Which modern (95+) BMW is the US M5 closest to speed-wise?

[mojocoggo]

Stock drivetrain, modded suspension/brakes can be taken into consideration. In a straight line vs. a windy mountain road course... What modern BMW would you compare it to?

[DaRedRocket]

None.

[M5ZEALOT]

Stock drivetrain, modded suspension/brakes can be taken into consideration. In a straight line vs. a windy mountain road course... What modern BMW would you compare it to?

In a straight line....the 88 M5 with a stock S38 recorded a top speed of 147 MPH w/ only 1,300+ on the clock according to a Car & Driver test in 1987 (3:91 rear end) Several Euro Mags have recorded spends over 152 MPH with 3:73 read end gears. I can tell you that I have pegged my speedo a couple of times and hit redline in 5th gear (3.9 stroker Dinan chip, 7,300 rpm cut off) I'm not sure how accurate the speedo is but I'm sure the car reached over 150 MPH and wanted to keep going. So an E28 M5 can easily top out an unmodified 95 E36 M3 since they have a governor limited speed of 137 MPH.

[Justin_FL]

I assume you are asking about an E28 M5? My sport package 2001 530i w/ 5spd feels like it will give my E28 M5 a DAMN good run for the money in a drag race.

I believe the factory listing for the 530i is 0-60 of 6.7 seconds which compares to the M5. My 530i weighs basically the same as a portly US E28 M5. And stock for stock, I have no question a sport pack I-6 E39 will lay the smack down in the corners. The suspension design is really that much better. Both cars can benefit from aftermarket suspension setups, especially the E39 to tone down the understeer. I have not driven a stock E28 M5 as far as the suspension goes, but mine has H&R/Bilstein sports w/ SLS delete on a completely rebuilt suspension. Certainly more fun and responsive than my 530i, given that the 530i is nearing 80K and needs some suspension work. Even so, the 530i is much easier to drive fast.

None of this means an E28 M5 isn't a fun car to drive, though! The S38 "in the zone" does make more torque/HP than a 3.0L M54, so things might be less interesting on an actual timed lap.

[cgraff]

Stock for stock, actually, a E36 M3 is *just* a tad bit faster (0-60 in 5.6-5.9 seconds depending), and it's about the same power to weight ratios (256 bhp vs 240 bhp and ~3400 lbs vs ~3200 lbs and change, respectively), and very similar gearing.

An E46 330i is probably just as fast, maybe a touch slower.

Both the E36 and E46 have more modern suspensions and much better steering. So handling on those is far superior. I can say this for a fact after autoxing stock and modified E36s, E46s, and E28s. The only time my M535i beat E36 M3s or E46 330s is if they were stock, and I had my Hartges, done-up suspension, and strut tower bars. But a modified E36 M3? Pffft. Forget it.

A modified E36 M3 will eat a modified E28 M5 (both US cars) for lunch, given similar *bolt-on* modifications and equal drivers. Superior suspension design, superior steering, slightly lighter, far broader torque curve on the motor, and similar bhp.

-Chris

[jamestr]

I daily drive my M5 to my job as a BMW mechanic. At work, I've basically driven everything built in the last 20 years. My Dad drives a '98 M3 that has a Conforti chip and Euro. spec. air intake. The M5's also Conforti'd and it will beat the M3 in a straight line. If I remember correctly, it's faster to 60 and in the 1/4 mile than any non M BMW before the 335i. On most road courses an E28 M5 will turn faster laps than an E46 330i and should beat an E36 M3 on some of the faster tracks. Autocrossing really isn't the E28's forte.

[Jon in Richmond]

CAMRY!

[Tucker]

I drive a huge variety of BMW's every day at work as well, so it's pretty easy to make a direct comparison...Stock, I'd compare the acceleration to a 3.0 E36 M3, easy. Even though we've got more displacement, the fun really starts in the middle of the rev range up to redline, similar to the S50. I had a roll-on in 2nd gear a couple weeks back with an E46 M3 Cab, and with the Miller MAF I gotta say my car really didn't give up much As far as handling, with stock US suspension it probably stacks up best against a non-M E36 sedan.

