LED headlight and other lamps in an E28 ???

[MisterFixit]

Hey,
I constantly get questions asking about my LED rear light conversion, even though I state that LED lamps are not being used as yet.
Latest question was about LED headlight replacements- just the lamp, not the entire unit.

JW Speaker sells (at around $1600) a very nice LED 4-headlight setup, but I suspect not too many forum members can afford that.

WeissLicht also makes a range of LED lamps for turns, reverse, headlights, fog lights, and more - but their oldest 5er application is the E34, nothing for the E28. However, they do sell a couple of items for E24 six series, very similar to E28 lights.

So who is really interested in this? I know there are several of you out there... you pester me every now and then!

Headlight and fog light LED include: H1, H3, H4, H7, H8, H11, H13, HB3, HB4, and HB5. I requested a secret decoder to tell me what to order to get an H1, H4, etc. Their part numbers are totally nonsensical, related to chassis (F20, E9X, etc.), but not to bulb type, which is what I know more about. So I can at least speak intelligently about cost when asked about LED brake lights, turn signals, etc.

WeissLicht has two lines of headlight lamps- FLEX (braided flexible copper heat sink, 30 sq. inches) and MAX (fin heat sink, fins reverse for clearance).
Both are up around 3000 lumens, significantly higher than even the best HIR (Halogen Infrared Reflector) lamps at 1800-2100, both claim 5,000 K color temperature which is close to daylight without getting too bluish. Both claim very broad light distribution, two sided with a hemispherical or 'fish-eye' lens to cover essentially all of the reflectors, and (you knew this was coming), both claimed to be for 'off-road and show use only.'

I have a dealer relationship for the Weisslicht Spectrum, MAX and FLEX product lines, but haven't ordered any yet. They rin $79 - $119 a pair and up, but come with a three year warranty, not bad in the LED industry!

So who wants to chime in - anyone have a set of these in their car and want to share their experience and opinions?

[jhh925]

I'd be interested for sure in LED replacements for all the headlight bulbs, including the little running lights in the big Euro lenses.

[MisterFixit]

I'd be interested for sure in LED replacements for all the headlight bulbs, including the little running lights in the big Euro lenses.

I feel your pain. Euro lows are particularly frustrating, they use an H4 but only light the dim filament ... not sure how that helps light the road, but boy they sure are popular to individualize the car! Maybe with a far brighter light source they will come back up to more modern standards?

H1 highs are more respectable, they seem to be OK with a decent halogen and should be fantastic with an LED.

Let's be sure to have you review these on the forum, many will be glad to hear a real world LED experience.

I looked at the little bulb (City Light) below the main low beam bulb, they look like a mini bayonet, or 'ba9s' in bulb-speak. Should be pretty easy to find. I assume you want 'white' and not a colored lamp?

Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!

[dcains]

I've seen a few of these LED headlamp "bulb" installa, and they're not any batter than the HID kits. The reflector is made for a small light source in a specific position (the filament), and simply installing a larger light source to flood the housing with light completely screws up the focused beam pattern. Poor performance for the driver, and lots of glare for the rest of us. In this case, the "off-road" qualifier is totally appropriate, IMO.

As an aside, are you sure about the price on those Speaker LED headlamps? I had a set in one of my Alfa Spider's, and paid ~$500 for the pair. They were fantastic lights, but just didn't look "correct", so I put the Amplilux lamps back in.

[MisterFixit]

I've seen a few of these LED headlamp "bulb" installs and they're not any better than the HID kits. The reflector is made for a small light source in a specific position (the filament), and simply installing a larger light source to flood the housing with light completely screws up the focused beam pattern. Poor performance for the driver, and lots of glare for the rest of us. In this case, the "off-road" qualifier is totally appropriate, IMO.

I am not yet convinced, but remain open. The particular items I am looking into are pretty much point source, on the order of 1/4 inch, which is about the same dimension as a filament. Same order of magnitude. I am sensitive to the notion of moving the light source out of the focus, so will be very careful to compare them to stock H1 lamps

When they arrive I am going to measure them, and perhaps install them in my car as a test-run. Halogen on one side, LED on the other, masking for an A-B comparison. Maybe I'll even take pictures... The main thing is to see them in action, real world performance.

