M52 in e28?

[stoph99]

I drive an '87 520i, the euro model with a 2 liter M20 engine.

I'm considering an engine replacement in the next year. I like the M52 2.8, which is smooth, fairly powerful, economical. Has anyone done, or seen, or heard of dropping an M50 or M52 into an e28? And did the owner live to tell about it? What are the trickiest bits? Is this a reasonable option--or just a bucket of trouble waiting to spill?

[the artisan]

One of my buddies is working on one now for a customer and the swap is going well. He wants to put an s52 in my fiver project.

[Tammer in Philly]

I can't give you any advice on the actual swap, but I'd strongly suggest an M50B25tu instead of the M52B28. Reasons:
1) OBD-I instead of OBD-II means a lot less headache.
2) Only down 4 hp and a few lb-ft of torque, but much friendlier engine characteristics ... longer intake runners really help high-rpm breathing and they don't come up short of breath above 5500 rpm like the M52 does. Powerband is more linear and the OBD-I motor is easier to tune also.

If you do this, keep us posted!

-tammer

[the artisan]

I can't give you any advice on the actual swap, but I'd strongly suggest an M50B25tu instead of the M52B28. Reasons:
1) OBD-I instead of OBD-II means a lot less headache.
2) Only down 4 hp and a few lb-ft of torque, but much friendlier engine characteristics ... longer intake runners really help high-rpm breathing and they don't come up short of breath above 5500 rpm like the M52 does. Powerband is more linear and the OBD-I motor is easier to tune also.

If you do this, keep us posted!

-tammer

You can swtich to OBD 1 easily enough. 2.8 head is identical to the S52, uses smaller lifters (33mm vs. 35mm diameter) and conical valve springs with smaller retainer washers. The cams are the only difference, you can swap m3 cams in the 2.8 and have a great little motor.

[Tammer in Philly]

You can swtich to OBD 1 easily enough. 2.8 head is identical to the S52, uses smaller lifters (33mm vs. 35mm diameter) and conical valve springs with smaller retainer washers. The cams are the only difference, you can swap m3 cams in the 2.8 and have a great little motor.

That's all true, but it sounded like the original posted wanted to drop the motor in as it sits, especially since he mentioned economy and such. Box stock, I'd take the B25 any day and not worrying about the OBD conversion will save headaches. There will be plenty of headaches already. M3 cams can be put in the B25 head as well, from the S50B30US, should someone want to go that route.

-tammer

[the artisan]

This is true.

[stoph99]

You can swtich to OBD 1 easily enough. 2.8 head is identical to the S52, uses smaller lifters (33mm vs. 35mm diameter) and conical valve springs with smaller retainer washers. The cams are the only difference, you can swap m3 cams in the 2.8 and have a great little motor.

That's all true, but it sounded like the original posted wanted to drop the motor in as it sits, especially since he mentioned economy and such. Box stock, I'd take the B25 any day and not worrying about the OBD conversion will save headaches. There will be plenty of headaches already. M3 cams can be put in the B25 head as well, from the S50B30US, should someone want to go that route.

-tammer

Thanks for the insights guys. Artisan, I'll be interested to find out how your friend's swap goes. And if he persuades you to drop an s52 into your car, then I'll want to know all the gory details from you firsthand.

[the artisan]

No worries I will let you know, they are almost done with the swap. My buddies shop specializes in the e36 motor swaps in E30's and this is the first 5 they have done.
Kevin

[Jay in VA]

Contact bmw4aaron on this board. he can tell you. He has done the s52 swap in e30's and would know what it takes. I don't think it is that hard of a task. Nothing like his v8 in a e28 swap was.

[the artisan]

Yeah the only thing my buddy said that they ran into is figuring out which motor and tranny mounts (depends if you use a m20 tranny or e36) to use and shortening the driveshaft. Does Aaron have a site on his v8/6speed swap?
Kevin

[Skeen]

http://www.bmwe28v8.org/

[Joe in FL]

So, what mounts did they end up using?

[Wiseguy]

This is the kind of stuff that we do at my sho[. Heck, at the moment we're putting an S52 into a 1993 325is.

Here's what you will need, oversimplified.

A VANOS OBD1 ECU.

A Wiring Harness from a VANOS-Equipped S50 or M50 (Engine harness that is)

A Chip from Turner motorsports. Not sure if they do an OBD1 chip for the M52, but im sure they could knock one up. Expect to pay $399.