[cgraff]

I daily drive my M5 to my job as a BMW mechanic. At work, I've basically driven everything built in the last 20 years. My Dad drives a '98 M3 that has a Conforti chip and Euro. spec. air intake. The M5's also Conforti'd and it will beat the M3 in a straight line. If I remember correctly, it's faster to 60 and in the 1/4 mile than any non M BMW before the 335i. On most road courses an E28 M5 will turn faster laps than an E46 330i and should beat an E36 M3 on some of the faster tracks. Autocrossing really isn't the E28's forte.

First of all, you're comparing modified cars. There's no point in doing so unless you have timeslips to prove one to one comparison. Otherwise you're just speculating.

And there's no way that an E28 M5 stock for stock will compare to a lighter E36 M3 or E46 330i on the track given it's far more antiquainted suspension and recirc ball steering. Some british car mag ran a comparison article of the 20 M-cars built over the last few years (including M535s and M635s, as well as the newer cars) and took them through their paces, and basically said came out with that conclusion. I can try digging it out for you if you want.

And no, stock for stock an E28 US M5 is not a match for a E36 M3. It's close, particularly for the 3.0, but not a match for the 3.2 M3.

Here's some FACTS:

E28 M5:
C&D 0-60: 6.3 seconds
C&D 1/4 mile: 14.6 sec / 95 mph
C&D top speed: 147 mph

E36 M3 3.0:
C&D 0-60: 5.5 sec
C&D 1/4 mile: 14.2 sec / 98 mph
Top speed *electronically limited* to 137 mph
R&T 0-60: 6.0 sec
R&T 1/4 mile: 14.6 sec / 96 mph

E36 M3 3.2 4-dr:
MT 0-60: 5.5 sec
MT 1/4 mile: 14.0 sec / 99.2 mph

BMW specs:
'05 E46 330i 4-dr 0-60: 6.4 sec
'05 E46 330i ZHP 4-dr 0-60: 5.9 sec
'06 E90 330i 4-dr 0-60: 6.1 sec

And if you want, you can look at actual timeslips for 330s here:

http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--330i-Drag-Racing.html

...of course take it with a grain of salt, because you're dealing with real people, not test drivers, but nonetheless this gives you a good idea that E46 330s run mid to high 14s at mid 90s, almost identical to the E28 M5, and that 330 ZHPs are about 1/3 to 1/2 a second faster an high 90s, slightly edging out the E28 M5, but not quite getting to E36 M3 3.2 territory. And that's honestly not surprising.

Again, this is stock for stock.

-Chris

[M5ZEALOT]

I daily drive my M5 to my job as a BMW mechanic. At work, I've basically driven everything built in the last 20 years. My Dad drives a '98 M3 that has a Conforti chip and Euro. spec. air intake. The M5's also Conforti'd and it will beat the M3 in a straight line. If I remember correctly, it's faster to 60 and in the 1/4 mile than any non M BMW before the 335i. On most road courses an E28 M5 will turn faster laps than an E46 330i and should beat an E36 M3 on some of the faster tracks. Autocrossing really isn't the E28's forte.

First of all, you're comparing modified cars. There's no point in doing so unless you have timeslips to prove one to one comparison. Otherwise you're just speculating.

And there's no way that an E28 M5 stock for stock will compare to a lighter E36 M3 or E46 330i on the track given it's far more antiquainted suspension and recirc ball steering. Some british car mag ran a comparison article of the 20 M-cars built over the last few years (including M535s and M635s, as well as the newer cars) and took them through their paces, and basically said came out with that conclusion. I can try digging it out for you if you want.

And no, stock for stock an E28 US M5 is not a match for a E36 M3. It's close, particularly for the 3.0, but not a match for the 3.2 M3.

