Hartge dyno results, done a dyno test today on the e34 535i

[Brent in NZ Hartge 535i]

did a dyno run on my 1990 535i , that i have recently fitted a semi rebuilt hartge engine in .

i built this engine up with a hartge tunned head ( bigger valves and porting) head is dated back to 1984 came from a 87/88 635i from japan .

i used block from a approx 89 535i or 735i , fitted 10:1 cr pistons from e23 86 735i , had new riings and bearings fitted , valave grind , both head head and block where skimmed .new chains and sprockets etc .
fitted it along with a 5 speed manual box into this 90 535ia 3.45 diff.

was a bit disapointed with the proformance when i got it all going , found a bit more power after changing fuel filter and also swapping ecu from a motronic 1.3(original one in car) for a modified 1.1 from a 87 735 e32, seamed a little better , still enquiring with enginer and parts people why is seams ro be down on power , decided to reset tappets a little loser after doing compression test and only coming up to 150psi ( should be 180+) .also rechecking cam timming noticed it looked at by one tooth , reset to true .
and all seams to be good now .
dyno results show 4 different ecu's we tried , first run was the lowest with the modified unit from a e32 735i about 126kw at the wheels ,
then nest run with the original ecu that came with hartge engine came up to 132.9kw then 2 more goes with std 1.3 motronic ecu and 1.1 motronic ecu both better than the 735i one but not as high as the orginal one .
a friend of mine had his 86 M535i 5psd 3.07diff ,there on friday came up as 123kw (shrick cam and e34 head ) and another guy there witha 90 535is had 112kw (map sensor afm fited).
gavin who owns the place use to have a alpina B10 e34 that did 141kw , and also has a e30 335ia with fully worked engine with auto and 4.11 diff doing 158kw .

he said we could tune the ecu a little more to get the power to carry on and maybe even up a little .
still have std exhaust and intake system ,

first pic is a few of the runs with different ecu's
second pic is the power and the torque
third pic is the fuel and power curves

132.9kw equals about 181hp at the wheels , add about 25% for flywheel rating 226hp .
std e34 is 211hp 305Nm std e28 is 218hp 310Nm .
mine was about 325Nm pretty flat
full hartge spec engine about 250Hp and alpina about 260hp ....

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[Duke]

There is defiantly something wrong with your set up.

Here is what I got with my NA engine -


This is with a Hartge H6s head, headers and a MAF meter. 219 HP and 229 Torque are rear wheel readings. Check my web page for much more detail.

Is your car an automatic? If not, you add 15% for drive line loss to get engine HP. 25% is normally for slush box cars.

[Brent in NZ Hartge 535i]

There is defiantly something wrong with your set up.

Here is what I got with my NA engine -


This is with a Hartge H6s head, headers and a MAF meter. 219 HP and 229 Torque are rear wheel readings. Check my web page for much more detail.

Is your car an automatic? If not, you add 15% for drive line loss to get engine HP. 25% is normally for slush box cars.

hi , yes this is a H5S head 1984 , fitted on top of std e28 hc pistons . only has std e28 cam from m535i . and ecu that came with hartge engine from a jap 87 635csi .
i dont have the hartge extractors ( had to sell only good for lhd car ). still have std afm , air filter , and exhaust .....

car is a 5spd manual . fitted with 3.45 diff .new clutch etc .
the guy at the dyno shop said add about 25% for driveline loss .

what compression reading did you get with that hartge engine when it was still NA .....?????

just added photo's hope you can see them this time ,
hope to be able to tune the ecu a bit more to carry on the power curve on and up a little bit more and maybe raise rev limit to about 6400rpm....
any other sugestions ..
you can see the test with 4 lines using different ecu units .

[Jeremy]

The stock cam plus stock exhaust is killing the power potential of that lovely motor . . .

Jeremy

[Duke]

I agree with Jeremy -

here are your issues:

Stock CAM (I had a 284)
Stock exhaust (I had Hartge headers into duel 2" pipe to a M535i muffler, no resonator)
AFM (I had a MAF installed)
Stock Throttle Body (mine is bored out by 3.25 mm)
Stock injectors (I had 24 lb injectors)
ECU (I had a 061 with a performance chip installed)

I got 220 RWHP, you currently have 180.

I have my compression numbers written down somewhere. Have not been able to find them yet.

I would replace the cam first with a schrick 284 and see where you stand then.

Or just say fuck-it and order a TCD turbo charging kit. I made 298 RWHP at a measly 7.5 psi of boost. That H5s head you have will make a excellent turbo head.

[Brent in NZ Hartge 535i]

I agree with Jeremy -

here are your issues:

Stock CAM (I had a 284)
Stock exhaust (I had Hartge headers into duel 2" pipe to a M535i muffler, no resonator)
AFM (I had a MAF installed)
Stock Throttle Body (mine is bored out by 3.25 mm)
Stock injectors (I had 24 lb injectors)
ECU (I had a 061 with a performance chip installed)

I got 220 RWHP, you currently have 180.

I have my compression numbers written down somewhere. Have not been able to find them yet.

I would replace the cam first with a schrick 284 and see where you stand then.

Or just say fuck-it and order a TCD turbo charging kit. I made 298 RWHP at a measly 7.5 psi of boost. That H5s head you have will make a excellent turbo head.

i have some M60 V8 injectors sitting there , do you think that would help any.

also notice that the e34 525i m20 and M50 only run 2 mufflers .
should i just remove the small front one in my e34 ,, any one done this???

pricing up cams now . what sort should i get .