As an aside, are you sure about the price on those Speaker LED headlamps? I had a set in one of my Alfa Spider's, and paid ~$500 for the pair. They were fantastic lights, but just didn't look "correct", so I put the Amplilux lamps back in.

Been a while since I saw them on line, they may have come down. I may be mistaken, perhaps they were $800 a pair, not each ... I'll take another look and see if I can find the site again.

UPDATE - found a site selling them at $350-410 each, so not surprised you got a pair at $500. Right in the ballpark.

[dcains]

I'll be curious to see the he results, and technology is always advancing. I'm quite happy with the Hella Bi-focus H1's as low beams in my E24, even with 55w bulbs. But, the wiring is all upgraded to 12awg, and the alternator never drops below 14v. Whatever bulbs or LEDs you choose, they'll only perform optimally if given all the voltage/current they require. I'd be surprised if any of our 3-decade old cars didn't have a substantial voltage drop at the headlight sockets with the original wiring. Even a half volt makes a big difference in light output.

[MisterFixit]

OK, update- I found several folks selling the Weisslicht FLEX LED lights, and they all claim they will NOT work in an E28 without 'hyper-flashing.'

When I asked them what could cause this, they said they did not know, just that the lights blinked on and off non-stop.
"So," I said, "If I connect them to a constant 12V DC power source, they don't work steadily?"
"No, they blink on and off," he said. "Not flickering, hyper-flashing." I think he may have been confusing headlight with turn signal lamps.

Another one said the wiring in older cars like the E28 weren't able to handle LED lights, because they had no computers.... right. My assumption is he didn't know what he was talking about, so I said thanks for your help and hung up.

I finally talked to a guy who admitted knowing something about using them in older cars, who said they sometimes work fine, sometimes flicker. They sell a 'compact error canceler' ($15/pair) that is said to fix the flicker in cases where they do this, but that all cars do not need it.

Seems like if I want to see how they work in an E28 headlight, I have to buy a pair and put them in. They are returnable, is there anyone who'd like to give them a shot?

[dcains]

Wow, they must be truly uninformed about their own product, which is concerning, and certainly not going to help their sales. No reason at all the LED headlight "bulbs" should do that.

As for the signals, you have two choices. Resistors in each circuit, which is generally a pain in the ass, or you can simply swap the flasher unit to an LED-compatible electronic unit. It's in the upper steering column housing, took me maybe 10 minutes to swap (E24), and cost ~$15. LED signals in all 4 corners work perfectly and flash at a normal rate.

[e28Sean]

I'm running LEDs for nearly all of my secondary lighting:
parkies / city lights
front turn signals
rear turn signals
side markers
reverse lights
Interior dome lights

THe only change I had to make was to replace my turn signal flasher with a solid state, LED compatible one.

[dcains]

Me, too, in my E24. Don't forget about the trunk and hood lights.

[puma1824]

What's the latest on this? I have my E28 project wrapping up and would like to upgrade to LED on all lights. I'd like to keep the Headlights on the warm side (2700–3000 K).

[MisterFixit]

I still have no personal experience with the Weisslicht LED headlamp units. Nobody has stepped up or contacted me to purchase a pair, so still a mystery. They claim a 5000K color temp. Close to daylight at 5600K.

Is there a specific reason you want a 'warm white' effect? There seem to be plenty of offerings in the 6, 7, and 8,000 K color temperatures, what the marketing people call 'Super-White' or 'Hyper White' or 'Extreme White' - all of which is pure crap. Blue is blue, no matter what the Cheshire Cat says. Pale blue, medium blue, dark blue - it's all BLUE.

A clear envelope and a properly excited filament at rated voltage will produce what your eyes perceive as white light. Voltage drop, as we should all know, will bias the light towards the 'red' end of the spectrum because the filament is not fully excited, meaning you don't have all the colors of the rainbow to make it look 'white' - which we should know is a combination of all colors.

All that said, I'd rather see a warm white than a blue-white headlight. I don't think you'll get 2700 - 3000K from this particular product.

