Miller WAR chip success???

[M5BB]

Is anyone running the Miller WAR chip on their M5?
Have you had success with it?
Is your engine stock or modified?
Programming, dyno tuning etc?
If you had problems what were they?
Were you able to improve performance?

[mooseheadm5]

Subscribed.

[ClubSport]

I have a customer that will be running a W.A.R chip/MAF on his modified S38 in the near future....it will have mild headwork, Schrick cams and Euro Headers

I'll be sure to post the results

[kerry]

So, whatever happened here?

[M5BB]

Take a look at this and see what you think?

Miller MAF & WAR chip tuned on Dyno

http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=81942

[kerry]

Ah yes. This was impressive. Quite interesting what your results say about the potential of these engines and how to bring it out. I agree with the discussion. It's all in the compression. Of course like Paul described, you've got to have the right cam timing to get it right. For us old enough to remember, that was what really killed the engines in the mid to late 70's.

BTW, you identified who helped you with the dyno tuning, but who did your head work. I assume that they cleaned up the transition in the bowl area, but while they were in there, why didn't you also go with the larger valves of the B36? Or am I mistaken and the B35 & B36 used the same diameter?

Thanks
Kerry

[48230M5]

I have had some success and some frustration with my Miller MAF and WAR chip. You may remember me commenting on the "dyno runs" thread.

Let me start from the beginning: When I purchased my car it was pretty much stock, it ran smoothly, started well, but I could tell it was running lean and wasn't delivering the power it should. It would intermittantly "kick in" and deliver better power, usually this could be felt before it fully warmed up. I tried running in "open loop" by unhooking the O2 lead. This helped a little. I then replaced the O2 with a brand new one...not much difference. I had planned on doing an MAF conversion on the car and installing a new exhaust as soon as I could afford it. Even though I should have got it sorted as/is first, I decided to go ahead and purchase the Miller set up and a BB tri-flo exhaust and hope that the stock AFM was causing my lean condition.

It took the Miller set-up a couple weeks to arrive because they were out of stock on the MAF. First I installed the exhaust, I also removed the material inside my cats, thinking this could also be contributing to my lack of power. It ran a little better after this, but still not where it should be. Still started well, still idled smooth, just not as much power as it should have.

When the Miller set up arrived I was eager to install it. I ordered the MAF with WAR chip and a silicone adapter hose to mate it to the stock bellows. I was a little disappointed that I hadn't been told that I would have to source myself something to attach the silicone hose to the bellows. I also did not recieve the knob that switches between programmed "tunes". Apparently that was out of stock too. It was another month until I recieved it. I got everything installed and followed the directions to a "t". (Side note: During installation, I discovered that my car had a Dinan eprom installed at some point).

I tried to start the car after the install, it cranked and would run for a split second, then stall. After 3 times of stalling it would stay running if I feathered the gas. It was the weekend and Miller wasn't open. I left the car in the garage, felt defeated and sent out an email to MIller.

On monday, I talked to Brody at Miller and he gave me some troubleshooting steps to try. Everything checked out good. He said to get the car running let it warm up and take it for a ride. I did this. The car bucked and lurched and would not rev over 4000rpm.

I had Brody send me the stock tune again to make sure my chip had been properly "pre-loaded". Re-loaded the new tune, same results. I thought I may have had a fuel delivery issue made worse by the new performance equipment. I checked and found that my in-tank pump was not running. I figured this contributed to the lean condition and I replaced it. I replaced the main pump too, and the fuel filter. I figured it was good preventative maintenance since it had been running with the non-fuctioning in-tank pump.

After all that, it still ran exactly the same. I decided to try richening everything up, idle, part throttle and WOT. Initially I was editing "tune 1" to do this. Nothing was changing!! After a lot of frustration, I discovered that the car ran on "default" without the knob hooked up, not "tune 1". This would not have been an issue had the knob showed up as it was supposed to. After enriching, test driving, over and over, I finally got it to a point it ran "pretty good". Idled well, decent part throttle,and finally the power I was looking for at WOT.

After talking with Brody some more, I was convinced to buy and install a wide-band O2 gauge. This required adding a bung for an additional O2 sensor in the exhaust as well. It is cool to have, and I wish it would have been recommended earlier. Also I may not have even bought the WAR chip had I known I'd need to spend another $300 on this set up. WIth the gooahj installed, I found that my part throttle map was still really lean. After richening it up, it helped everything a lot. I forgot to mention, through out this whole time, the start up still went exactly like the first time. 3 tries, feather the gas, let it run for 5 minutes, then ready to drive. And that was in 60 degree weather. Luckily the car isn't my DD.

I finally got my tuning knob and now I could play with comparing tunes. I tried tweaking timing and mixture and it yeilded some good performance gains. But, still no luck with my cold start.

I had several failed attempts at talking to someone at Miller to help me out. I was sent a special tune to accomidate my poor cold start. That tune wouldn't work at all, the parameters for RPM are not even the same as what my stock tune was. And starting from it and tweaking to the values I had used on my "custom tune" still resulted in a really lean condition. They also sent me a new stock tune labeled 079 ECU MAF. It was completely different than my first "stock tune" that I was sent. And it was much closer to where I had ended up with my custom tune.

