Anyone compared drive and feel of E28's vs. E34's M's?
Having trouble deciding on which one to get....I like the older models....I'm so confused....the more I read the more confused I get.[/i][/u][/b]
ADVICE SOUGHT E28 M5 VS E34 M5
In a nutshell, the E28 M5 is a more exclusive, completely hand built M5 that's less refined and also more of a raw driving experience.
The E34 M5 is a more refined, more modern approach to the same idea. Smoother, better riding and some might say a more 'civilized' daily driver/commuter.
Saying this, the E34 M5 is quite a bit heavier and lacks some of that old school X-factor that is prevalent in the Original. The E28 M5 is also an older car, so if you're craving something remotely modern, the E34 might be a more sensible choice.
You'll want to keep a closer eye on corrosion with the E28, for obvious reasons.
The E34 M5 is a more refined, more modern approach to the same idea. Smoother, better riding and some might say a more 'civilized' daily driver/commuter.
Saying this, the E34 M5 is quite a bit heavier and lacks some of that old school X-factor that is prevalent in the Original. The E28 M5 is also an older car, so if you're craving something remotely modern, the E34 might be a more sensible choice.
You'll want to keep a closer eye on corrosion with the E28, for obvious reasons.
Having owned two e28 M5s (one US spec and one Euro) and currently own a 1993 US spec M5, I can tell you that they are two entirely different cars (well three if that counts).
As said earlier, the e34 M5 is a more refined car and IMO lacks the character of the e28. There aren't any handling comprimises, but the e34 is more of a Starbucks to go kind of car. You can hear yourself talk and the car just cruises down the highway, where the e28 is more of a raw driver's car, where you can hear the 24v twin cam motor singing!
If you do decide to get an e34, make sure you get either a euro model 1994 or 1995, or a US spec 1993. These are the best of the best when it comes down to driveability and features.
As said earlier, the e34 M5 is a more refined car and IMO lacks the character of the e28. There aren't any handling comprimises, but the e34 is more of a Starbucks to go kind of car. You can hear yourself talk and the car just cruises down the highway, where the e28 is more of a raw driver's car, where you can hear the 24v twin cam motor singing!
If you do decide to get an e34, make sure you get either a euro model 1994 or 1995, or a US spec 1993. These are the best of the best when it comes down to driveability and features.
That's up for debate, the 3.8s are the most obvious choice for driveablility and the obvious extra tq. But, this topic is always a hot one on M5Board, with the general concensus being that the 3.6 is a little more lively and slightly more 'raw'. The 3.8, obviously, has several improvements though, as Ron states.RonP wrote: If you do decide to get an e34, make sure you get either a euro model 1994 or 1995. These are the best of the best when it comes down to driveability and features.
Re: M5
You're mostly correct.LA wrote:I had read that the E34 M5 was the last of the handbuilt M5 cars. Is this not correct?
From what I gather, the E28 M5s were pretty much completely handbuilt, including interiors, etc, etc.
Where as the E34s were mostly hand built, with the E39s ending this pattern.
Over the years I've heard people say the E28 M5's were hand built but I think their view of what it means for a car to be hand built must differ from mine. I may be wrong here but I see the BMW E28 M5 as a mass produced car. Mass produced in a more limited production run no doubt, but mass produced just the same.
Whether or not the E28 M5 was hand built is more about marketing than quality. Hand building is an expensive means of production and doesn't (to me) suggest better quality. Because the demand for the four valve E28 was small, it didn't justify the tooling to gear up for large scale production. That doesn't mean the E28 M5 was better quality than the E28 535i because in my experience the quality of the two cars is about the same.
Whether or not the E28 M5 was hand built is more about marketing than quality. Hand building is an expensive means of production and doesn't (to me) suggest better quality. Because the demand for the four valve E28 was small, it didn't justify the tooling to gear up for large scale production. That doesn't mean the E28 M5 was better quality than the E28 535i because in my experience the quality of the two cars is about the same.
"Hand built" clearly means "hand assembled." It's not like two guys in lederhosen machined the thing on a lathe.
Like with Ferrari (among others), the engines are assembled by people, not robots, and then everything is put together by people, not robots. The E28 M5s weren't "mass produced" in the normal sense - no assembly line, and the numbers don't indicate "mass" by any stretch. E24 M6/M635 were.
As to what difference it makes - I'd agree, not much. "Hand built" doesn't seem to produce a level of quality visible to the naked eye.
But the sound cool factor is something. There is no doubt in my mind that an E39 M5, mass produced, will run performance rings around my E28 M5. I still think mine has the uber-cool factor.