Here's some FACTS:

E28 M5:
C&D 0-60: 6.3 seconds
C&D 1/4 mile: 14.6 sec / 95 mph
C&D top speed: 147 mph

E36 M3 3.0:
C&D 0-60: 5.5 sec
C&D 1/4 mile: 14.2 sec / 98 mph
Top speed *electronically limited* to 137 mph
R&T 0-60: 6.0 sec
R&T 1/4 mile: 14.6 sec / 96 mph

E36 M3 3.2 4-dr:
MT 0-60: 5.5 sec
MT 1/4 mile: 14.0 sec / 99.2 mph

BMW specs:
'05 E46 330i 4-dr 0-60: 6.4 sec
'05 E46 330i ZHP 4-dr 0-60: 5.9 sec
'06 E90 330i 4-dr 0-60: 6.1 sec

And if you want, you can look at actual timeslips for 330s here:

http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--330i-Drag-Racing.html

...of course take it with a grain of salt, because you're dealing with real people, not test drivers, but nonetheless this gives you a good idea that E46 330s run mid to high 14s at mid 90s, almost identical to the E28 M5, and that 330 ZHPs are about 1/3 to 1/2 a second faster an high 90s, slightly edging out the E28 M5, but not quite getting to E36 M3 3.2 territory. And that's honestly not surprising.

Again, this is stock for stock.

-Chris

I agree, if the cars were driven by the same "above average" driver. My co-worker couldn't catch me off the line in his 95 M3 before I got my 3.9 engine, no matter how hard he tried. We have to consider driver skill (and balls if you are doing this on the street) Unfortunately, my co-worker has no clue about power bands and speed shifting, clutch slipping etc. The only way he ( or any other unskilled driver) can hope to win any impromtu race is letting a computer shift for him (SMG). I know this off the "topic" but worth considering when the subject what car is faster right? Just something to throw into the discussion.

[cgraff]

I agree, if the cars were driven by the same "above average" driver. My co-worker couldn't catch me off the line in his 95 M3 before I got my 3.9 engine, no matter how hard he tried. We have to consider driver skill (and balls if you are doing this on the street) Unfortunately, my co-worker has no clue about power bands and speed shifting, clutch slipping etc. The only way he ( or any other unskilled driver) can hope to win any impromtu race is letting a computer shift for him (SMG). I know this off the "topic" but worth considering when the subject what car is faster right? Just something to throw into the discussion.

Good point. From dragtimes.com you can see that even accounting for vehicle variability, driver ability makes a big difference in many respects, and particularly in drag racing at the start line and shifting at the right power bands. Or at least a good driver ought to know that he has to shift at the right power bands - and at least attempt to do it.

-Chris

[Revhead]

And there's no way that an E28 M5 stock for stock will compare to a lighter E36 M3 or E46 330i on the track given it's far more antiquainted suspension and recirc ball steering. Some british car mag ran a comparison article of the 20 M-cars built over the last few years (including M535s and M635s, as well as the newer cars) and took them through their paces, and basically said came out with that conclusion. I can try digging it out for you if you want.

-Chris

The car mag was Top Gear magazine. The interesting thing is that Steve Soper (ex British Touring Car champion) loved the E28 M535i so much he placed it fifth reporting how balanced it was and I quote:

"Feels so fresh. Has a lovely balance to it - there's some measured understeer, then you can use the throttle to get the nose in and step the tail out. I really didn't think i'd like it. Deserves fifth place"

He actually put the M5 in fifteenth place reporting that it had higher approach speeds to corners but was not as balanced in them as the M535i which is fair enough as they carry a bit more weight at the front. This appeared to be an 86 UK car which had softer Sachs shocks and thicker rollbars, so maybe the stiffer Bilsteins on the M535i are better?

What did he say about the E36 M3? (remember this was the superior euro engined 286bhp 3.0):

"Quicker than the M3 it replaced (E30). Even so it leaves me feeling cluttered - unless you get it absolutely perfectly balanced entering a corner you're going to need armfuls of opposite lock everywhere" hence 16th/20

This doesn't sound like a better car than the E28 does it?
There is no way an E36 steers better than an E28. Nowhere near the same feedback, though they're much better than an awful E30 with four turns lock to lock. Certainly they "hold the road" better but this isn't the same as handling is it. When an E36 does let go they're very hard to recover where a looser E28 can be caught. E36's are dull and not communicative but the E46 is a bit better.

