Know a guy locally that is selling one. The car is cosmetically restored polaris silver with original black interior (near perfect). Supposedly rebuilt motor. Transmission pilot bearings (at least I think that is what makes the noise) are shot. Is a newer 265 5spd an easy swap? Currently has a 4spd. Brakes are scarey and car needs suspension rebuild, plus new tires. And the carbs need some adjusting as well as the timing... the engine ran like a dog. All the parts needed for a triple Weber conversion sits in the trunk. The car has a sunroof and power front & rear windows. Would make for a really clean winter driver (remember I'm in Florida!) since it has no A/C.
The guy is asking $6000 so it seems a pretty good find? Of course we just got a brief inspection, so the car needs to be put on a lift and checked for rust (or poorly repaired rust for that matter). But all the visible panels were solid.
I guess the real question is whether I'd be stupid for NOT buying it! Always loved the looks of the CS... probably one of the top classic coupes from BMW that is also modern enough to enjoy daily.
[Edit by Justin_FL on [TIME]1107528336[/TIME]]
Anyone know the CS Coupes well? Q's about a Euro '74 3.0CS..
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Mark 88/M5 Houston
- Posts: 8548
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006
- Location: Far North Houston
Truely lovely cars, but very prone to RUST. Check front and rear shock towers, lower side rails and inside the fenders. Probably a whole lot of info available on the big coupe groupe website (http://home.normgrills.net/bcg/)
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Tim in N FL
- Posts: 7392
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006
- Location: North Central Florida, USA
- Contact:
Justin,
I used to own a Bavaria 3.0S (e3) and the e9 guys frequent the Senior Six Registry listservbecause the drivetrains are essentially the same...sorta like the e28 and e24.
Both before and/or after purchasing the coupe, I would strongly suggest you make contact with the Coupe community before you purchase this car.
Start by visiting the SSR website and perhaps signing up for their crazy listserv. I will warn you....them e3 guyz is CRAZY. It comes with the territory, eh? Some would say you have to be crazy to own an e3 but I think that is rediculous...they're wonderful cars!
There are some serious coupe folks in ATL and in FL...you just need a consult with them. My guess is that this car may be known in the Coupe community....
Post photos or email them to me @ my work address
Sounds like a nice opportunity....the mechanicals are easier and cheaper to restore than the good cosmetics....if the rust (oh and there will be some somewhere) has been addressed with the cosmetic resto...then you may have yourself a nice find!
Keep us posted!!!
I used to own a Bavaria 3.0S (e3) and the e9 guys frequent the Senior Six Registry listservbecause the drivetrains are essentially the same...sorta like the e28 and e24.
Both before and/or after purchasing the coupe, I would strongly suggest you make contact with the Coupe community before you purchase this car.
Start by visiting the SSR website and perhaps signing up for their crazy listserv. I will warn you....them e3 guyz is CRAZY. It comes with the territory, eh? Some would say you have to be crazy to own an e3 but I think that is rediculous...they're wonderful cars!
There are some serious coupe folks in ATL and in FL...you just need a consult with them. My guess is that this car may be known in the Coupe community....
Post photos or email them to me @ my work address
Sounds like a nice opportunity....the mechanicals are easier and cheaper to restore than the good cosmetics....if the rust (oh and there will be some somewhere) has been addressed with the cosmetic resto...then you may have yourself a nice find!
Keep us posted!!!
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Velocewest
- Posts: 1558
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006
- Location: UK
OK, not trying to be disagreeable with Tim, but as a current coupe owner, former Bav owner and current SSR member, the LAST place you want to go for coupe info is the SSR. They will eviscerate you for fun. It's coupe hater central. There are two CS owners on the SSR, Marty Roach and me, and we get flipped shit every time people remember we have coupes. Also, the BCG is for 6 series cars, not e9 coupes. A 6 series is either an e12 or an e28 in drag, no real commonality with the e9.
The 4 speed 262 (and 5 speed 265 for that matter) is noisy at idle due to standard bearing and shim tolerances. You notice it more in an older car because of less sound deadening. So, the transmission may be fine, and if it is filled with RedLine MTL it will sound like hell at idle. Swapping to a 265 is pretty easy, you will need to get an automatic trans driveshaft or have the 4 speed shaft shortened, and you'll need the trans mount cross member and shifter platform from a late model e12.
All the suspension hard parts and rubber are available and reasonable in price. It's an M30, so engine parts are no worry.
