Driving without ABS

[Paul in N FL]

So I've been spoiled by ABS since I've started driving and when I finally DD'd a 2004 Chevy Aveo for about a week while my CSB was shot I learned that sliding on locked on wheels is no fun when you're trying to stop from 45MPH.

So I did some thinking, since I'm talking the First Coast chapter of the BMWCCA's driving safety school again in November I thought I'd do it this time without ABS.

I still want to use my car but when I got the school I'd just pull the plug on the ABS Control Module and get taught how to threshold brake.

Thoughts, comments, insults?

[Xenocide]

For anyone who drives any vehicle w/o ABS for any period of time, I think this is one of the very best things to do. Each car will behave a little different, but the basics are the same. Learning not to turn and brake at the same time is huge even if you have ABS. In a car without ABS, it's much easier to feel the tires start to let go and understand what's going on.

I think learning how the car handles with the brakes locked up in a safe environment can only help your driving abilities.

As a side note, regardless of ABS or non-ABS I think everyone should be forced into a panic stop at least once during the licensing process. The first time I had to do a full panic stop I was terrified and I had no idea what was going on. I escaped without a wreck, but it was more luck than brains.

[tsmall07]

You'll be fine. I've done three HPDEs now with no ABS. It was surprising at first, but I'm used to it now.

[mtnman533]

I learnt to drive in a volvo with ABS, then I DD'd a pickup truck from the 70s. Learning how to threshold brake is the most valuable thing to learn behind the wheel IMO. It has saved my life a couple times...

I've never had a car to DD that has had ABS, and my next car (brand new made in 2011) wont either. So when I get in a car, I go to a back road and teach myself where the threshold is in the dry, and in the wet. Of course that changes with tires, and what car it is... so many variables.

Go out and learn, you wont regret it.

[Mike W.]

ABS is a good thing, but it doesn't always work, and E28s were very early in the ABS era. I hit the brakes hard a couple of times on wet pavement and it didn't seem like the ABS worked, it sure felt like I was skidding. I modulated the brakes and got out ok, but you both need the presence of mind to do something else if it doesn't work, and to use it, especially on less than perfect surfaces if it does. I've also been in a couple of situations in non ABS cars where it was a panic stop, I nailed the brakes and felt one axle lock up, pushed harder and felt the other lock up and felt more deacceleration. Yes I know threshold braking is the ideal, not locked up, but on dry pavement there isn't a whole lot of difference, and all sorts of things change brake balance on a less than new car, ranging from the surface on the rotor to the make and type of pads to the condition of the system.

I find in newer cars I'm into ABS much sooner than I was in the E28.

[Kenny Blankenship]

IMHO not having ABS on a Japanese economy car is scary. Not having it on a BMW is not that bad.

Quite a few years ago at a driving school, we did some braking exercises where we were testing ABS while trying to maneuver though cones to demonstrate steering control. To my surprise, when I slammed on the brakes on my M7 (which started as an '84 733i), my front brakes locked and I plowed though the cones. That's when I learned the 733s didn't have ABS.

I've never really had a circumstance on the track where I felt I needed ABS, but maybe I've been lucky. The brakes on BMWs are pretty well balanced, are easy to modulate and stop well. In fact I'm wondering if ABS might get in the way as I try to induce trailing throttle oversteer...

[oldskool]

When I was a kid we had to drive 10 miles to school in the snow without ABS!

[Paul in N FL]

ABS is a good thing, but it doesn't always work, and E28s were very early in the ABS era. I hit the brakes hard a couple of times on wet pavement and it didn't seem like the ABS worked, it sure felt like I was skidding. I modulated the brakes and got out ok, but you both need the presence of mind to do something else if it doesn't work, and to use it, especially on less than perfect surfaces if it does. I've also been in a couple of situations in non ABS cars where it was a panic stop, I nailed the brakes and felt one axle lock up, pushed harder and felt the other lock up and felt more deacceleration. Yes I know threshold braking is the ideal, not locked up, but on dry pavement there isn't a whole lot of difference, and all sorts of things change brake balance on a less than new car, ranging from the surface on the rotor to the make and type of pads to the condition of the system.

I find in newer cars I'm into ABS much sooner than I was in the E28.