I am still looking for a guinea pig to try these lamps and report to the forum - remember, they are returnable / refundable if they aren't fully satisfactory...

[puma1824]

I still have no personal experience with the Weisslicht LED headlamp units. Nobody has stepped up or contacted me to purchase a pair, so still a mystery. They claim a 5000K color temp. Close to daylight at 5600K.

Is there a specific reason you want a 'warm white' effect? There seem to be plenty of offerings in the 6, 7, and 8,000 K color temperatures, what the marketing people call 'Super-White' or 'Hyper White' or 'Extreme White' - all of which is pure crap. Blue is blue, no matter what the Cheshire Cat says. Pale blue, medium blue, dark blue - it's all BLUE.

A clear envelope and a properly excited filament at rated voltage will produce what your eyes perceive as white light. Voltage drop, as we should all know, will bias the light towards the 'red' end of the spectrum because the filament is not fully excited, meaning you don't have all the colors of the rainbow to make it look 'white' - which we should know is a combination of all colors.

All that said, I'd rather see a warm white than a blue-white headlight. I don't think you'll get 2700 - 3000K from this particular product.

I am still looking for a guinea pig to try these lamps and report to the forum - remember, they are returnable / refundable if they aren't fully satisfactory...

I wanted warm white effect because I wanted better lighting but not obviously not stock (blue light). When at the 6,7,8K temps too cold aka Blue for me which just looks completely off / tacky in my eyes. 5K might be ok. I may be game for being the guinea pig

[brickwhite]

Has anyone converted to a H4 or H1 LED bulb?

You can buy the ebay ones pretty cheap.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/H4-HB2-9003-4- ... Sww7tb1nIn

or the expensive ones... with lens

https://vintagecarleds.com/shop/5-75-in ... -inch-kit/

[e28Sean]

Please... just no.
Don't run these drop in LEDs in housings meant for halogen bulbs. Worst case, you can't see crap. Best case, you can see, but you blind oncoming traffic and no-one else can see crap.
If you want to run LEDs for headlights, replace the entire fixture.

That said.... pretty much all of my secondary lighting (parkies, side markers, brake lights, turns, etc...) are LEDs. That's 100% A-Okay in my book.

[de Witt]

Please... just no.
Don't run these drop in LEDs in housings meant for halogen bulbs. Worst case, you can't see crap. Best case, you can see, but you blind oncoming traffic and no-one else can see crap.
If you want to run LEDs for headlights, replace the entire fixture.

That said.... pretty much all of my secondary lighting (parkies, side markers, brake lights, turns, etc...) are LEDs. That's 100% A-Okay in my book.

The lenses are HR, which is halogen or LED, just saying.

https://vintagecarleds.com/shop/5-75-in ... -inch-kit/

[MisterFixit]

The lenses are HR, which is halogen or LED, just saying.
https://vintagecarleds.com/shop/5-75-in ... -inch-kit/

Actually, HR is a code for 'Halogen Road' (High) Beam. It is one of three markings you find on most halogen / reflector lights.
It comes from the French for Low and High beam:
HC = Halogène Codè -- (dipped or Low Beam)
HR = Halogène Route -- (main, road or High Beam)
HCR = Halogène Code/Route -- Low and High beams, almost always an H4 lamp.
Not sure if I got the accent marks correct above ... forgive me if you are French and know these things.

As I understand it, 'H' in this marking is for Halogen, and its use on headlight lenses predates LED and HID light sources for automotive use by many decades. The nice folks at Vintage Car LEDs may or may not be aware of this, they'd have to go some way to convince me.

[de Witt]

The lenses are HR, which is halogen or LED, just saying.
https://vintagecarleds.com/shop/5-75-in ... -inch-kit/

Actually, HR is a code for 'Halogen Road' (High) Beam. It is one of three markings you find on most halogen / reflector lights.
It comes from the French for Low and High beam:
HC = Halogène Codè -- (dipped or Low Beam)
HR = Halogène Route -- (main, road or High Beam)
HCR = Halogène Code/Route -- Low and High beams, almost always an H4 lamp.
Not sure if I got the accent marks correct above ... forgive me if you are French and know these things.

