Redline SI-1 Fuel Cleaner - Knocking/Pinging

[CT533i]

Anyone use Redline SI-1 Fuel cleaner on a regular basis? I've been using it for about 2 years as recommended by a BMW CCA journalist.

My car is an automatic, and rarely see's more than 3,000 rpm in normal driving. I have always used premium fuel (93+ oct) - bare in mind the compression is 8.8:1 (near the threshold for requiring premium). When on a hill, between 2,500-3,500 I occasionally hear knocking/pinging. It has been less after using Redline SI-1, but it is still there. (I'm sure if I drove the hell out of it all the time, it would be less). I use a 10 gal. dose at every fill-up as advised by this BMW CCA journalist.

Anyone else use this product? Anyone have issues with pinging/knocking on hills at full-throttle at mid-rpm? Surely this is more common with autos.

[rlomba8204]

Anyone use Redline SI-1 Fuel cleaner on a regular basis? I've been using it for about 2 years as recommended by a BMW CCA journalist.

My car is an automatic, and rarely see's more than 3,000 rpm in normal driving. I have always used premium fuel (93+ oct) - bare in mind the compression is 8.8:1 (near the threshold for requiring premium). When on a hill, between 2,500-3,500 I occasionally hear knocking/pinging. It has been less after using Redline SI-1, but it is still there. (I'm sure if I drove the hell out of it all the time, it would be less). I use a 10 gal. dose at every fill-up as advised by this BMW CCA journalist.

Anyone else use this product? Anyone have issues with pinging/knocking on hills at full-throttle at mid-rpm? Surely this is more common with autos.

First off, it is probably a typo, but you couldn't be using 10 gallon at every fill-up, right? You probably mean the amoun to treat 10 gallons, right?

Second, you do not need to use this stuff every fillup, because it is overkill. Moreover, when you use a fuel system cleaner (I typically use BG 44K), you should only use it shortly before you change your oil. I believe the reason for this, in layman's terms, is that the fuel system cleaner will essentially degrade the oil's ability to lubricate, and discharge contaminants (cleaned from the fuel system) into the engine oil. Using a good fuel system a few times a year should be sufficient to keep your system in good shape. More is just wasted money.

As far as the octane rating goes, the M30B32 engine does not require premium grade fuel. The compression threshold, roughly speaking, for high octane fuel is about 10:1. Your car, at 8.8:1, will run fine on 89, and should be OK on 87.

It is very common for automatic transmission cars not to see sustained high rpm operation, and given that the M30s are already prone to carbon build-up, this only exacerbates the problem. Accordingly, I would suspect that your issue is that you have excessive carbon buildup on the valves. Before wasting any more money on premium fuel or fuel system cleaner, I would take a long road trip and put the car in 3, not D, to get the revs up into the 3,000 - 4,000 rpm period for a sustained period of time. This should help. If you do want to add any more additives to the tank, you might also try a can of Ventil Sauber from Lubro Moly. Same rule thought -- change the oil shortly thereafter. Add the ventil sauber, and drive at sustained high RPM.

If the pinging continues, you should have the car professionally checked because there could be something else going on. I am also assuming, for the purposes of this conversation, that the car is in a sound basic state of tune and is up to date on maintenance.

Good luck, and let us know how you do. And stop wasting money on premium and fuel system additives every tank!

[euro635gas]

I was informed by a factory trained BMW tech that BMW went out of their way to make the early 533 and 633 run very lean at highway speed. He believed this was to increase MPG.
I also struggled with this issue on my 533i and also felt the problem was due to carbon deposits since the car had over 200K.
Fast forward a few years. I had been planning a engine rebuild for some time. I located a used 535 engine and rebuilt it. The 535 has lower compression 8:0:1.
The new engine does not ping ever and I can stomp on the throttle in 4th gear at 2500rpm and all I hear is a smooth acceleration.
On another note I opened up my 533i motor and didn't find and carbon deposits at all.
My humble opinion

Cheers
John Belmore

[jeebus]

stop driving like a pussy?

[skip535i]

stop driving like a pussy?

LMAO!!! 8)

[rlomba8204]

Fwiw, I had an e23 733 (same motor as yours) and it never pinged, ever. That was actually a nicer motor than either of the two B34s -- smoother, more willing to rev, and a nicer idle. I owned that car for a pretty long time, and never heard any folks talking about pinging on the B32s as compared to the B34s. Unless something else is wrong, I would suspect carbon. BMW had several factory campaigns to clean carbon deposits off of the valves of early motronic cars because the FI systems were relatively imprecise by today's standards, and the car's tended to run rich and this produced carbon on the valves if the engines didn't really rev.