I've found that happen in my car once or twice, but for the most part I can engage ABS whenever I feel.

So this November when I do this school I won't hurt anything by disabling ABS?

When I was a kid we had to drive 10 miles to school in the snow without ABS!

[tsmall07]

The brakes on BMWs are pretty well balanced, are easy to modulate and stop well.

I agree. I've been able to break noticeably harder without ABS than I could with it.

In fact I'm wondering if ABS might get in the way as I try to induce trailing throttle oversteer...

Trailing throttle oversteer has nothing to do with ABS or the brakes.

[Coldswede]

The brakes on BMWs are pretty well balanced, are easy to modulate and stop well.

I agree. I've been able to break noticeably harder without ABS than I could with it.

In fact I'm wondering if ABS might get in the way as I try to induce trailing throttle oversteer...

Trailing throttle oversteer has nothing to do with ABS or the brakes.

I'm quite sure Eric knows exactly what he meant and uses Corner Braking often to induce oversteer, he just used the wrong term. The effect can be similar though.

[tsmall07]

I'm quite sure Eric knows exactly what he meant and uses Corner Braking often to induce oversteer, he just used the wrong term. The effect can be similar though.

I'm sure he does, but there are lots of people reading this thread that don't.

[Coldswede]

On a slight OT, but very pertinent observation. Most people misuse ABS. When a lot of folks hear and feel the ABS working they ease up on the brakes assuming that is the proper thing to do. It is not. For the best use of ABS, brake hard, let the ABS do it's thing while you steer. You should not be able to brake harder without ABS than with ABS, you just get a different input. On hard, dry pavement the difference in stopping distance between ABS and non-ABS is very small. The purpose of ABS is not stopping distance but of control. Skidding tires do not provide the shortest stopping distance.

OP tracking your car with the ABS off is fine. You will learn a new skill which is always good.

If you really want an eye opener head off into a corner intending to let the ABS do it's thing. Only to find the ABS has failed, talk about an embarrassing, tire smoking experience!

[tsmall07]

You can stop faster with threshold braking than with utilizing an antiquated ABS system line the e28 has. It's a fact. The e28s system let's the wheels roll perhaps a bit more than it needs to to maintain control. ABS, like other stability controls, are a crutch that should not be relied on.

If you really want an eye opener head off into a corner intending to let the ABS do it's thing. Only to find the ABS has failed, talk about an embarrassing, tire smoking experience!

That is the truth! Luckily, the first time it happened to me, there was plenty of pavement to recover from the mistake.

[Paul in N FL]

On a slight OT, but very pertinent observation. Most people misuse ABS. When a lot of folks hear and feel the ABS working they ease up on the brakes assuming that is the proper thing to do. It is not. For the best use of ABS, brake hard, let the ABS do it's thing while you steer. You should not be able to brake harder without ABS than with ABS, you just get a different input. On hard, dry pavement the difference in stopping distance between ABS and non-ABS is very small. The purpose of ABS is not stopping distance but of control. Skidding tires do not provide the shortest stopping distance.

OP tracking your car with the ABS off is fine. You will learn a new skill which is always good.

If you really want an eye opener head off into a corner intending to let the ABS do it's thing. Only to find the ABS has failed, talk about an embarrassing, tire smoking experience!

That's how I do it, actually last time I did the driving school I had a bruise on the top of my foot from shoving the brake pedal as hard as I could.

[Tammer in Philly]

Agree with Tyler. You'll be fine. The only risk is a flat-spotted tire, but street tires are hard enough to not be damaged badly by one lockup.

The E36 ABS is much better than the E28s, and while it's nice to have, it still bothers me on track now and then. When I'm trail-braking, the unloaded inside front tire can lock easily and trigger the ABS, which once engaged is slow to release. It makes certain corners quite challenging, particularly where elevation changes unload one side of the car after turn-in.

-tammer

[tsmall07]

The E36 ABS is much better than the E28s, and while it's nice to have, it still bothers me on track now and then.

Are you allowed to disable ABS for spec e36?

[Tammer in Philly]

The E36 ABS is much better than the E28s, and while it's nice to have, it still bothers me on track now and then.

Are you allowed to disable ABS for spec e36?