I also realized around this time that my fuel pressure regulator was faulty. It did not change pressure with or without vacuum applied. Changing this and using the new stock tune yielded pretty good results. But my cold start has never changed. I also replaced my coolant temp sensor, even though it tested well.

So, that's as far as I got. Runs pretty good, great power, terrible cold start. My next step is to have my injectors flowed and matched. At that point I have checked or changed almost everything. In case you are wondering: no vacuum leaks either.

Miller claims that this tune works well on other cars, no cold start problems. But it doesn't on mine. It essentially runs like a carbeurated car with a non-functioning choke.

My conclusion: DON'T install on a car that isn't running perfect to start with. DON'T install unless you have trusted dyno tuner to use. And DON'T install unless you have some time and money to dedicate to sorting it ESPECIALLY if it is a daily driver.

If anyone has any suggestions to make my car start normally, I'd love to hear them. The only way I can get it to start on the first crank is to unhook the coolant temp sensor and put it in a super-rich limp mode.

Sorry for the long-winded story...

[48230M5]

Another couple thoughts:

Be aware that the Miller software only works on windows XP or older. My laptop runs Vista and its owned by my company so I wasn't comfortable with changing the OS. I ended up buying a used Netbook to use as my dedicated "tuning computer".

If anyone has a really good dyno tuner to recommend I'd be interested in making a road trip this spring to get this car properly dialed in. I'm in MI. I go to OH and KY for work. I also have a work conference in Denver this April. If I could combine something with one of these trips it would be ideal.

[ClubSport]

What is your AFR right when your WB02 turns on?

[Rich Euro M5]

ISo, that's as far as I got. Runs pretty good, great power, terrible cold start. My next step is to have my injectors flowed and matched. At that point I have checked or changed almost everything. In case you are wondering: no vacuum leaks either.

Miller claims that this tune works well on other cars, no cold start problems. But it doesn't on mine. It essentially runs like a carbeurated car with a non-functioning choke.

If anyone has any suggestions to make my car start normally, I'd love to hear them. The only way I can get it to start on the first crank is to unhook the coolant temp sensor and put it in a super-rich limp mode..

You believe you don't have any vacuum leaks, are you really certain? Check the Evaporative Purge Valve (EPV)and make certain it's closed during cold start. For test purposes I'd let the carbon cannister vent to atmosphere and plug the vacuum line between the EPV and the intake plenum / ITB.

Have you checked for vacuum leaks around the valve cover, spark plug hole ports, the block off plate in front of the intake cam, the rear of the distributor housing, the rear of the cam box, and the oil fill cap. Has the seal on the exhaust cam been replaced. What about crankshaft seals at both ends, the gaskets around the lower timing chain cover, oil pan, between the cam box and the timing chain cover. Oil dipstick and the connection to the intake plenum. There are a multitude of places for vacuum leaks on the S38 engine.

Another item which can screw up the mixture is the barometric switch. This is designed to lean the A/F ratio with an increase in altitude. IIRC, disconnecting it defaults to full rich.

Rich

[48230M5]

You believe you don't have any vacuum leaks, are you really certain? Check the Evaporative Purge Valve (EPV)and make certain it's closed during cold start. For test purposes I'd let the carbon cannister vent to atmosphere and plug the vacuum line between the EPV and the intake plenum / ITB.

Have you checked for vacuum leaks around the valve cover, spark plug hole ports, the block off plate in front of the intake cam, the rear of the distributor housing, the rear of the cam box, and the oil fill cap. Has the seal on the exhaust cam been replaced. What about crankshaft seals at both ends, the gaskets around the lower timing chain cover, oil pan, between the cam box and the timing chain cover. Oil dipstick and the connection to the intake plenum. There are a multitude of places for vacuum leaks on the S38 engine.

Another item which can screw up the mixture is the barometric switch. This is designed to lean the A/F ratio with an increase in altitude. IIRC, disconnecting it defaults to full rich.

Thanks for the advise. I didn't realize there were so many places to check. What is the easiest method for checking? Simply spraying carb cleaner near these spots?

Again. The car started flawlessly before the MAF and War Chip install. Does that fit with the vacuum leak theory?

As far as mixture, it reads about 18:1 at start up. Then after a couple minutes of running it seems to (somewhat suddenly) smooth out, jump to about 12.5:1 and increase to a higher idle. A quick tap of the gas brings it down to a normal idle and then It can be driven.

SHOULD I JUST COMPLETELY UN-INSTALL THE MILLER PARTS, RE-INSTALL THE STOCK AFM AND START OVER?

[mooseheadm5]

Another item which can screw up the mixture is the barometric switch. This is designed to lean the A/F ratio with an increase in altitude. IIRC, disconnecting it defaults to full rich.

Rich

Unplugging it defaults to normal operation without baro sensor influence. I commonly unplug them to see if they are causing issues and usually run my cars without them.

[M5BB]

Wow, I never had those problems.