[Jimmie G]

When I did a B35 swap into my 533 I pulled the head off the 3.2 and it had carbon build up on the pistons real bad and it was driven very hard but had real bad valve stem seals and the guides were worn as well. So alot of carbon on top of the pistons will raise the CR. Bad flow from carbon on the back side of the intake valves doesnt help matters as well. Sounds like its time for the old ferrari tune up go run the shit out of it with some marvel mystery oil in the fuel! Then change the oil. I have seen a dme swap fix this after all the things were taking care of and the problem was still present.

Jimmie

[skip535i]

Sounds like its time for the old ferrari tune up go run the shit out of it with some marvel mystery oil in the fuel! Then change the oil.

I want more info on this process...sounds like fun no?

[Mike W.]

I had a couple of E23's with 3.3's in them and never heard a ping once, and I never put anything but in anything but regular in the combined 45K I put on them. High miles, though I changed the head on one and the other reportedly had a rebuilt engine, but both were over 280K when I last owned them. I bet one run up to 90 with the pedal to the floor will burn off anything in the combustion chamber/head area if you think carbon is the problem. In my never humble opinion, valve deposits are caused by leaking valve guide seals and oil consumption, not the fuel used, though a good cleaner may help. Injectors do get dirty and leak, I've had terrible problems with them on my 535i, I think I'm on about my 4th set. All used of course. But with no EGR, BMW couldn't have set them up too lean or else they would have never passed smog, a soichmetrically correct mixture and the 3 way cat is the only nox control, on a very high output engine for the day when most cars did have EGR.

Just my .02.

[Jimmie G]

Sorry but I forgot to add at our shop we have had some e320 mercedes and ml320s come in and have had misfire codes and to make a long story short it was from carbon build up on the valves. The problem is the cheap gas that these folks run! This was the deal back in 80s when we were doing the 86 updates that included the carbon blast that was a campaign. The main reason is poor fuel quality buy your gas from one of the big 3.

Jimme

[BRRV]

Second, you do not need to use this stuff every fillup, because it is overkill. Moreover, when you use a fuel system cleaner (I typically use BG 44K), you should only use it shortly before you change your oil. I believe the reason for this, in layman's terms, is that the fuel system cleaner will essentially degrade the oil's ability to lubricate, and discharge contaminants (cleaned from the fuel system) into the engine oil. Using a good fuel system a few times a year should be sufficient to keep your system in good shape. More is just wasted money.

It is NOT overkill or a waste of money. Redline SI-1 is not a solvent based fuel system cleaner, it's a detergent, and Redline actually recommends it with every fill up. While it is true that many FI cleaners can dilute oil (because they are solvent based, as in BG 44K) Redline doesn't. It's written up in their literature. I've used it ever since I put the new injectors in, as a prophylactic, and it seems to work just fine, using the measure on the bottle and adding it as I fill up. I would recommend that you do this in conjunction with a BMW-approved Top Tier gasoline (do a search). I think the Redline regimen is even more important nowadays, as the level of detergent in gasoline has fallen by about half.

As far as carbon build-up, it's a good idea to drive at 4000 rpm for a mile or so and "let the engine breathe" on a regular basis - so says the 535i Owners Manual. I think this was also referred to as an 'italian tune-up'. You could also try some Ventil Sauber, sucked into the intake via the FPR line, allow to soak for an hour or so, and then start the car and let the FPR 'drink' a bit more - this helps clear up carbon deposits in the intake and one the valves. Do a search, I'm sure you'll find a more detailed write-up than what I've provided. I've heard (never tried) that you can do the same thing with Sea Foam.

[CT533i]

Wow guys, thanks for the responses! Thanks to BRRV especially for defending me.

rlomba8204: Yes, when I said 10 gal. dose, I meant I add the amount to treat 10 gal. Mike Miller from Roundel's Tech Talk highly advises doing this every time. He also said 9.0:1 is when you may want to use Premium - so at 8.8:1 and 196K with an auto, you do the math.

I always use Top Tier fuel - typically Shell or Sunoco (sometimes Mobil). And yeah, I once tried 89 with some SI-1 and the car hated it! Never again. Fuel is so crappy nowadays, why chance it more? Yeah I know the manual and sales brochure say 87. But a popular car magazine in 1983, said the 533i required premium.

The car is always up to date on maintenance. You name it,, it's done (new fuel injectors, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, 02 sensor, air and fuel filter.... need I go on?).

Jeebus: Driving the car like a pussy?!? Well, take into account it's an AUTO. Now, it's not as fragile as an EH, but it's still an auto. It has a BMW rebuilt with only 50K on it (fluid/filter changed every year - not taking chances). I don't believe it's advised for us auto owners to beat the crap out of our cars like yall with manuals. Maybe once a week (with A/C off) I'll bring it up to a max. of 5,400-5,800 before it shifts up. A lot of the time traffic doesn't permit where I live. Btw, full-throttle doesn't always get rid of pinging (at least with an auto). Now do you get it?