There's a few minor wiring and cooling hose issues to deal with, but nothing major at all.

The M52 is a very very strong engine, And vs the M50? Well for my E34 Turbo Touring project we're yanking the M50 and going with an M52. Friend of ours is getting over 640whp on stock M52 internals.

Personally I'd use an S52, but those are about $3000-3500 for a long block while M52s can be had for under a grand.

A nice setup is to use the M50/S50 intake manifold on the M52. That can pick ya up about 15hp or so they claim.. haha but it is a nice upgrade.

I can get more in-depth if needed, but, yes, it's a relatively easy swap and a very nice one at that.

[Shawn D.]

Here's what you will need, oversimplified.

A Chip from Turner motorsports.

Friend of ours is getting over 640whp on stock M52 internals.

Why do you "need" a chip to do the swap?

640 wheel horsepower? I'd like to see the dyno printout!

[stoph99]

personally, i'm a fan of the m52. my previous bimmer was a '97 328is, and i have fond memories of that motor--hence my interest in the swap. 640hp is a bit much for my requirements now. i'm sure 600 would do the trick actually tweaking an m52 to about 230-250 seems withing easy reach and wouldn't hurt driveability.

slightly off topic, but i will add that the e36 coupe is a wonderful car. i know that there are complaints about rear subframe strength on track cars, but as a daily driver it is hard to beat. the aerodynamics are so good that the rear window doesn't get wet when you drive in pouring rain, even at 40mph.

[the artisan]

Here is a proven list compliments of my buddy Chuck Waits, the guy doing the e30 swaps and now e28's. There are other versions but this will give you an idea of what you are dealing with, two exceptions the engine and tranny mounts for the e28.
E30 M50 ENGINE CONV PARTS LIST

"1. E30 88' radiator, I used the e36 unit with the lower mounts raised
2. E30 88' radiator over flow tank
3. E30 M20 fan, poss. w/clutch
4. E28 533i motor mounts w/ 5mm spacers or e28 m5 mounts with out spacers
5. E34 throttle cable
6. E21 brake booster w/ modified shaft, to 15mm or 325IX/e32 735 without mod to the shaft
7. E34 M5 or 25mm brake master cylinder w/ additional brake line used for the 325ix booster
or a e32 735i with the modified 320i booster
8. E30 325 trans X-member
9. E28 m5 or two 320i trans mounts/ which are cheaper
10. E30 M3 driveshaft or i used the front of the e36 mated to the rear of my e30 M3 have it rebalanced
11. E30 diff. w/ 3:25 ratio or E28 533i w/ 3:25 LSD
12. E30 318 ECU mount
13. E34 oil pan
14. E34 oil pickup
etc. etc.
15. E36 m3 exhaust manifold
16. M50 radiator hoses
17. E36 M3 Motronic
18. OBDI intake manifold
19. OBDI throttle body boot
20. E36 alloy mounting arms
21. OBDI wiring harness DO NOT BUY silver label “413” motronic, it has EWS (security),
it can only put into original chassis
22. the engine harness and the ECU are all E36 M3.
On the standard E30 with M20 engine fitted, you have the large round plug (C101) up on the firewall next to the brake booster.
This plug has 2 parts. One half is connected to the car wiring, and the other is connected to the engine harness.
When the M20 was removed, the engine side of the plug was removed with the engine. Now I have the S50 half of the plug in its place. Although similar in appearance, it will not plug directly into the E30 half of the plug.
I removed the E36 engine half of the plug, and replaced it with an E30 one. This then allows the 2 parts to screw back together. All you need to make sure is that you have the correct wires connected to each other. Its not just pin 1 to pin 1 and pin 2 to pin 2 etc (although some of the wires do actually connect this way).
This plug connection is the only point where the E30 & E36 wiring interface with each other. The rest of the E36 M3 engine harness is totally self contained.

23. the exhaust from the downpipe to the muffler is all custom made

[bmw4aaron]

Here is a proven list compliments of my buddy Chuck Waits, the guy doing the e30 swaps and now e28's.

That name sounds familiar. Is he in FL? I think I sold him an e30 m3 bumper skin a few years ago.