Like with Ferrari (among others), the engines are assembled by people, not robots, and then everything is put together by people, not robots. The E28 M5s weren't "mass produced" in the normal sense - no assembly line, and the numbers don't indicate "mass" by any stretch. E24 M6/M635 were.
As to what difference it makes - I'd agree, not much. "Hand built" doesn't seem to produce a level of quality visible to the naked eye.
But the sound cool factor is something. There is no doubt in my mind that an E39 M5, mass produced, will run performance rings around my E28 M5. I still think mine has the uber-cool factor.
I don't agree "Hand built" is the same as "hand assembled" but leaving that issue alone, my question is what was it on the E28 M5 that was hand assembled that wasn't hand assembled on the E28 535i?JayM wrote:"Hand built" clearly means "hand assembled." It's not like two guys in lederhosen machined the thing on a lathe.
And therein is the motive for saying the E28 M5 was "Hand built" - to cast a similar light to the E28 M5 that cars which truly are (or were) "Hand built" enjoy. Assuming for a moment the E28 M5 was "Hand built", that is not an advantage, that is simply a reflection of what the market was for an E28 with a four valve engine - very limited. I would much rather rely on a robot at 8:05 on a Monday morning than I would rely on a human at that hour.JayM wrote:Like with Ferrari (among others), the engines are assembled by people, not robots, and then everything is put together by people, not robots.
I think reasonable people can disagree here but to me, anything built in the tens of thousands (E28's) is clearly mass produced. The way I see it the E28 was a mass produced car and putting a four valve engine in a car by hand doesn't qualify that car as being "Hand built" but I accept that other people of can view it that way.JayM wrote:The E28 M5s weren't "mass produced" in the normal sense - no assembly line, and the numbers don't indicate "mass" by any stretch. E24 M6/M635 were.
No, but using robotics to assemble products quite often does...JayM wrote:As to what difference it makes - I'd agree, not much. "Hand built" doesn't seem to produce a level of quality visible to the naked eye.
OK but it sounds silly to me. People say the E28 M5 was "Hand built" but the E24 M635CSi, which I see as a better product, wasn't. Make no mistake, I like the E28 M5 enough to own one, I just don’t consider it a “Hand built” car.JayM wrote:But the sound cool factor is something. There is no doubt in my mind that an E39 M5, mass produced, will run performance rings around my E28 M5. I still think mine has the uber-cool factor.
It's not often I agree with M635, and I won't phrase things the same way, but I agree.
It's hard to really quantify, but on an E24 I used to have, even though it wasn't "hand built" it was, kind of. Comparing it to it's E12 brother (it was an early one) things just didn't fit the same, they didn't work the same, I at least saw an inconsistancy that wasn't good. It's been so long now I can't even remember the details, but it was something of a minor revelation. I mean I'd heard about different Benz' that were hand built, 300SE 4.5 and all that, which were protrayed in a good light, but my take was that it wasn't really a good thing.
Not that more is better, GM can punch out 4 million widgets a year and still have poor quality control, but building more than 3 a day does help quality.
It's hard to really quantify, but on an E24 I used to have, even though it wasn't "hand built" it was, kind of. Comparing it to it's E12 brother (it was an early one) things just didn't fit the same, they didn't work the same, I at least saw an inconsistancy that wasn't good. It's been so long now I can't even remember the details, but it was something of a minor revelation. I mean I'd heard about different Benz' that were hand built, 300SE 4.5 and all that, which were protrayed in a good light, but my take was that it wasn't really a good thing.
Not that more is better, GM can punch out 4 million widgets a year and still have poor quality control, but building more than 3 a day does help quality.
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rlomba8204
- Posts: 4869
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006
- Location: Washington, DC
My sense of it is that the attaction to things "hand built" stems from romantic thoughts of the old world craftsman and things of that ilk, but to add my .02 from the peanut gallery, things built by machines are more precise, it's that simple. For example, once all manufacturers started using robots and greater automation for body assembly, things like shims and adjustment plates quickly became irrelevant -- there was no need for adjustment because lasers and robots are so precise. With hand built coach work, adjustments are necessary because the craftsman can only be so precise. Motors are of course different, but the difference in tolerances in new motors can be felt on a cold morning, for example, when less precisely built motor will have more corseness, for lack of a better word, until it warms up for a few moments, while a motor with tighter tolerances will run pretty much the way it always runs.
My point with all this is that romantic notions of yester-year aside, the quality problems that have often been discussed here, that afflict certain newer BMWs such as the e39 M5, have nothing to do with the fact that they are no longer hand built. The issues result from BMW's inability to manage the modern automobile production process as efficiently as Honda and Toyota, the companies that are, by all accounts, the leaders in producing defect-free automobiles.