Yes, the Miller can be a little frustrating as the documentation
can be a little vague particularly with the program.
I never had any start up or running issues.

Are you getting fast idle?
I know you checked the water temp sensor but you need to check the wiring also to make sure the signal is getting to the ECU.
Doesn't sound like the idle enrichment is working that's why the lean condition at start.
You have worked on so many areas that tracking down the culprit can be a real challenge.
Hang in there.

[M5BB]

Ah yes. This was impressive. Quite interesting what your results say about the potential of these engines and how to bring it out. I agree with the discussion. It's all in the compression. Of course like Paul described, you've got to have the right cam timing to get it right. For us old enough to remember, that was what really killed the engines in the mid to late 70's.

BTW, you identified who helped you with the dyno tuning, but who did your head work. I assume that they cleaned up the transition in the bowl area, but while they were in there, why didn't you also go with the larger valves of the B36? Or am I mistaken and the B35 & B36 used the same diameter?

Thanks
Kerry

Sorry Kerry I forgot to answer your questions.
My machine shop guy is Jeff Hanken at Not on Main Street Garage in sugar Hill GA.
Jeff used to be a machinist at Sunbelt Racing and built a lot of S14 race engines.
The head work we did was mostly on the exhaust side and to also match to the header. Nothing on the intakes.
As far as I know the B36 has the same size valves.
The money drain had to stop somewhere.
Remember my goal was a modern version of the euro M88.

[mooseheadm5]

Don't forget to make sure that the car is actually setting the idle switch when you let off the throttle. Check your TPS adjustment and make sure you have the correct amount of free play in the throttle cable.
That idle AFR is super lean. Are there any settings to correct for startup enrichment?
You will also want to make sure that you are getting the correct fuel pressure (sticking FPR) and that none of your injectors are sticking, as either of those can cause a lean condition that suddenly corrects itself.

[M5BB]

Don't forget to make sure that the car is actually setting the idle switch when you let off the throttle. Check your TPS adjustment and make sure you have the correct amount of free play in the throttle cable.
That idle AFR is super lean. Are there any settings to correct for startup enrichment?
You will also want to make sure that you are getting the correct fuel pressure (sticking FPR) and that none of your injectors are sticking, as either of those can cause a lean condition that suddenly corrects itself.

Paul, good point about the TPS. In fact I would check that first.

[48230M5]

Unplugging it defaults to normal operation without baro sensor influence. I commonly unplug them to see if they are causing issues and usually run my cars without them

Thanks, I'll try unplugging it.

Are you getting fast idle?
I know you checked the water temp sensor but you need to check the wiring also to make sure the signal is getting to the ECU.
Doesn't sound like the idle enrichment is working that's why the lean condition at start.

Idle is low at first (700) raises to a little high(1500) then drops to normal after warmed up (850)
Water temp sensor is new, runs super rich when unplugged and normal when warm and plugged in. But I will check wires.
And I agree about idle enrichment.

Don't forget to make sure that the car is actually setting the idle switch when you let off the throttle. Check your TPS adjustment and make sure you have the correct amount of free play in the throttle cable.
That idle AFR is super lean. Are there any settings to correct for startup enrichment?
You will also want to make sure that you are getting the correct fuel pressure (sticking FPR) and that none of your injectors are sticking, as either of those can cause a lean condition that suddenly corrects itself.

Idle switch is brand new and correctly adjusted with a voltmeter. Fuel pressure is exactly at specs and FPR is new. I am suspicious of the injectors and I am going to send them out to be flowed and matched by Cruzin Performance.

I am really hoping the injectors are the issue. It would make a lot of sense by how it quickly starts to run richer a minute into running.

Thanks again for all the help!!

[48230M5]

Update: injectors cleaned and flow tested, no issues found. Car may run a touch stronger and smoother at NOT. But, cold start still completely sucks!

Is the barometric pressure sensor the thing in the bottom of the dash? I unhooked that too. No difference.

Back to the drawing board...

[mooseheadm5]

The baro sensor is on the inside of the passenger fender in front of the washer tank. It is a black box ~1x2x3/4 with a 3 wire plug going to it.

You probably unhooked your interior temp sensor.

[48230M5]

The baro sensor is on the inside of the passenger fender in front of the washer tank. It is a black box ~1x2x3/4 with a 3 wire plug going to it.

You probably unhooked your interior temp sensor.

Yep. Thanks. I always thought that the thing in the dash was for the climate control. But for some reason I thought I read somewhere that it was a sensor for engine management.

I'll try unhooking the proper sensor today.

[48230M5]

Update:

I unhooked the barometric pressure sensor and it started a bit better! Not perfect, but I would say a bit better.

Will this slightly richen the mixture across the whole map?

[mooseheadm5]

It should return things to the base settings.

[fewofm]

Just thought I'd add to this thread. I've been adding some slight timing and fuel to maps on my S38 with a larger intake cam (B36) and overall seems to be running much better. Now, need to decide if I purchase a wideband 02 sensor and try to tune further, go to local tuning/dyno shop which is very well known in the the mustang drag circuit or bring it up to Mario for a few days.

Anyway, Gary, thanks for all of your help.