[bmw4aaron]

21. OBDI wiring harness DO NOT BUY silver label “413” motronic, it has EWS (security),
it can only put into original chassis

Wrong, a silver label can be used, you can use a EWS deletion chip or cut the EWS wire, can't think of the pin off hand, but its a green wire.

[the artisan]

Here is a proven list compliments of my buddy Chuck Waits, the guy doing the e30 swaps and now e28's.

That name sounds familiar. Is he in FL? I think I sold him an e30 m3 bumper skin a few years ago.

He is here in ATL, used to have a Red e30m3 S52 but he sold it and drives a black 96m3

[the artisan]

21. OBDI wiring harness DO NOT BUY silver label “413” motronic, it has EWS (security),
it can only put into original chassis

Wrong, a silver label can be used, you can use a EWS deletion chip or cut the EWS wire, can't think of the pin off hand, but its a green wire.

Aaron good to know
Kevin

[bmw4aaron]

Here is a proven list compliments of my buddy Chuck Waits, the guy doing the e30 swaps and now e28's.

That name sounds familiar. Is he in FL? I think I sold him an e30 m3 bumper skin a few years ago.

He is here in ATL, used to have a Red e30m3 S52 but he sold it and drives a black 96m3

He had a chuck stickly motor right? Had the car on bimmerforums or something. He had a brake booster setup that I had, but looks like his fluid resevior fit better. I wanted to ask him about it, but never got around to it.

[the artisan]

He built the motor himself, he was running 21lb injectors, 540 MAF and I know he had a stickly chip burned. His car was sick fast. From stoplight to stoplight, he was not really getting on it and we hit 95 in third. Let me know if you need to ask him a question.
Kevin

[Wiseguy]

Here's what you will need, oversimplified.

A Chip from Turner motorsports.

Friend of ours is getting over 640whp on stock M52 internals.

Why do you "need" a chip to do the swap?

640 wheel horsepower? I'd like to see the dyno printout!

You don't "Need" anything. To run an OBD2 engine in a pre-96 BMW there's 2 ways to do it.

1) Swap the entire chassis harness over, turn the car into an OBD2 car. Screw THAT although I have actually seen it done.

2) Use an OBD1 ECU and harness. That's the easy way but by doing so you are not running the correct software for said engine. You *_could_* use a regular M50 ECU in an M52, probably, and be fine. Probably maybe. But why chance it? Also, if you're using an ECU from most 95s then you also have to work around EWS, we're putting an S50 from a late 95 M3 into an E34 touring, all OBD1 but the Touring is a 1993 and not an EWS-Equipped car, so we're going to have to use a Turner chip to disable the EWS. (OK, we could theoretically add EWS to the car but that's a whole nightmare)

The 640hp car? Just go over to Bimmerforums.com and you'll see user ID "Card Counter" in the forced induction forums. His name is Ulysses... real nice guy. I saw his car pull mid 500s with 1 bad injector... the car is scary fast.

Stock internals too.

[bmw4aaron]

Here's what you will need, oversimplified.

A Chip from Turner motorsports.

Friend of ours is getting over 640whp on stock M52 internals.

Why do you "need" a chip to do the swap?

640 wheel horsepower? I'd like to see the dyno printout!

You don't "Need" anything. To run an OBD2 engine in a pre-96 BMW there's 2 ways to do it.

1) Swap the entire chassis harness over, turn the car into an OBD2 car. Screw THAT although I have actually seen it done.

2) Use an OBD1 ECU and harness. That's the easy way but by doing so you are not running the correct software for said engine. You *_could_* use a regular M50 ECU in an M52, probably, and be fine. Probably maybe. But why chance it? Also, if you're using an ECU from most 95s then you also have to work around EWS, we're putting an S50 from a late 95 M3 into an E34 touring, all OBD1 but the Touring is a 1993 and not an EWS-Equipped car, so we're going to have to use a Turner chip to disable the EWS. (OK, we could theoretically add EWS to the car but that's a whole nightmare)

The 640hp car? Just go over to Bimmerforums.com and you'll see user ID "Card Counter" in the forced induction forums. His name is Ulysses... real nice guy. I saw his car pull mid 500s with 1 bad injector... the car is scary fast.

Stock internals too.