There are no rust free e9's that are not in museums. The cars were hand assembled at Karmann like a big welded jigsaw puzzle, and nothing was rust-proofed. Remember, almost NOTHING on a coupe shell is held by nuts or bolts -- it's all welded, so you don't just buy a fender and bolt it on and solve your problems. The worst problem is the cowl and front fender area. First check -- drop the driver side glove box and check the firewall around the fusebox -- poke it with a screwdriver. If you find rust, assume everything from there forward is rusty also. Also check the bottom of the wiper motor well above the pedals. There is tar paper sound deadening on the outside that traps water and rusts through the well. Second check -- remove a front wheel, and reach up into the back of the fender towards the cowl and firewall. You'll find a box structure that you can feel around and stick your hand inside. It will probably be full of 30 years of road grit and sand, and under that, rust.
Third check -- remove the outer cosmetic rockers (they screw on) and check the condition of the structural rockers. Many "restored" coupes have rusty rockers because people assume that if the visible outer rocker clean then there is no rust.
Last check -- pull up the front carpet and check the condition of the floor by the gas pedal and by the rocker. Poke around under the tar stuff, the rust hides. The floors in almost every coupe are rusty, but a guy named Mike Pelly makes excellent replacement floors for $150 a side, front and back ($600 for all 4).
Brakes are excellent 4 pot Ate's front and 2 pot rear. Easy rebuild, or pretty cheap to replace from auto parts chains. I think a '74 woiuld have vented front so basically identical to the e12. Master cylinder is NLA, you can replace it with an e12 unit.
A '74 will have the worst of the emissions controls. Although I find the Zeniths on my '70 to be excellent, if I had a '74 I'd toss them, strip all the EGR crap and bolt on a pair of Weber 32/36's. Triple 40 DCOE's look cool but are a PITA to get tuned and you'll have to swap to a mechanical advance distributor.
As a big-bumper car, if it has rust it's worth maybe $3500. It would still make a good winter car, just get the brake and carb issues sorted and drive it until the rust wins.
~0 DOH! (@) Just noticed you said Euro -- so no big bumpers, but even more likelyhood of rust issues. Also probably no EGR crap, so I'd advise rebuilding the Zenith carbs, be sure to check the bases for flatness and true them with a file if needed to avoid vacuum leaks.
[Edit by Velocewest on [TIME]1107545536[/TIME]]
The 4 speed 262 (and 5 speed 265 for that matter) is noisy at idle due to standard bearing and shim tolerances. You notice it more in an older car because of less sound deadening. So, the transmission may be fine, and if it is filled with RedLine MTL it will sound like hell at idle. Swapping to a 265 is pretty easy, you will need to get an automatic trans driveshaft or have the 4 speed shaft shortened, and you'll need the trans mount cross member and shifter platform from a late model e12.
All the suspension hard parts and rubber are available and reasonable in price. It's an M30, so engine parts are no worry.
There are no rust free e9's that are not in museums. The cars were hand assembled at Karmann like a big welded jigsaw puzzle, and nothing was rust-proofed. Remember, almost NOTHING on a coupe shell is held by nuts or bolts -- it's all welded, so you don't just buy a fender and bolt it on and solve your problems. The worst problem is the cowl and front fender area. First check -- drop the driver side glove box and check the firewall around the fusebox -- poke it with a screwdriver. If you find rust, assume everything from there forward is rusty also. Also check the bottom of the wiper motor well above the pedals. There is tar paper sound deadening on the outside that traps water and rusts through the well. Second check -- remove a front wheel, and reach up into the back of the fender towards the cowl and firewall. You'll find a box structure that you can feel around and stick your hand inside. It will probably be full of 30 years of road grit and sand, and under that, rust.
Third check -- remove the outer cosmetic rockers (they screw on) and check the condition of the structural rockers. Many "restored" coupes have rusty rockers because people assume that if the visible outer rocker clean then there is no rust.
Last check -- pull up the front carpet and check the condition of the floor by the gas pedal and by the rocker. Poke around under the tar stuff, the rust hides. The floors in almost every coupe are rusty, but a guy named Mike Pelly makes excellent replacement floors for $150 a side, front and back ($600 for all 4).
Brakes are excellent 4 pot Ate's front and 2 pot rear. Easy rebuild, or pretty cheap to replace from auto parts chains. I think a '74 woiuld have vented front so basically identical to the e12. Master cylinder is NLA, you can replace it with an e12 unit.
A '74 will have the worst of the emissions controls. Although I find the Zeniths on my '70 to be excellent, if I had a '74 I'd toss them, strip all the EGR crap and bolt on a pair of Weber 32/36's. Triple 40 DCOE's look cool but are a PITA to get tuned and you'll have to swap to a mechanical advance distributor.
As a big-bumper car, if it has rust it's worth maybe $3500. It would still make a good winter car, just get the brake and carb issues sorted and drive it until the rust wins.