As I understand it, 'H' in this marking is for Halogen, and its use on headlight lenses predates LED and HID light sources for automotive use by many decades. The nice folks at Vintage Car LEDs may or may not be aware of this, they'd have to go some way to convince me.

Im looking at the daniel stern codes and he has HR as I mentioned, but I overlooked it is for ECE. I checked on the vintageled headlamp it it says SAE which is headlight bulb replaceable or similar, so perhaps. No pictures of headlamps in use which is an issue for me as well, but not that it matters, I have the cibies in my old E28 M5 and Im probably going to pop in a set of E34 smileys in my recently acquired E28 M5 project car. Might try LEDs, but HIDs are what I know.

[garageboy]

I cannot believe this note is dead. Has anyone made progress here?

I re-visited this issue due to an upcoming E28 road trip (to be discussed) as I'm older and my headlights truly do suck ass. I looked at Daniel Stern's page, and his setup seems to still be the gold standard, at about $350.

I was considering these from Amazon, but wasn't sure whether they were crap or not. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G7A9YS/ for the low beams, and https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G76Q9K/ for the high beams...

If anyone has recent new knowledge, please share!

[Shawn D.]

I was considering these from Amazon, but wasn't sure whether they were crap or not. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G7A9YS/ for the low beams, and https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G76Q9K/ for the high beams...

If anyone has recent new knowledge, please share!

I've been running those lights for years -- they're great.

[MisterFixit]

Yep, Daniel Stern has lots of good stuff, tons of knowledge, and practices honestly. He recommends the best solution without breaking your bank.

As far as aging and vision degradation, I can testify ... it does suck. Three solutions occur to me; maybe you can come up with more, like bionic infrared telescopic optical implants... but I will stick to the affordable.

1) Stop Driving (the trivial solution, because it solves nothing).

2) Drive with the lights you have, maybe with better lamps for greater output (slowly and safely, of course).

3) Replace the lights entirely, use better lamps, and drive it like you stole it... well, maybe like you enjoy driving!

Really, the solution you choose will depend on HOW and WHERE you drive - city, highway, urban, rural, sedate or enthusiastic are some of the terms used. MOST folks need good low beams because their life is spent in traffic - in town or on highways, high beams are used less due to increasing population. ESPECIALLY aging drivers - reduced road maintenance, more potholes, unconscious cellphone toting self absorbed zombies - all these require good vision and short reaction times. This requires good low beams, and increasingly, auxiliary lighting for near field vision improvement.

I don't know why, but the good lighting solutions for low beams in the 145mm format (what we call 5-3/4 inch) are disappearing rapidly. Cibie's CSR, and now Hella's BiFocal lights have become NLA. Hella and Cibié / Valeo have been making lights forever, but only a very small handful of great ones like those mentioned.

So what to do? Buy the best lights you can afford, cover them with headlight protection film, use high output STANDARD wattage lamps, and do it IMMEDIATELY, because the supply going down means only one thing - price going up, up, and away.

I know of three pairs of Bifocals left in the country, and price is not officially in, but is getting closer to, nosebleed territory. Email or pm me.

And as far as LED solutions - I think I'll wait to see if they can get the glare issues resolved before climbing onto that wagon. Mean while, I believe that five or six aircraft landing lights mounted on the roof and tied into the high beam circuit could do some good... but is not really the best solution.

Maybe a couple of them rear-facing for drivers following with high-altitude poorly aimed headlights? Call them off-road reverse lights... that's it!

OK, I'm down, so anyone interested in the last of the BiFocal low beams, get in touch soon. There's a very limited number remaining.

[Mike W.]

I cannot believe this note is dead. Has anyone made progress here?

I re-visited this issue due to an upcoming E28 road trip (to be discussed) as I'm older and my headlights truly do suck ass. I looked at Daniel Stern's page, and his setup seems to still be the gold standard, at about $350.

I was considering these from Amazon, but wasn't sure whether they were crap or not. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G7A9YS/ for the low beams, and https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G76Q9K/ for the high beams...

If anyone has recent new knowledge, please share!