Yes these old E28's are inferior to modern BMW's but that's half the fun - upsetting people in newer cars.
I pull a car and a half length on a E46 330ci manual 0-70mph in my stock 286bhp M5. These are very common in the UK and easy cannon fodder.

[Tammer in Philly]

When an E36 does let go they're very hard to recover where a looser E28 can be caught. E36's are dull and not communicative but the E46 is a bit better.

I disagree with that 100%. The reason the E36 seems to break away faster is that its cornering limits are much higher (given equal tires, and its suspension geometry stays closer to the ideal range as you approach those limits. It doesn't broadcast any less information, you just have to be listening to a different frequency.

The E28 is more fun to drive in many ways, but it is almost always slower. One thing I will say, though; an E28 M5 in its powerband is faster than an E36 M3 (US models), even ones that have been mildly worked. Off-peak, though, it gets stomped all over and therefore the E36 is faster in nearly every situation. I was able to close on a modded E36 M3 on 245-wide R-comps up Watkins Glen's uphill esses in my E28 M5 on 225 street tires. The tires are really irrelevant as it was full-throttle from T1 through the top of the esses for both of us. The M3 had a better pilot than me, as well, so that wasn't it--but I had to back out of the throttle at the top of the hill to stay out of his rear bumper. Of course, once we hit the chicane at the end of the straight, he was gone.

-tammer

[Randomg]

I can't compare handling between the e36 and the e28, but at my last track day, with a JC chip, the guy I talked to in an e36 m3 who was behind me most of the time said he got pulled on in the straights. For people saying that an e36 is even or slightly faster I disagree with based on my experience. Maybe from a stop due to the better suspension and more rubber, but once the m5 gets going, from what I've seen it beats the e36.

I think it's fair to throw in a dinan or jc chip when talking here, it's a $250 part that gives like 20 hp (at least that's what I figured when getting 235 to the wheels), and most cars have one.

"Feels so fresh. Has a lovely balance to it - there's some measured understeer, then you can use the throttle to get the nose in and step the tail out. I really didn't think i'd like it. Deserves fifth place"

To be honest, this is how my m5 feels with the euro springs and bilsteins, mild understeer on the way in, lifting can bring the nose in as well as enough throttle. I'm not sure how it could get much better.

[cgraff]

When an E36 does let go they're very hard to recover where a looser E28 can be caught. E36's are dull and not communicative but the E46 is a bit better.

I disagree with that 100%. The reason the E36 seems to break away faster is that its cornering limits are much higher (given equal tires, and its suspension geometry stays closer to the ideal range as you approach those limits. It doesn't broadcast any less information, you just have to be listening to a different frequency.

+1

In addition, the E36 M3 won a C&D test as the 'best handling car in America'. One of the things C&D praised over a lot of other higher end sports cars was the E36's steering.

I never saw any mags highlight the E28's steering communicativeness and feeling. In fact they derided the on-center numbness.

The E28 is more fun to drive in many ways, but it is almost always slower. One thing I will say, though; an E28 M5 in its powerband is faster than an E36 M3 (US models), even ones that have been mildly worked. Off-peak, though, it gets stomped all over and therefore the E36 is faster in nearly every situation. I was able to close on a modded E36 M3 on 245-wide R-comps up Watkins Glen's uphill esses in my E28 M5 on 225 street tires. The tires are really irrelevant as it was full-throttle from T1 through the top of the esses for both of us. The M3 had a better pilot than me, as well, so that wasn't it--but I had to back out of the throttle at the top of the hill to stay out of his rear bumper. Of course, once we hit the chicane at the end of the straight, he was gone.

Very true. In addition, a Euro M5/M6 in its powerband is quite an impressive machine.