~0 DOH! (@) Just noticed you said Euro -- so no big bumpers, but even more likelyhood of rust issues. Also probably no EGR crap, so I'd advise rebuilding the Zenith carbs, be sure to check the bases for flatness and true them with a file if needed to avoid vacuum leaks.
[Edit by Velocewest on [TIME]1107545536[/TIME]]
Rust, rust and rust! I had one that eventually got parted due to terminal cancer.
Thing is, by the time you can see it on the outside, assume that the inner compartments and crevices are already rusted out.
All those little enclosed spaces harbor moisture and rust. I seriously wouldnt buy another one without complete photos of a total restoration. It is really that bad,
Also, the E3 guys hate the coupes because E3's so commonly become sacirficial parts cars for the far more valuable E9's. The E3 is probably a better car, all around, just not so pretty.
Thing is, by the time you can see it on the outside, assume that the inner compartments and crevices are already rusted out.
All those little enclosed spaces harbor moisture and rust. I seriously wouldnt buy another one without complete photos of a total restoration. It is really that bad,
Also, the E3 guys hate the coupes because E3's so commonly become sacirficial parts cars for the far more valuable E9's. The E3 is probably a better car, all around, just not so pretty.
Justin --
For reference, and maybe another one to look at: Here's a '74 Euro CS that was just listed on the Peachtree Chapter classifieds today:
http://www.peachtreebmwcca.org/ptClassA ... 5141100013
For reference, and maybe another one to look at: Here's a '74 Euro CS that was just listed on the Peachtree Chapter classifieds today:
http://www.peachtreebmwcca.org/ptClassA ... 5141100013
[QUOTE="Justin_FL"]Know a guy locally that is selling one. The car is cosmetically restored polaris silver with original black interior (near perfect). Supposedly rebuilt motor. Transmission pilot bearings (at least I think that is what makes the noise) are shot. Is a newer 265 5spd an easy swap? Currently has a 4spd. Brakes are scarey and car needs suspension rebuild, plus new tires. And the carbs need some adjusting as well as the timing... the engine ran like a dog. All the parts needed for a triple Weber conversion sits in the trunk. The car has a sunroof and power front & rear windows. Would make for a really clean winter driver (remember I'm in Florida!) since it has no A/C.
The guy is asking $6000 so it seems a pretty good find? Of course we just got a brief inspection, so the car needs to be put on a lift and checked for rust (or poorly repaired rust for that matter). But all the visible panels were solid.
I guess the real question is whether I'd be stupid for NOT buying it! Always loved the looks of the CS... probably one of the top classic coupes from BMW that is also modern enough to enjoy daily.
[Edit by Justin_FL on [TIME]1107528336[/TIME]][/QUOTE]
Six K is probably a good deal, provided the rust issues mentioned by several others are seen to. I'd go with the rebuilt carbs if you want authenticity, if that's not a concern, I'd advise looking at the MegaSquirt fuel injection system, it'll produce more HP than ANY carb, and one set up will remain in tune much longer than ANY carb; and it'll have all the cold starting benefits too.
Here's my coupe:
It's a D-Jetronic injected CSi model, '72 baujahr., in Baikal metallic and Navy blue leather. It'll get MegaSquirted in about a year or so, right after I finish the e28 project.
The guy is asking $6000 so it seems a pretty good find? Of course we just got a brief inspection, so the car needs to be put on a lift and checked for rust (or poorly repaired rust for that matter). But all the visible panels were solid.
I guess the real question is whether I'd be stupid for NOT buying it! Always loved the looks of the CS... probably one of the top classic coupes from BMW that is also modern enough to enjoy daily.
[Edit by Justin_FL on [TIME]1107528336[/TIME]][/QUOTE]
Six K is probably a good deal, provided the rust issues mentioned by several others are seen to. I'd go with the rebuilt carbs if you want authenticity, if that's not a concern, I'd advise looking at the MegaSquirt fuel injection system, it'll produce more HP than ANY carb, and one set up will remain in tune much longer than ANY carb; and it'll have all the cold starting benefits too.
Here's my coupe:
It's a D-Jetronic injected CSi model, '72 baujahr., in Baikal metallic and Navy blue leather. It'll get MegaSquirted in about a year or so, right after I finish the e28 project.
I have set some Bavarias up with the three side draft Webers and they are great! Drove from Colorado to Ca.to Alaska and back one summer with no problems. When set up well the Webers will hold a tune perfectly for years. They started well at -30 and would hit 100 mph up any pass in Co. Nothing jumps like six accelerator pumps in short manifolds.