The only area, in my opinion, where hand building has any relevance is in terms of future collectibility / resale: since there are probably less hand built cars, because it is obviously slower and less efficient to hand build, it is more likely that there will be less of them, and thus their resale value / collector value will likely be greater.
My point with all this is that romantic notions of yester-year aside, the quality problems that have often been discussed here, that afflict certain newer BMWs such as the e39 M5, have nothing to do with the fact that they are no longer hand built. The issues result from BMW's inability to manage the modern automobile production process as efficiently as Honda and Toyota, the companies that are, by all accounts, the leaders in producing defect-free automobiles.
The only area, in my opinion, where hand building has any relevance is in terms of future collectibility / resale: since there are probably less hand built cars, because it is obviously slower and less efficient to hand build, it is more likely that there will be less of them, and thus their resale value / collector value will likely be greater.
Perhaps we should try to answer Andy's question and then deal with the finer points of handmade vs. machine assisted and all that stuff. I have owned two E28 M5's (a US version when it was new, and a Euro version) and two E34 M5's (a 91 which I didn't keep very long as I was transfered offshore, and a 93). Ron's 93 was previously mine and my 85 Euro was previously his. The E34 is a longer car and drives like it. The E28 is more tossable and to me has a handling advantage. They both benefit from aftermarket suspensions. Both engines tend to be leakers (in my experience) but are stout and will run for many miles with the proper maintenance. I frankly think the build quality is high in both. The E34 for my money is a bit more of a cruiser and feels more modern in design. The comments on the 3.6 vs. the 3.8 are to me as follows. My 93 felt much more evolved than the 91. The clutch feel was better and the engine certainly felt stronger and better managed. The 93 was a better car. Andy, you should take some time and drive both the E34 and the E28. I prefer the E28, but there are arguments to be made for both cars. Just one comment on the handmade vs automated process thing. Automation has improved dramatically since the late 80's/early 90's (like all technology). The way vitrually all things are manufactured today is very different than it was 20 yrs. ago. That needs to be part of any substantive discussion on the subject.
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andyalbany
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Mar 19, 2007
Thanks B9 for getting back on point nd answering question...
I was getting a kick out of the whole production vs. handmade discussion. Might as well add my POV. A rug or a painting, I would want handmade. A car, nahhh.
Handmade means exclusive and was probably part "marketing" folklore or at least a claim to make the M's just a wee bit more exclusive.
Back to the Question which was a E34 M vs a E28 M....which one? I think I have come to a conclusion. First, it is kind of interesting that very few if anyone, will come right out and say the E28 or E34. Rather, they give strong points in support of each. My feeling is that the E28 is a better overall harmonized machine, from looks, to engine, to handling, to balance; and the E28 best meets the BMW mantra of the ultimate driving machine. The late 1980's was also a time when no one was able to challenge BMW's claim as the "Ultimate Driving Machine". It wasn't until the mid 1990's that the Asian companies started to come out with equally impressive stats for their sporty cars. The E28 M5 was also a very natural extension of the superb E30 M3: in it own unique, and beautifully understated German design for a 4 door sedan. Don't get me wrong, the E34 M is a nice car, but lacks the sense of "pure driving passion" that put BMW on the map. Perhaps it was because the advancement in assembly line production and its requirements was paramount to the absolute obsession of developing the best drivable car for the BMW enthusiast. I also want a car to speak to me when I hit the gas, the newer BMW's just don't make you feel special anymore in my humble opinion. Can someone just find me a very well taken care of E28 M5 that I can drive and have some fun with. Thanks
Handmade means exclusive and was probably part "marketing" folklore or at least a claim to make the M's just a wee bit more exclusive.
Back to the Question which was a E34 M vs a E28 M....which one? I think I have come to a conclusion. First, it is kind of interesting that very few if anyone, will come right out and say the E28 or E34. Rather, they give strong points in support of each. My feeling is that the E28 is a better overall harmonized machine, from looks, to engine, to handling, to balance; and the E28 best meets the BMW mantra of the ultimate driving machine. The late 1980's was also a time when no one was able to challenge BMW's claim as the "Ultimate Driving Machine". It wasn't until the mid 1990's that the Asian companies started to come out with equally impressive stats for their sporty cars. The E28 M5 was also a very natural extension of the superb E30 M3: in it own unique, and beautifully understated German design for a 4 door sedan. Don't get me wrong, the E34 M is a nice car, but lacks the sense of "pure driving passion" that put BMW on the map. Perhaps it was because the advancement in assembly line production and its requirements was paramount to the absolute obsession of developing the best drivable car for the BMW enthusiast. I also want a car to speak to me when I hit the gas, the newer BMW's just don't make you feel special anymore in my humble opinion. Can someone just find me a very well taken care of E28 M5 that I can drive and have some fun with. Thanks
I have both, but the E28 hasn't been driven much in
the past ~5 years and is probably going to be parted
out at some point. the E34 I've had for 2+ years as
a daily driver and it's orders of magnitude more
refined but less fun in a lot of ways.