[Jeremy]

pricing up cams now . what sort should i get .

The bigger the better for top end power. 8)

A 284/280 intake/exhaust should work nicely for a street driven car. I believe that's the cam that Duke used.

If you can't get headers that fit a RHD e34 (I would think that someone must make them, but perhaps not), you could look into getting the exhaust manifolds ported. This is will help flow, but not quite as much as equal length tuned headers would.

The muffler issue is up to you. Removing one of the mufflers will help some, but it will get a little louder. Do you want to keep it quiet or no?

Jeremy

[cgraff]

I agree with Jeremy -

here are your issues:

Stock CAM (I had a 284)
Stock exhaust (I had Hartge headers into duel 2" pipe to a M535i muffler, no resonator)
AFM (I had a MAF installed)
Stock Throttle Body (mine is bored out by 3.25 mm)
Stock injectors (I had 24 lb injectors)
ECU (I had a 061 with a performance chip installed)

I got 220 RWHP, you currently have 180.

I have my compression numbers written down somewhere. Have not been able to find them yet.

I would replace the cam first with a schrick 284 and see where you stand then.

Or just say fuck-it and order a TCD turbo charging kit. I made 298 RWHP at a measly 7.5 psi of boost. That H5s head you have will make a excellent turbo head.

1. Cam: Shrick cam is a great option. A 284 cam is ideal for a 250-260 bhp motor. Top End Performance can do a custom billet grind for ya for $400. (www.racetep.com, talk to Steve Nelson).

2. Exhaust. Stock exhaust on E28s is pretty restrictive. Ideally you'll use a similar system to the M5 with 2" OD pipe (e.g. 50mm). As for headers, you'll run into that problem with RHD. A decent option is the ported exhaust manifolds. For E34 systems, I don't know off hand what options you have downstream, but you can check on the ETK what it came stock with.

3. You can run an AFM for now. MAFs are a better option, but remember that Hartge and Alpina got 250+ bhp using AFMs just fine. Keep it on the back-burner.

4. Same with throttle bodies....keep the enlarged one on the back burner.

5. If you're running over 240 bhp, I'd recommend going to 24 lb-hr injectors. Five-o Motorsports can help you out there. Direct plug-in.

6. As for ECU, a custom chip will do you well, but running the Hartge one it came with ought to be best.

So in conclusion:
Fix your breathing....head breathing that is. The torque is nice and flat up to 5k RPM, but then falls precipitously off the cliff. The A/F ratios arent' significantly off. So that leads me to believe that you ought to get the cam to work with the Hartge head first. Then work upstream and downstream. I am assuming you have the B35 intake manifold, so there ought not to be issues there. Then move onto exhaust and resolve that issue. Once you do that, you can then retest, and figure out the next steps (which might be ECU, TB, AFM-MAF conversion, but not necessarily in that order).

-Chris

[Brent in NZ Hartge 535i]

thanks guys for all the info , will keep you posted .
looking forward to the e28 M535i repower with M88 m5 engine .
should be soon .

[gaijin]

Extractors are a bit of a hassle for RHD cars, you might want to consider these guys, or trying to simulate the technique locally.
http://www.gethoned.com/process.html.
For cams, Dbilas seem to be popular in Germany, although virtually unheard of in the English speaking world. They are advertised on Ebay, but don't let that put you off.

[russc]

Dont take the Hartge spec of 240 and 260hp as gosspel. These #s have never been verified on an original Hartge car. The only #s that every came close are Dukes with a MAF. Never trust a tuners #s, especially w/o dyno confirmation.

RussC

[Brent in NZ Hartge 535i]

Dont take the Hartge spec of 240 and 260hp as gosspel. These #s have never been verified on an original Hartge car. The only #s that every came close are Dukes with a MAF. Never trust a tuners #s, especially w/o dyno confirmation.

RussC

http://www.behindmatrix.com/e30/fotost/ ... f01115.htm

i figure i got more than std e28 euro spec engine and if i had the proper headers it would give another 10Hp or so .

anyway i am resonably happy , have a better than std e34 535i now . will at least keep up with std euro spec e28 M535i and maybe even better it .

[russc]

Ya,
Ive seen some of those dynos. The problem is, that dyno chart with no context is useless. Does Hartge do what BMW does, dyno 10 engines and use the #s from the highest example? Is that SAE corrected? What dyno used?

This all has a bearing. At least your happy, thats what counts.

RussC

[Brent in NZ Hartge 535i]

Ya,
Ive seen some of those dynos. The problem is, that dyno chart with no context is useless. Does Hartge do what BMW does, dyno 10 engines and use the #s from the highest example? Is that SAE corrected? What dyno used?

This all has a bearing. At least your happy, thats what counts.

RussC

yes i know .
but the guy who did the dyno for me had a RHD alpina B10 3.5 e34 .
he got 141kw at the wheels , so mines not to far off .his
alpina has better cam . higher compression , lighter pistons , better headers than mine , matched ecu , afm etc .
so 133kw , with std 10:1 cr pistons , hartge head , and some sort of chipped ecu isnt to bad . there was std e34 535is there 2 days earlier came up with 112kw , and my mates e28 M535i with a cam & e34 head got 123kw .

the owner of the bussiness has also got a e30 with 3.5 4.11 diff and still an auto got 158Kw , has very wild cam and ported . balanced engine and blue printed .