Actually if you wanted to put EWS in a car, its not too hard. It's one wire, then you have a power and a ground. Branching off of the main EWS unit, is another box, with keyring antenna. All you need then is a Autologic, or Modic, to align the DME with the EWS unit. A bunch of other things, tie into the EWS control unit, such as starter wire, engine speed wire, central body electrics module, and LCM. I may be leaving out a few modules, but I have found out through experience what the DME needs to see to run. The Euro S50B32 race car that was my project, I had to remove all the wires that weren't needed, and since there is no EWS deletion for the euro S52 (OBD2) software, it is required to still have EWS.

[Wiseguy]

Actually if you wanted to put EWS in a car, its not too hard. It's one wire, then you have a power and a ground. Branching off of the main EWS unit, is another box, with keyring antenna. All you need then is a Autologic, or Modic, to align the DME with the EWS unit. A bunch of other things, tie into the EWS control unit, such as starter wire, engine speed wire, central body electrics module, and LCM. I may be leaving out a few modules, but I have found out through experience what the DME needs to see to run. The Euro S50B32 race car that was my project, I had to remove all the wires that weren't needed, and since there is no EWS deletion for the euro S52 (OBD2) software, it is required to still have EWS.

Yep,

I got an Autologic coming.. VERY cool tool, and well worth the money, heck of a lot better than buying a GT1 or a used Modic (Buying a used Modic is a baaaaaaad move) The problem is multifold on some of these cars tho.

See, most of the motor swaps that we do, the engines come from totalled cars. So they usually have salvage titles. Sure, we buy every wrecked private party car that we can find, but there's not enough so we have to get a lot of them from Salvage auctions so they have salvage titles.... that's the biggie.

One option is to flip the whole EWS system into the car, correct. But it's a lot of work and the parts are not cheap.

1) BMW will ONLY sell complete lock sets on modern cars with a salvage title. So the customer is screwed if he needs keys again in the future, we'd have to change ALL the locks in the car.

2) EWS Units themselves cannot be recoded once coded. They are also bucks.

You start getting cost levels that get prohibitive.

[bmw4aaron]

Actually if you wanted to put EWS in a car, its not too hard. It's one wire, then you have a power and a ground. Branching off of the main EWS unit, is another box, with keyring antenna. All you need then is a Autologic, or Modic, to align the DME with the EWS unit. A bunch of other things, tie into the EWS control unit, such as starter wire, engine speed wire, central body electrics module, and LCM. I may be leaving out a few modules, but I have found out through experience what the DME needs to see to run. The Euro S50B32 race car that was my project, I had to remove all the wires that weren't needed, and since there is no EWS deletion for the euro S52 (OBD2) software, it is required to still have EWS.

Yep,

I got an Autologic coming.. VERY cool tool, and well worth the money, heck of a lot better than buying a GT1 or a used Modic (Buying a used Modic is a baaaaaaad move) The problem is multifold on some of these cars tho.

See, most of the motor swaps that we do, the engines come from totalled cars. So they usually have salvage titles. Sure, we buy every wrecked private party car that we can find, but there's not enough so we have to get a lot of them from Salvage auctions so they have salvage titles.... that's the biggie.

One option is to flip the whole EWS system into the car, correct. But it's a lot of work and the parts are not cheap.

1) BMW will ONLY sell complete lock sets on modern cars with a salvage title. So the customer is screwed if he needs keys again in the future, we'd have to change ALL the locks in the car.

2) EWS Units themselves cannot be recoded once coded. They are also bucks.

You start getting cost levels that get prohibitive.

If i remember correctly the EWS unit can be recoded up to 9 times, before needing to replace the unit. I have been to classes on these new beaters, I know a little something

[Wiseguy]

EWS2 Units? The UTE ones?

Damn. I tried recoding them with a Modic2 and couldn't get anywhere. My guy The dealer swore they were a one time deal.

Ahh, irrespective. I'll see what the AutoLogic can do when I get it.

[fastpat]

http://www.bmwe28v8.org/

My wife has warned me not to touch her 2000 540i wagon, or I'll be sorry. 8)

[bmw4aaron]

EWS2 Units? The UTE ones?

Damn. I tried recoding them with a Modic2 and couldn't get anywhere. My guy The dealer swore they were a one time deal.

Ahh, irrespective. I'll see what the AutoLogic can do when I get it.

Now that I think about it, I think there are only 9 slots for new keys. You have to buy a new module if you go beyond 9 keys. I think you're right about the non recoding, but I swore I thought I coded some before.