agree that the E34 is a more "modern" car. it's heavier,
less raw, more comfortable, more suited to cruising, but
an E28 isn't IMHO a "tossable" car anyway, at least not
as compared to something like an E30 which is
infinitely more well suited to track or auto-x work.
hand built vs hand crafted vs robot assembled vs
whatever is pretty meaningless other than it sounds
neat to talk about. IIRC the E28 bodyshells were
built on the same line as the normal cars, but assembly
of all the other components was done by teams at
Garching (sp?) rather than the regular line. don't
think that its necessarily any better or worse, just
different. the E34s and all E30 M3s and everything
else ///M (except engines, which for at least recent
ones are built at a separate assembly facility from
the rest of the engines) are normal cars built on the line.
exceptions to this would be cars built (or finished more
correctly I'd say) by BMW Individual, but that's probably
mostly a function of unique colors & interiors rather than
oily bits.
E28 M5s were built before the E30 M3, so they're not a
natural extension of them, rather the M3 is born from
the M5s engine and thru the need to homologate for
racing.
relative to which E34s are best, I'd agree to some
extent that the later cars are "better" but only in that
you'll get stuff like wood enlays, different steering
wheel, tilt steering, Motorsport door handles, more
complicated HVAC system (with more parts to break),
aero mirrors & perhaps the additional cachet (if that's
important to you) of even smaller production numbers.
the difference in the clutch feel on the later cars can
be achieved with the later clutch parts & makes the car
much easier to daily drive as compared to the E28 or
early E34 cars.
euro 3.8l cars have more power, cooler interiors
available (alcantara/cloth in two different colors),
adjustable EDC dampers and staggered wheels.
however, the 3.8l engine is judged to be closer to
the edge in terms of the capability of the base M30
design and there are a lot of cars which had engines
replaced due to bearing or other failures in Germany.
if one were to buy a euro car, the first thing to do
would be to check & replace the crank bearings.
any but the most lovingly cared for cars are going
to be quite old at this point and may need full once-overs
to get them up to snuff for some people's taste.
the EDC system is very nice when it's working, but it's
on the order of $600/corner to replace if the parts fail.
the stock SLS on the US cars works well and for street
use is probably more than capable enough, but some
people feel the need to tinker.
there's no reason to import a euro car now, as there
are enough of them here to find a good one and
they're not much more expensive than what some
people get for low mileage US cars. if you budget
$25k for a nice E34 you'd be able to either buy well
at $15k and have plenty set aside for future work/repairs
or get a very nice car which shouldn't need anything to
be reliable for a long time. I don't believe that sub 75k
US market cars are worth $25k when you can get
legal euro cars which are better in every functional
way for the same money with a few more miles on them.
my car has 215k on it and other than some oil leaks is
running fine. I need to do the timing chain components
over the summer as a preventative measure, but it otherwise
pulls right along.
Ben
the past ~5 years and is probably going to be parted
out at some point. the E34 I've had for 2+ years as
a daily driver and it's orders of magnitude more
refined but less fun in a lot of ways.
agree that the E34 is a more "modern" car. it's heavier,
less raw, more comfortable, more suited to cruising, but
an E28 isn't IMHO a "tossable" car anyway, at least not
as compared to something like an E30 which is
infinitely more well suited to track or auto-x work.
hand built vs hand crafted vs robot assembled vs
whatever is pretty meaningless other than it sounds
neat to talk about. IIRC the E28 bodyshells were
built on the same line as the normal cars, but assembly
of all the other components was done by teams at
Garching (sp?) rather than the regular line. don't
think that its necessarily any better or worse, just
different. the E34s and all E30 M3s and everything
else ///M (except engines, which for at least recent
ones are built at a separate assembly facility from
the rest of the engines) are normal cars built on the line.
exceptions to this would be cars built (or finished more
correctly I'd say) by BMW Individual, but that's probably
mostly a function of unique colors & interiors rather than
oily bits.