I have been very happy with lights I've ordered from http://classicgarage.com/ great price and IMO performance on a par with Hella, which while good, I think are somewhat overrated and overpriced. Cibie's are the best I've used, but I don't think they're available anymore and even more expensive. It's not new technology, search Amazon and ebay, and try to figure out why Classic Garage says BMWs need special ones, I'm not sure I've gotten them, but I might have. From what I've heard you do not want a bulb shield, or cut it out if you do get it.

I'll differ with Andy on higher wattage bulbs, for years I ran 85-100 lows in my E28, adjusted slightly low, but just slightly, and never got flashed. At worst you would not be anywhere near the pickup truck crowd who can see signs a half mile ahead just fine, but not the road in front of them. I even did it without a relay, but that would be advised. They do have a shorter lifespan so buy spares if you go that route. Another plug for Classic Garage is you can order higher wattage bulbs when you purchase the headlight assembly and they'll do a substitution for just the difference in price of the bulbs. Been a while now, but I've made several purchases from them and been very happy.

[garageboy]

I was considering these from Amazon, but wasn't sure whether they were crap or not. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G7A9YS/ for the low beams, and https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G76Q9K/ for the high beams...

If anyone has recent new knowledge, please share!

I've been running those lights for years -- they're great.

Thank you. I just ordered them!

[Bonsaibacker]

I was considering these from Amazon, but wasn't sure whether they were crap or not. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G7A9YS/ for the low beams, and https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G76Q9K/ for the high beams...

If anyone has recent new knowledge, please share!

I've been running those lights for years -- they're great.

Thank you. I just ordered them!

Considering myself, can we get a follow up review?

[garageboy]

I was considering these from Amazon, but wasn't sure whether they were crap or not. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G7A9YS/ for the low beams, and https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G76Q9K/ for the high beams...

If anyone has recent new knowledge, please share!

I've been running those lights for years -- they're great.

Thank you. I just ordered them!

Considering myself, can we get a follow up review?

Sure, here's my data point: I have had these lights (replaced all four) for about a year-and-a-half now. Obviously, or not so obviously, I have been driving far less in 2020 than in normal years, but I did have these lights installed before my 11,400 mile roadtrip to Yellowstone in 2019. They got a good amount of serious usage. In fact, on that trip, one of the glass low-beams picked up a rock and created a 3-mm hole in the glass. The good news is that the bulb still worked just fine, monsoons and all. I made the trip home without issue. When I got home I ordered another pair on Amazon (by then the price had dropped from $91 to $69), replaced it easily, and have a spare for the future.

I don't think they're particularly fragile, and I abuse my car, generally, because in the end it is just a car, but I thought I should disclose that one of four broke. As far as the light pattern, they're bright, and have a very defined light pattern. The high beams are exceptional; they instill confidence. Frankly, they're better than my dirty ol' E39 lights (but those are adjuster-broken Xenons right now).

I'm usually highly skeptical about aftermarket upgrades, but this was worth the money and effort, and it is a clear improvement over the crappy sealed beam crap from the 1980s. It made my roadtrip much safer, as there were multiple occurrences when I had to stop in time (twice animals, once an item fell off a truck in front of me), and while it probably would have ended without issue, it was really helpful to have good lighting. Is there better? That I do not know -- I suspect there may be; I am only qualified to comment on these devices.

Now I have to figure out how to make my instrument cluster brighter so that I don't have to wear reading glasses on the end of my nose in order to see the odometer anymore. Getting old sucks, but, yeah, it's better than the alternative...

[Mike W.]

Now I have to figure out how to make my instrument cluster brighter so that I don't have to wear reading glasses on the end of my nose in order to see the odometer anymore. Getting old sucks, but, yeah, it's better than the alternative...

If it's any consolation, you've got company. Speedo and gauges are ok, but the odo at night...

[cscracker]

I put cheap Chinese LED headlight assemblies on my car a couple years ago, and they still work perfect. viewtopic.php?p=1472569#p1472569

I got them on aliexpress, but these LED sealed-beam replacements are all over amazon now, too, and they're relatively inexpensive, around $50-75 each. They're not the prettiest, but they work great. I wish my e90 had sealed beams so I could put them on there, too (its headlights are trash).