Not a bad idea about driving it 3 for a mile at 4,000 rpm. I've done it before. I wonder why the 533 manual doesn’t say that BRRV?

As far as diluting oil. I've been told by more than a few, Redline SI-1 will NOT dilute the oil. Now Techron or Lubro Moly Engine flush, well yeah. I've used Lubro Moly Jectron and the Ventil Sauber once, seemed okay. No mention of harming oil.

I think my trips up to Lime Rock this weekend will clear it up. I’ll run the hell out it.

[bryant.cw]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=0

I have used on my car, my wifes 318ti she had a couple years back, and my sh*tty lawnmower that would stall when hot. Worked great on all three. Mower runs much better/less pinging, wifes car had less hesitation, my car had pretty low miles with good maintenance and didn't really notice a difference, but it didn't hurt anything. I'll try it again, I don't think I used enough. I think you want to add about 1/2 a can total, and then right at the end let the engine stall out from drinking too much of it, that way its soaked all over the valves. I let mine run then shut it off manually so I don't think it was enough, but I let it stall out the 318ti. SMOKED LIKE CRAZY for about 5 miles after that running up to redline all over the place. Definately smoothed some of the little rough spots she had.

You need to feed it into a vacuum line on the intake manifold just after the throttle body, I found one under the "box" I'll call it that the runners connect to. Didn't have a ton of suction, maybe I'll try to find another one next time.

Good luck with it. I found some at trak and advance.

[BRRV]

As far as the Ventil Sauber, do a search - there are probably a good half dozen or more pages that discuss this in great detail. I've also seen this referenced with ATF and other chemicals; YMMV. I'd use the Ventil Sauber, and have - this procedure was all the rage years ago on the old Welty BMW Digest.

[rlomba8204]

Second, you do not need to use this stuff every fillup, because it is overkill. Moreover, when you use a fuel system cleaner (I typically use BG 44K), you should only use it shortly before you change your oil. I believe the reason for this, in layman's terms, is that the fuel system cleaner will essentially degrade the oil's ability to lubricate, and discharge contaminants (cleaned from the fuel system) into the engine oil. Using a good fuel system a few times a year should be sufficient to keep your system in good shape. More is just wasted money.

It is NOT overkill or a waste of money. Redline SI-1 is not a solvent based fuel system cleaner, it's a detergent, and Redline actually recommends it with every fill up. While it is true that many FI cleaners can dilute oil (because they are solvent based, as in BG 44K) Redline doesn't. It's written up in their literature. I've used it ever since I put the new injectors in, as a prophylactic, and it seems to work just fine, using the measure on the bottle and adding it as I fill up. I would recommend that you do this in conjunction with a BMW-approved Top Tier gasoline (do a search). I think the Redline regimen is even more important nowadays, as the level of detergent in gasoline has fallen by about half.

Rick:
I respect your views, but I am not with you on this one, although I will take your word for it on the Redline. Where we disagree is the necessity of using any additive with every fill up. First off, of course Redline recommends it every fill up. But bear in mind that BMW does not call for the continuous use of a fuel system additive because it's just not necessary. Use a good fuel system cleaner a couple of times a year, and you will be good to go. Your good experience with your injectors results from more of your overall excellent maintenance habits than from Redline. I don't doubt Redline is a good product, but I've never met one BMW master tech, and I've known a more than a few, who recommend constant use of fuel additives. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but I am just trying to save folks some money.

CT533i:
I am pretty sure if you email Miller, he will tell you 10.0:1 is the line for high octane. The M30B35, with compression in the high 8 range, (I know because I used to have an e34 535), called for 89. The M60B40 in my e32, with 9.6:1 compression, also says 89 is acceptable, and it never ever has pinged on 89. The M30B32 in your car should be just fine on 89, trust me on this one. The fact that it is still pinging, even on high octane, is a sign that something's up not related to octane. M30s were not designed to need racing octanes not to ping. And, fwiw, I have not run into the need to run higher octane in older BMWs as you often would with domestic v-8 cars. That's just my experience, but I think it is largely consistent with folks' experience here.

MikeW:
You make an interesting point about the carbon buildup resulting from things other than fuel, but bear in mind that when these cars were new, BMW had a campaign, using crushed walnut shells, to blast carbon off the valves. Given the fact that the motors were relatively new at that time, my thinking is that a good amount of the build-up on the valves had to do with fuel, or more precisely, too much of it. My experience with the B34 motors is that the injectors are messy, and like to leak, and I think they have been prone to this since the cars were relatively new. Not saying other things don't contribute at this age, but when the cars were new the valve guides and seals should have been relatively sound.

Interesting post. Lots of useful information here.