E28 M5s were built before the E30 M3, so they're not a
natural extension of them, rather the M3 is born from
the M5s engine and thru the need to homologate for
racing.
relative to which E34s are best, I'd agree to some
extent that the later cars are "better" but only in that
you'll get stuff like wood enlays, different steering
wheel, tilt steering, Motorsport door handles, more
complicated HVAC system (with more parts to break),
aero mirrors & perhaps the additional cachet (if that's
important to you) of even smaller production numbers.
the difference in the clutch feel on the later cars can
be achieved with the later clutch parts & makes the car
much easier to daily drive as compared to the E28 or
early E34 cars.
euro 3.8l cars have more power, cooler interiors
available (alcantara/cloth in two different colors),
adjustable EDC dampers and staggered wheels.
however, the 3.8l engine is judged to be closer to
the edge in terms of the capability of the base M30
design and there are a lot of cars which had engines
replaced due to bearing or other failures in Germany.
if one were to buy a euro car, the first thing to do
would be to check & replace the crank bearings.
any but the most lovingly cared for cars are going
to be quite old at this point and may need full once-overs
to get them up to snuff for some people's taste.
the EDC system is very nice when it's working, but it's
on the order of $600/corner to replace if the parts fail.
the stock SLS on the US cars works well and for street
use is probably more than capable enough, but some
people feel the need to tinker.
there's no reason to import a euro car now, as there
are enough of them here to find a good one and
they're not much more expensive than what some
people get for low mileage US cars. if you budget
$25k for a nice E34 you'd be able to either buy well
at $15k and have plenty set aside for future work/repairs
or get a very nice car which shouldn't need anything to
be reliable for a long time. I don't believe that sub 75k
US market cars are worth $25k when you can get
legal euro cars which are better in every functional
way for the same money with a few more miles on them.
my car has 215k on it and other than some oil leaks is
running fine. I need to do the timing chain components
over the summer as a preventative measure, but it otherwise
pulls right along.
Ben
E28
Thanks for getting back on topic -- I'm sorry I asked the question that started the digression.
I have tried to convince myself to buy an E34 the last TWO times I bought an E28. I love them and would get one if I needed a second car. The E28 is just more fun! I think the comparisons are the same if we talk about M or non M cars.
I have tried to convince myself to buy an E34 the last TWO times I bought an E28. I love them and would get one if I needed a second car. The E28 is just more fun! I think the comparisons are the same if we talk about M or non M cars.
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Adam W in MN
- Posts: 5055
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006
- Location: Don't waste my motherf***in' time!
- Contact:
I think you mean rod bearings. The mains should be fine, the weak point on 3.8's is the thinner rod bearings than the 3.6 liter motors.m ben wrote:if one were to buy a euro car, the first thing to do would be to check & replace the crank bearings.
As a (very recently former) owner of an E34 M5 3.8 (I did the rod bearings as soon as I got the car, and it was a good thing I did), I agree with all of Ben's statements and most of what has been said in this thread. The E28 M5 came before the E30 M3, the E12 M535i I own came before the E28 M5, it's fun to talk about handbuilt and I say it a lot as well, but in the end it doesn't mean much, and the E34 is more refined than an E28 M5 for obvious reasons.
If I lived in a climate more suited to driving an older car in the winter, I'd drive an E28. The E34 is better in 75% of the US for year-round daily driver duties. Either way, it's an M5 meaning it's fast, practical, and exclusive. You can't go wrong with either car really.
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Bryan in SB
- Posts: 2002
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006
Also take into account where you're asking this question.
This board is primarily made up of E28 only folks. Therefore, I think you'll find 'the heart' of most of the members here is in favor of the E28.
Ask this same question in an E34 forum(possibly done already?) and you may get an entirely different slant.
Either way, figure out what you're truly after. An older, lighter feeling, smaller car, or a newer, tighter feeling, heavier, more comfortable car.
I too am starting to think about an E34 M5, as I'd like to upgrade my DD. An E34 will offer my growing family a bit more room, and will hopefully have about 100k less miles on it!!!!
This board is primarily made up of E28 only folks. Therefore, I think you'll find 'the heart' of most of the members here is in favor of the E28.
Ask this same question in an E34 forum(possibly done already?) and you may get an entirely different slant.
Either way, figure out what you're truly after. An older, lighter feeling, smaller car, or a newer, tighter feeling, heavier, more comfortable car.
I too am starting to think about an E34 M5, as I'd like to upgrade my DD. An E34 will offer my growing family a bit more room, and will hopefully have about 100k less miles on it!!!!
I think you're actually looking at closer to $1k/corner nowadays.m ben wrote: the EDC system is very nice when it's working, but it's
on the order of $600/corner to replace if the parts fail.
the stock SLS on the US cars works well and for street
use is probably more than capable enough, but some
people feel the need to tinker.
Ben
Getting ready to replace these on the 540i M-Sport.
