E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

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socalM5
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E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by socalM5 »

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I took the M5 in for smog and I failed on hydrocarbons. I also have elevated NO AND CO. I don't know where to begin and what to start looking at.

Recently in the past year I've done a complete tune-up,
Plugs
Wires
Cap and rotor
Injectors flow Machen
New fuel regulator
New intake hoses
New o2 sensor
New fuel pumps.

Any ideas on what to look at first. I'm thinking the catalytic converter might be on its way out
tschultz
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by tschultz »

Some good info here on emissions: http://bigcoupe.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19661
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With a catalytic converter, the concentrations look like this:

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Obviously in the small range around the shaded part, the emissions are very low. So, the trick to passing smog is a) to get the air fuel ration in that region, and b) to understand why it isn't in that region (assuming you are not passing).
Causes of rich running can include:
- Bad plugs
- Mis set AFM
- Excessive fuel pressure
- Bad coolant sensor (the ECU senses the temp and richens the mix when the car is cold), or bad wiring between the coolant sensor and the ECU
- Bad air temp sensor in the AFM (the ECU richens the mix when the air is cold, because cold air is denser, so it takes more gas to maintain the 14.72:1 air fuel ratio

Causes of lean running can include:
- vacuum leaks (oil cap, valve cover, dip stick seal, breather hose between the throttle body and the valve cover (basically almost inaccessible), throttle body bellows leaks, manifold leaks, etc)
- Mis Set AFM
- Low fuel pressure
- Leaky valves
Verify you have no vacuum leaks causing air to enter the engine when it shouldn't be. Since you have replaced most components, this makes sense.

You seem to be on the right track since all three levels are elevated, it could be something related to the CAT. I'd verify your CTS is good and not causing it to run too rich and overheat the cat. Next, check the output voltage of the O2 sensor to verify if the signal is staying close to stoich or rich/lean. This will tell you if if it CAT problem or something upstream (and verify if it is rich or lean running)
socalM5
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by socalM5 »

How do you check the output voltage to the o2
tschultz
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by tschultz »

The white wire on the O2 sensor. You need to read the voltage coming off the signal wire once the engine is warm and idling.
If your car is not passing smog, the first thing to check is the basic operation of the sensor. You can do this with a meter, or you can make or buy a little LED display. If you put a meter on the signal line (while it is hooked up and the car is running), the meter should sort of wobble around, never quite settling on any voltage (put the meter on a 1 volt, or 2 volt scale). If this is happening, and the car is still not passing smog, then the cat is probably not working.

If the O2 sensor output is pegged at 1 volt, then either the car is running very rich, or the sensor is not hooked up to anything (this is common on Euro cars..the sensor is there for appearances and isn't actually doing anything).

If the sensor output is at zero, then it is either not operational, or the car is running very lean. On Motronic cars, as I recall, the ECU will default to 0.5 volts if the O2 sensor is bad, so if the output is not zero, but is lower than about .6 volts and is not changing, then the sensor is probably bad.
socalM5
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by socalM5 »

What reading should I get with the coolant temp sensor with a volt meter
socalM5
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by socalM5 »

Another quick question ever since I purchased the car a couple years ago my temperature gauge on the cluster never goes past 11 o'clock on my car. its not getting up to normal operating temperature should I say 12 o'clock. Would that cause it to run rich meaning the cts is telling the motor to burn more fuel?
Mike W.
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by Mike W. »

O2 sensor should average about half a volt. Technically .45V. But always on the move, up and down, up and down. Like .5, .7, .2, .3, .2, .8, .3, .5. Running too cold could increase HC, but it would also decrease Nox, which is normally the hardest one to pass. Was the cat good and hot when you went in there? That alone can make a huge difference. I don't know S38s as well, but on it's more ordinary E28 brethren, HC and CO are usually easy, Nox often difficult.
tschultz
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by tschultz »