[BRRV]

I use it because it's a DETERGENT, not a solvent based gunk remover, like BG, which I also use, at my winter and again at my summer oil change. Redline convinced me, based on their very detailed monograph, that it was a product that was useful in maintaining the injector tolerances with continuous use, and in eliminating rust in the system due to water vapor. Plus, the fact that BMW and other manufacturers are recognizing that detergent gasoline additives have been reduced markedly of late, and are recommending only TopTier (their term) gasolines that have an agreed upon detergent level. FWIW, my research has led me to believe that, even at those prescibed levels, the detergent in most gasolines isn't enough to keep a fuel injection system clean. Since the Redline SI-1 is about 8 bucks a bottle, and I get 6 or more tankfuls out of a bottle, I consider that to be prudent and economical. BTW, I have a copy of that tech paper if you'd like, but the last time I looked it was still available on their website.

[a]

I have used Seafoam as a hot soak. The directions are on the can called Carbon Cleaner. It makes beaucoup smoke, I expected to see fire engines

[rlomba8204]

I use it because it's a DETERGENT, not a solvent based gunk remover, like BG, which I also use, at my winter and again at my summer oil change. Redline convinced me, based on their very detailed monograph, that it was a product that was useful in maintaining the injector tolerances with continuous use, and in eliminating rust in the system due to water vapor. Plus, the fact that BMW and other manufacturers are recognizing that detergent gasoline additives have been reduced markedly of late, and are recommending only TopTier (their term) gasolines that have an agreed upon detergent level. FWIW, my research has led me to believe that, even at those prescibed levels, the detergent in most gasolines isn't enough to keep a fuel injection system clean. Since the Redline SI-1 is about 8 bucks a bottle, and I get 6 or more tankfuls out of a bottle, I consider that to be prudent and economical. BTW, I have a copy of that tech paper if you'd like, but the last time I looked it was still available on their website.

On your advice, I will look up this tech article, since I consider you one of the tech gurus here. But old practices die hard, and I just don't like throwing stuff in every tank . . . . But we all live and learn right?

As far as the original poster goes, I still hope his takeaway here is not that he needs higher octane fuel, because he doesn't. He has something else going on.

[BRRV]

As far as the original poster goes, I still hope his takeaway here is not that he needs higher octane fuel, because he doesn't. He has something else going on.

On this I agree with you - and I suspect it has to do with his driving habits and the fact that it's an automatic. He needs to be seeing 4,000 rpm regularly!

[Steve Haygood]

Had a 533 years ago.To keep the pinging down, we had to run premuim, Exhaust was replaced front to back with a euro 535 system ,after that 89 octane was sufficient, Years later I pulled the head and replaced the valve guide seals, decarboned the piston tops and the backs of the valves and from then on, 87 was fine, just my experience

[CT533i]

Yeah I guess a high-revving 533 and an auto aren't the best combo. for carbon.

Well I ran the hell out of it at Lime Rock (coulda run harder if those darn newer Bimmers didn't keep getting in my way). I also did what BRRV suggested. On the drive up I locked the tranny into 2, and ran it between 3,500-4,000 for a mile. I hope it helped. How often should I do this? Will it do any harm to the tranny. (It's a BMW rebuilt with only 50K - change the fluid and filter every 15K or every year).

Steve: you bring up a good point. I STILL have the orig. Cat. and Fuel Pump at 196K. Would this have any effect on performance, pinging and carbon. Hmm, wonder if the stalling on large bumps could be from this orig. pump. (someone with a 733i said his orig. fuel pump was the culprit for stalling).

[BRRV]

At your mileage, unfortunately, everything and anything could be suspect. You may want to run some fuel pressure tests, by the book. I believe I was having problems with my fuel pressure system for quite a while, and this took a while for me to sort out. It's just diagnostic testing. I don't think that running an M30 with an automatic in the way you describe could be harmful. Others who have more experience with an automatic may disagree, but after all this is a BMW, and the high RPM procedure is discussed at length in the owners manual. I do think you should try the valve cleaning technique (the 'hot soak') that everyone mentioned, as it's a common maintenance technique (even BavAuto and BMP discussed it in their catalogs). I think that it would be the most beneficial for you at this point.

You didn't mention that it stalls on large bumps, which to me would immediately suspect a loose connection in the ignition/FI/or other electrical system. You may want to take a real close look at all of the connectors on the car - sometimes they can back out and make an intermittent contact and/or become corroded.

Steve might have a different take, as he's a pro, but I can't see any direct effect of an old cat, unless its coming apart (unlikely for a factory original cat, IMO, unless it's been damaged). A worn fuel pump will commonly show up as a loss of power, hard starting, so yes, it would have an effect on performance, but not to my mind on carbon build up or pinging.

By the way - does it still ping after all of your exercises?

[CT533i]

By the way - does it still ping after all of your exercises?

Seems okay for now.