Wasted Spark and Aftermarket Ignition Boxes

[Brad D.]

Since the topic comes up from time to time and is worth discussing in its own thread, I am starting this here so we can keep the information in one spot. Please chime in if you are running a wasted spark system or an aftermarket ignition unit.

Here are a couple of good links that describe the benefits and purpose of wasted spark ignitions for those who want to learn more.
Waste Spark 1
Waste Spark 2

Aftermarket Ignition boxes like the MSD 6A unit can also be used to increase the performance of the stock coil when using either Megasquirt of Motronic.

For the record I am using the stock Bosch coil and NGK BKR7E plugs gapped at 0.025" and at 9psi I haven't had any issues with spark blowout. I've been contemplating either getting an MSD 6A box or switch to wasted spark but don't know which route I'm going to take yet. Let the discussion begin.

[Shadow]

Might be offtopic, but it's sorta dumb to get an cdi, yet still
run a stock coil.

[bornagain]

well i will be running msd 6a with blaster 2 coil. I am still considering moving to wasted spark. i do like the maintenace free part of it and the extra reliability of it, but there are other things to consider like once again riping apart my wiring in order to run the signal wires and more modifications to the megasquirt. Thank you brad for bringing this to the light because i am curious as to what everyone else thinks.

btw i have a mildly ported exhaust side of my head, intake i didnt touch and i am planning on running max boost with my setup. which should be around 21psi. ill let you know if i have any blow out at high load rpm. if so i might have a msd and blaster coil to sell you brad. haha.

[FirstFives Dictator]

I'm not happy with the reliability of modern MSD boxes.
I wonder if the Mallory boxes are more reliable?

[jdb]

I'm not happy with the reliability of modern MSD boxes.
I wonder if the Mallory boxes are more reliable?

I have had no issues with MSD 6 series boxes or the window switches.
But have had two Mallory Hyfire boxes have fail, but they were both still under warranty so they did not leave a permanent whole in my pocket.

Jeff

[turbodan]

I'd stick with the stock inductive igniton. I'm still having to gap my plugs way down to run high boost, and I go through things like caps and rotors a lot quicker. I've never seen sparks jumping through the back of a distributor cap with the stock ignition.

[Brad D.]

I'd stick with the stock inductive igniton. I'm still having to gap my plugs way down to run high boost, and I go through things like caps and rotors a lot quicker. I've never seen sparks jumping through the back of a distributor cap with the stock ignition.

Those issues are with your MSD 6A box? Are you now feeling like the MSD box really isn't worth the effort or money? If so I guess the next step would be a WS system that does away with the dizzy entirely.

[turbodan]

I got about a year of daily driving out of my last cap. It ended up arcing through the back to the dust cap and two of the three bolts that mount it to the head.

I could probably get a little more out of them if I got rid of the dust cover and the big flat washers that hold it on.

[Brad D.]

Doing a little reading on e30 tech it seems that Summit offers a rebadged version of Malloy's Hyfire 6A system.
Summit Racing Street & Strip® Multi-Spark Digital CD Ignition
This conclusion was drawn from Russianblue's research of the installation manual.

This is recommended to be used with their coil
Summit CD Coil



My guess is that it will perform as well as an MSD unit and costs a bit less for those interested in this route. From a simplicity standpoint, a CDI system is the easiest route.
Dan, would you say you noticed any improvements with your MSD box?

[turbodan]

The car seemed to run slightly better under high manifold vacuum conditions. The difference was slight enough it could have been completely imaginary.

One thing the 6A-Blaster 2 combo is good for is taking the load off of your coil drivers. I dont have to worry about those anymore. Other than that it didn't do much. If I could run a larger gap it'd be worth it but the stock ignition components dont seem to be able to contain a whole lot of additional voltage.

[douginky]

I'd like to join in. I'm running a haltech with msd 6a, blaster coil and dizzy. It's working fine, but have also considered wasted spark.
Do most of the coil packs like the accel on the E9 page require a seperate ignitor? If so, what do most people use?

[M. Holtmeier]

I've been looking for writeups on the coil packs and how megasquirt is controlling them. I remember seeing a write up about how to modify a GM DIS coil pack base so you can add 2 additional FETs to MS and let it control the coils instead of wiring a vr sensor,etc. into the ignition module. Can this be done with the Ford EDIS module?

[Brad D.]

Using the GM coils seems pretty simple. As you mentioned, it requires the addition of two extra coil drivers. If you have the Glen's Garage idle board, it already has a spot for two extra drivers and the third is already on MS. Using the GM coil backing plate it needs to be modded something like this.



From a bit of reading on e30tech, it appears you can use an EDIS coil pack the same way, without using any additional EDIS parts, just using MS to trigger them. They require the same basic connections as the diagram above. The issue though seems that the stock ones require high dwell times and may still run out of charge time at higher rpm. If you go with an EDIS coil, I would use one like 6 throttles.