The thing is though, the E36 M3 S50 and S52 USA motors, while down 500 or 300 cc (respectively) have a VERY good and flat torque curve. It doesn't 'come on cam' anywhere near as much as the S38 and M88. And this is probably why you'll have situations on track where 60-90 mph or 70-100 mph, the M5 will pull on the E36 M3. It all has to do with gearing and what part of the torque band you're in, and therefore what wheel bhp you're putting down.

Also, that a euro M5 will pull on a E46 330i is no big news. I've already been shown that a US M5 stock for stock is nearly identical, if not just a tad better than the 330s, so a euro one will pull on it.

-Chris

[cgraff]

I was able to close on a modded E36 M3 on 245-wide R-comps up Watkins Glen's uphill esses in my E28 M5 on 225 street tires. The tires are really irrelevant as it was full-throttle from T1 through the top of the esses for both of us.
-tammer

On a similar note, the key to track work is EXIT speed.

Although I haven't been on a track very recently, I can tell you that around a few of my favorite on-ramps that I know like the back of my hand, I will pull on all the Subies, M3s, M5s, and Vettes (yes, the new ones, but not the LS6 motored ones). It's all to do with the fact that my exit speed is 10-20 mph faster. So I'll come out of the corner up ahead and pulling. But then all those drivers will end up simply stomping the gas and pulling on by once on the straight and narrow. Faint praise for having been shaded by a lowly ZHP or E28 in the corner.

-Chris

[cgraff]

And there's no way that an E28 M5 stock for stock will compare to a lighter E36 M3 or E46 330i on the track given it's far more antiquainted suspension and recirc ball steering. Some british car mag ran a comparison article of the 20 M-cars built over the last few years (including M535s and M635s, as well as the newer cars) and took them through their paces, and basically said came out with that conclusion. I can try digging it out for you if you want.

-Chris

The car mag was Top Gear magazine. The interesting thing is that Steve Soper (ex British Touring Car champion) loved the E28 M535i so much he placed it fifth reporting how balanced it was and I quote:

There was another article. Not Top Gear - a BMW only one. This one may have been older. That's the one I was thinking about.

[Randomg]

I did a search on e36 m3 dyno graphs looked at a few that all looked pretty similar and came up with this as the easiest to read:




If you compare this to my dyno graph (ignore numbers, just look at the curve):



These are both JC chipped cars, so you can say "well that doesn't count then" if you want, but to me these torque curves look pretty similar, the s38 is down by about 10 lb-ft from 2k-3k, but once above that (which is where you're most likely to be on a track or during spirited driving) the s38 ramps up quicker, and stays flatter. At the very least, talking like the s38 is dead out of its power band seems like a hell of an overstatement.

[cgraff]

1. I'm not going to say that the E28 M5 is a dog out of it's power band, but it's far more peaky than the E36 M3 3.2 motor.

2. I plotted your graphs of the M3 (is it a 3.0 or 3.2 motor??) and the M5. See below. It's not that surprising to see that the 3.5 liter M5 motor does produce more torque than the M3. It just does it at a higher RPM. You've got at least 300cc more, and multi-throttle intake, and 'mini headers'. The head design isn't that much different so of course you should see a good amount of difference.

http://www.m535i.org/Misc-Chris/E36%20M ... 0chips.JPG



If you're going to spend your time between 4.5k and 6k RPM, yeah, the E28 M5 motor will pull an E36 M3. The ~100-200 lbs an E28 M5 has over the E36 is probably not enough to have the E36 pull the E28. But where are you going to spend most of your time doing 4.5k and 6.0k RPM? At the track. So you're very right, track work where you're spending time at 5k RPM, the E28 M5 will pull (so long as you're at speeds where aero drag won't take much effect.

The 0-60 and quarter mile times, remember deal with a good amount of low end torque to get the car moving, and it's where mass plays a bigger role. So if you had the two cars standing side by side at 60 mph at 4.5k rpm, yeah, the E28 M5 will pull. If you start from a dig, where the lighter weight and more torque of the M3 motor will help, the M3 will pull.


-Chris[/img]

[Arjun]

does anyone have any info on what an e28 with the s38b36 would do performance wise.my e28 518 is going o get the s38b36 from an e34m5 rated at 315bhp standard.