No. When my ABS engages the pedal sinks and modulation becomes more difficult. The sinking pedal is a common E36 brake system issue on the track. I have tried replacing lots of parts in the system (master cylinder, booster check valve and vacuum hose, calipers, lines) to no avail. The brakes work very well, but the pedal behavior is disconcerting. The only components left are ABS pump and booster--both expensive. There is no reason to think the booster is failing, and even if it did, pedal travel shouldn't change, though required force might.

Either way, there is much less of a problem when I can stay out of the ABS, which is most of the time. One can threshold brake even with ABS. It's nice to know that if I overshoot, I won't ruin an expensive tire.

-tammer

[vinceg101]

IMHO not having ABS on a Japanese economy car is scary. Not having it on a BMW is not that bad.

Quite a few years ago at a driving school, we did some braking exercises where we were testing ABS while trying to maneuver though cones to demonstrate steering control. To my surprise, when I slammed on the brakes on my M7 (which started as an '84 733i), my front brakes locked and I plowed though the cones. That's when I learned the 733s didn't have ABS.

I've never really had a circumstance on the track where I felt I needed ABS, but maybe I've been lucky. The brakes on BMWs are pretty well balanced, are easy to modulate and stop well. In fact I'm wondering if ABS might get in the way as I try to induce trailing throttle oversteer...

I had a similar experience when I did the Car Control Clinic at O'Fest '04, albeit I got to watch the one person in our group without ABS. Same braking and maneuvering course, we all watched the one guy with a pre-ABS car (an '84 325is) plow through the cones when he supposed to be braking and turning. Poor instructor holding the flag had hop back up on the fence, several times. A chant went through the rest of group as we watched: "We like our ABS, we like our ABS, we like our ABS". It was an eye-opening experience for the driver as well as the rest of us. By his own admission, he didn't really know how to threshold brake, but he learned by the end of the day.
The ABS on the '88 worked like a charm, even on the wet skid pad.

[Cactus]

I need to find a particular reference as proof, but cars are almost always faster (at a track or AutoX) with ABS than without it. They design ABS systems to kick on after the threshold point, so if you're riding on the limit just before ABS kicks in, that's when your binders are doing the best work. Plus the pulsing is often easier to identify than locked wheels.

My 528e DD doesn't have ABS, and being able to drive without it is a skill everybody should have. First time I ever had to do a panic stop was in a vehicle with ABS, but it was damp, and I hit the brakes so hard I still locked up the wheels. Still managed to stop... just.

[C.R. Krieger]

OK; some misinformation floating around here. For those trying to sort it all out, here are the relevant points:

1) A rolling tire brakes better than a sliding tire Mike, when a second axle breaks loose, the car does NOT decelerate faster; it decelerates slower. Sliding friction is lower than static friction and the sliding end of the car leads. This is part of the reason why all brake systems are biased toward the front: you slide straight when the fronts lock. You spin when the rears lock.

2) Threshold braking is better (shorter) than ABS braking However, this requires training and experience. A skilled threshold braker can outbrake an ABS braked car. I can (and have), but it's not real easy and it's not much of a difference. Less than 0.05G difference in deceleration and maybe a few feet shorter. Once the surface is wet or slippery, all bets are off. Even the most skilled driver will have difficulty threshold braking on a slick surface. Watch F1 in the rain for proof of this.

3) You should never try to modulate ABS braking That's what gets people killed. If your ABS is working, there is only one situation where you can modulate and make it slightly better: on newly fallen snow, where skidding repeatedly can build up small snow wedges in front of the wheels. Yeah; that doesn't do much, so even then, you gotta know what you're doing.

Now, while everyone says the big advantage to ABS is that you can steer while braking, that's not exactly true most of the time. When the ABS is engaged, the tires are at their traction limit under braking. (IIRC, the percent slip for the E28 was 25%) Asking them to do something else at the same time (steering) is just asking for a front slide. You can steer a little while ABS braking, but not much. The rule at every school I've ever been to is: Brake in a straight line.

As for threshold braking, I think everyone should learn it. You can do it even with ABS because the ABS doesn't start to work until you're past the threshold. So, if you want to learn it, there's no need to disable the ABS. Use it as your indicator that you'd be sliding when it kicks in and modulate better next time. You should be able to hear and feel when the tires are about to let go. If you press a little harder and the ABS kicks in when you think it should, then you've probably got it.