Also temp gauge at 11pm is where you want it. 12 pm and it's hot out or the aux fan maybe isn't working right.
Last edited by tschultz on Dec 12, 2016 9:28 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Blue Shadow
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by Blue Shadow »

socalM5 wrote:Another quick question ever since I purchased the car a couple years ago my temperature gauge on the cluster never goes past 11 o'clock on my car. its not getting up to normal operating temperature should I say 12 o'clock. Would that cause it to run rich meaning the cts is telling the motor to burn more fuel?
Because your car should have an 80°C/176°F thermostat in it and the thermostat should open fully at any temp above 176°F and allow coolant to flow out to the radiator, that never seeing 12:00 on the gauge is fine, better, that it actually reaching 12:00.

http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=104548
socalM5
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by socalM5 »

I will have to check the o2 sensor reading and the coolant temp sensor tomorrow. Do you think the cat could be bad?
Mike W.
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by Mike W. »

socalM5 wrote:I will have to check the o2 sensor reading and the coolant temp sensor tomorrow. Do you think the cat could be bad?
It could be, and it's close enough a new cat would probably get it to pass, but I doubt it. New cats usually have just amazing numbers, but even good ones don't stay that way. Charles (Karl Grau) recently had troubles with his M5, but eventually got it to pass. Not guaranteeing anything, but check his post and the next few. Also, again, was your cat hot when you took it in? If it wasn't, that alone is enough to make it fail. It doesn't work until it's hot.

http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?f=2& ... 3#p1393453
Karl Grau
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by Karl Grau »

[edit, I see Mike types faster than I do :) ]

tschultz wrote: I'd verify your CTS is good and not causing it to run too rich and overheat the cat.
I just went through this with my M5 and I'm pretty confident that replacing the CTS made the difference although looking at the OPs numbers he could still have a failing cat.

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For round 2, I replaced CTS, plugs, cap, rotor, plugs, o2 sensor, air filter and I also changed the oil. The CTS appeared to be the original one from 1987 with 300k on it, all the other replaced items seemed to be in great shape so I don't suspect them.

Results from the second try:

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socalM5
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by socalM5 »

What do you guys think about the NO being at 500? I just don't understand how that can be high when the rest is running rich? I will definitely replace the cts and retest again
bk_856er
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by bk_856er »

What's your pre-test protocol and what's the age of your cat?

Best to bring it in after >20 miles at speed, don't shut it off, get it tested. Takes coordination with the tech. A hot cat is a happy/efficient cat.

Of course you could still have some other minor issues or a tired cat, but you may also squeak by on retest.

BK
socalM5
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by socalM5 »

It's original to the car 230k miles
tn535i
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Re: E28 m5 FAILED Smog high hydrocarbons

Post by tn535i »

First you must establish that the DME sees the engine as up to temp. The CTS should be about 300-350 ohms if it's hot and IIRC. IF your CTS is know good but does not get down below 400 then the engine runs enriched and the t-stat or some other problem will not let it warm up regardless of what the gauge says... or the CTS is bad. A new blue Bosch CTS is NOT A BAD IDEA for <$20. The dash gauge is for relative temp not accurate engine management, 11:00, 12:00, whatever, means nothing. Mine runs middle fwiw. You could also drop your CTS in boiling water to test it if you like but IF you have a temp probe you can measure the head that is a great idea.

Second you must see the O2 and DME doing it's balance. On the S38 IIRC you can monitor the O2 sensor as the DME sees it on Pin 5 of the diagnostic port but the signal will be 0-10v or something like that. IF it does not dither or swing as described above you have no chance of passing, remember if you use diagnostic the voltage will be different though and I think it will balance going above and below about 5v. And IF it dithers OK with throttle cracked open but not at idle it means you need to adjust the AFM bypass screw to get it to dither at idle like it does open, assuming it's up to temp and all is well.

But now since you have an S38 there could also be trouble with the balance of the ITB's causing some mixture issues and variation the engine can't adjust for. When was the last time the ITB's were synced? Once mixture is established the best the DME can by the O2 any one cylinder could still be way off, or two or more at small throttle positions. I can see it being too rich one place and too lean another and then high everything. This is less likely with a single T/B and all cylinders having the same vacuum level.

So before you go replacing an expensive cat only to find out it's not 100% better you should focus on the engine management and ITB tuning I think.

And btw the S38 really needs a once over every 15k miles and you said you have 230k? Once over means valve adjust, new plugs, ITB balance as minimum... cap, rotor, filters if needed.
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