[FirstFives Dictator]

I had at least one customer use the Summit box with good results.

I guess Mallory isn't more reliable either.

[M. Holtmeier]

That's the exact picture I had in my head, thanks!

Another possibility for the gm dual tower coil packs.


msd 8224 coil pack

msd 8870 base

wiring instructions

and a pic of the empty coil driver positions on the gg board.

I'm going to convert my MS1 to wasted spark first then upgrade to MS2 and retune.


Do all the ignition/trigger settings stay the same, and all you do is tell MS that it needs to fire 2 more coils? I've been switching back and forth between 1 and 2 and the settings are very different.

[FirstFives Dictator]

BTW, the dwell time for MSD EDIS and standard EDIS seem very different. Be careful if you use the MSD version and start small (2 msecs or less)

[e30-m30_kid89]

I

there are the GM coil packs which are easy to use and a few stanalones use em, but i recently switched over to this bosch coil pack used on vauxhall v6's:



The beaut of these is you can use your stock wires where with GM coil packs you will need new wires and add those bigger thingys on top(sorry i don't know the proper term)

My buddy uses them as well and he said it's great, I still have to wire up mine.

Taken from the other thread. I have always been running wasted spark since i first initially did my MS2 build and its been working fine and its super easy to setup. I'm looking forward to using the coil pack above since with the GM hardware you will need new spark plug wires while with these you can use stock, keeping costs down. Also, with the 2 universal sets i've had(Accel and Taylor) the wires just could not take the heat and were dropping spark and just arcing all over like crazy which sent me crazy trying track down what was the cause of the rough running/misfires.

Those 2-tower MSD coils shown are expensive once you get a set of 3, and do not give any better performance over the stock ones.

[M. Holtmeier]

Initially, the gm style msd coils packs seem expensive. Two points that give them a little bang for your buck; I do like how it gives you the freedom to mount each pack irrespectively of the others and if you have a failure on one cylinder it only costs you half to replace the bad coil, instead of the whole edis unit. That is if you going to the junk yard is simply out of the question. I actually picked up a complete gm dis coil pack, extra harnesses and a spare coil for $25. At that price, I have no issue with making up a set of wires to properly fit. Plug wires are a maintenance item.

[FirstFives Dictator]

I wish I could buy that 6 cylinder Bosch coil pack in the USA

[M. Holtmeier]

Why, what's so special about it?

[Gunni]

That coilpack can be found on Opel/Vauxhall Vectras in europe.

It supports well above 600hp run on some RB nissan engines,
with normal inductive ignition.

It´s about $50 on ebay.co.uk
I run this on all wasted spark applications I do on 6cyl BMW´s
And it´s simply the cheapest thing I know of.

[FirstFives Dictator]

Why, what's so special about it?

What US market car did it come on?

I can't think of a European car in this market with 6 cylinder coil packs.

[Shadow]

VW Audi have 6cyl coipacks.

[George]

The Mark IV VW V6 uses them:



Not cheap though: My wholesale price is $198

[e30-m30_kid89]

Holy crap that's a lot if $198 is whole sale....my bosch coil pack more and more looks like the best bang for buck option out there for me IMO.

3 new OE replacement Delphi coil towers for the GM setup run me $51ea. The MSD replacements are about $75each. The bosch coil pack shipped from the UK ran me about ~$85 shipped to my door. I'll probably get another as a spare.

[FirstFives Dictator]

Why, what's so special about it?

In one package; easy to make wires unlike Ford coils

[Brad D.]

It appears that the 1997 -1998 Cadillac Catera (an Opel) has the correct Bosch 6 cylinder coil. Not cheap, but cheaper than the one mentioned. You would still need to source the connector though.

Cadillac Catera Coil

[M. Holtmeier]

I don't know, they just seem like coils to me. Is this like the blue rag in the tool kit? Are they that much more powerful than stock gm coils? Besides, my car is red, so I got to have some red coils, you know. How is having the correct european style/available coil pack make a difference when we're talking turbochargers and standalones?

So far, I've got $41 into my wasted spark (and 30 days to exchange any non functioning coils at the yunk jard) plus whatever wires will cost. I think wires to fit the gm coil towers will be cheaper than OE bmw wires.

[Brad D.]

I doubt they're any stronger, I think the draw is that you can use the stock plug wires.

[Brad D.]

Well, I pulled the trigger on a set of MSD 8224 coils and a set of plug wires that will work with them as well as ordering enough coil drivers to make it all work. I picked up a GM backing plate yesterday at PnP to mount on the firewall. The goal here is to have the wires routed in the stock loom and have it look as stealthy as possible given three giant red ignition coils. Now I just need to find a sweet block off plate for the dizzy.