[athayer187]

For a street car, where you're most likely to have an "oh shit" type of stop, ABS is invaluable. If a deer jumps out in front of you quickly, you had better be the best threshold braker of all time to match ABS stopping distance.

For the track, I could go either way.

[tsmall07]

For a street car, where you're most likely to have an "oh shit" type of stop, ABS is invaluable. If a deer jumps out in front of you quickly, you had better be the best threshold braker of all time to match ABS stopping distance.

That's true. That is part of the reason that I don't DD the e28 anymore.

[1st 5er]

If you really want an eye opener head off into a corner intending to let the ABS do it's thing. Only to find the ABS has failed, talk about an embarrassing, tire smoking experience!

BTDT in my ///M5 at near full throttle. I still get ribbed about it.

Great topic, one I need experience in.

[wkohler]

I flat-spotted all four tires on my 533 one night on I-10 when some stupid-assed person quickly changing lanes at my door, then slammed on their brakes when I honked, so I locked them up and had quite a long skid. 1100 miles later, I still have a wicked vibration. The tires only had 300 miles on them.

[LSD3.73]

My first car was an 83 320i, no power brakes(or abs), no power steering, 5spd, lsd of some sort. My birthday is in February so there was plenty of snow/ on the ground here in mn. Not gonna lie I miss the feel of no power steering/brakes very much. I learned you can't stop and turn by barely missing my mailbox at 4am... I'd say the most scary lesson I learned is that matching revs for a good downshift is absolutely crucial in a rwd car in slick conditions!!!! You will be fine, just take your time to get a feel for it and PRACTICE! You may even soon grow to prefere non abs braking, there is much better feel without it and braking distances can be shorter when you learn how to do controlled 4wheel skids:) hell there is a reason rally cars don't have abs!

[LSD3.73]

I flat-spotted all four tires on my 533 one night on I-10 when some stupid-assed person quickly changing lanes at my door, then slammed on their brakes when I honked, so I locked them up and had quite a long skid. 1100 miles later, I still have a wicked vibration. The tires only had 300 miles on them.

That pisses me off!!!! Happened to me with tires that only had 5k on em and I don't haveq $ to buy new tires all the time so I just balanced them the beat I could and drove em with slightly higher pressures. They eventually smoothed out enough to not bother...

[Cactus]

hell there is a reason rally cars don't have abs!

Actually, depending on the surface, skidding to a stop is quicker than rolling. That's never the case on a road. Also rally cars typically have rear brake bias, so they can control steering angles with the brakes. Want to turn tighter? Give it more slow pedal.

[LSD3.73]

hell there is a reason rally cars don't have abs!

Actually, depending on the surface, skidding to a stop is quicker than rolling. That's never the case on a road. Also rally cars typically have rear brake bias, so they can control steering angles with the brakes. Want to turn tighter? Give it more slow pedal.

a case could be setting up a four wheel drift because your going to fast to make it in any other fashion...?

[mechacode]

Never cared for abs and none of my personal vehicles have it/have it working. I learned how to brake properly the first time I slid through an intersection in winter right after I got my temps. I'd recommend ABS to anyone that didn't want to take the time to properly learn how to drive though, aka most of the drivers on the road driving people carriers. I can see how it would be beneficial in racing events but if I ever came across an all or nothing event on the road, I'd rather be able to spin the ass end around to cushion an impact rather than have to decide whether I or the passenger die due to deciding which way to turn while the ABS takes it's time slowing the car.

[Paul in N FL]

Never cared for abs and none of my personal vehicles have it/have it working. I learned how to brake properly the first time I slid through an intersection in winter right after I got my temps. I'd recommend ABS to anyone that didn't want to take the time to properly learn how to drive though, aka most of the drivers on the road driving people carriers. I can see how it would be beneficial in racing events but if I ever came across an all or nothing event on the road, I'd rather be able to spin the ass end around to cushion an impact rather than have to decide whether I or the passenger die due to deciding which way to turn while the ABS takes it's time slowing the car.

I always thought that too, if I were ever in a situation like a head on collision I wanna say I spin around using the ebrake.