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Tim in N FL
- Posts: 7392
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006
- Location: North Central Florida, USA
- Contact:
Tony,
No worries...you are dead on target re: the SSR. They'll shoot down almost anyone for fun. I continue to read the list but mostly for entertainment. Daryl N also reads and posts as he had a Bavaria as well until recently. I'll probably buy another Bav someday. I consider them the real "First Five" in the US...not the e12 (sorry First Fives guys). Thanks jumpin' in since you're a coupe owner with some solid advice for Justin. I wuz just trying to be helpful...not trying to set you up, Justin Glad to know there are some e3 and e9 enthusiasts on mye28 as well....not a surprise, really. Keep us posted Justin....
Best,
Tim
No worries...you are dead on target re: the SSR. They'll shoot down almost anyone for fun. I continue to read the list but mostly for entertainment. Daryl N also reads and posts as he had a Bavaria as well until recently. I'll probably buy another Bav someday. I consider them the real "First Five" in the US...not the e12 (sorry First Fives guys). Thanks jumpin' in since you're a coupe owner with some solid advice for Justin. I wuz just trying to be helpful...not trying to set you up, Justin
Glad to know there are some e3 and e9 enthusiasts on mye28 as well....not a surprise, really. Keep us posted Justin....Best,
Tim
Guys, thanks for all the info. I sorta figured in checking for rust on these things I would need to be very thorough after I saw the Karmann plaque in the door jam. WIth my Dad having owned many older German cars I know Karmann and rust go hand in hand! So I'll make to be especially sure of the areas you mentioned...
At least the car is cosmetically complete with a nearly perfect interior. I''ll check out some of the online sources to find info about the cars, if they are anything like our group it should be very useful.
At least the car is cosmetically complete with a nearly perfect interior. I''ll check out some of the online sources to find info about the cars, if they are anything like our group it should be very useful.
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stuartinmn
- Posts: 9752
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006
- Location: Minneapolis
[QUOTE="John"]I have set some Bavarias up with the three side draft Webers and they are great! Drove from Colorado to Ca.to Alaska and back one summer with no problems. When set up well the Webers will hold a tune perfectly for years. They started well at -30 and would hit 100 mph up any pass in Co. Nothing jumps like six accelerator pumps in short manifolds.[/QUOTE]
The guy I bought my M535 from also owned a Bavaria with triple sidedraft Webers. He said it took a while to get them set up right, but once that was done it ran great.
The guy I bought my M535 from also owned a Bavaria with triple sidedraft Webers. He said it took a while to get them set up right, but once that was done it ran great.
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Velocewest
- Posts: 1558
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006
- Location: UK
[QUOTE="Tim in N FL"] I'll probably buy another Bav someday. I consider them the real "First Five" in the US...not the e12 (sorry First Fives guys). [/QUOTE]
Actually, the e12 is truly the first five series, it was not developed from the e3, although it did share some suspension components. The e3 is the forefather of the 7 series. The 5 was the follow up to the Neue Klasse 4-doors that preceded the '02 cars. The first e12's had M10 4 bangers, the M30 wasn't added until BMW began exporting the car to the US.
Actually, the e12 is truly the first five series, it was not developed from the e3, although it did share some suspension components. The e3 is the forefather of the 7 series. The 5 was the follow up to the Neue Klasse 4-doors that preceded the '02 cars. The first e12's had M10 4 bangers, the M30 wasn't added until BMW began exporting the car to the US.
[QUOTE="John"]I have set some Bavarias up with the three side draft Webers and they are great! Drove from Colorado to Ca.to Alaska and back one summer with no problems. When set up well the Webers will hold a tune perfectly for years. They started well at -30 and would hit 100 mph up any pass in Co. Nothing jumps like six accelerator pumps in short manifolds.[/QUOTE]
While I have no doubt as to the veracity of your information, when you compare the cost, reliability, and ease of maintenance down the road, electronically control fuel injection wins hands down; there are no carbs that can produce the power in combination with efficiency that EFI can produce; it would defy the laws of physics. There's simply no way a fuel/air mixture can be dealt with as well as air alone.
Further, the UltraMegaSquirt system is just around the corner; that system will allow individual cylinder mixture and ignition control; carbs can't even supply the same mixture to each cylinder no matter what you do, even with one barrel per cylinder and individual runners.
Carbs are interesting; as museum pieces, the best place for them is in a glass case. :p
REFERENCE: http://www.msefi.com/
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
While I have no doubt as to the veracity of your information, when you compare the cost, reliability, and ease of maintenance down the road, electronically control fuel injection wins hands down; there are no carbs that can produce the power in combination with efficiency that EFI can produce; it would defy the laws of physics. There's simply no way a fuel/air mixture can be dealt with as well as air alone.
Further, the UltraMegaSquirt system is just around the corner; that system will allow individual cylinder mixture and ignition control; carbs can't even supply the same mixture to each cylinder no matter what you do, even with one barrel per cylinder and individual runners.
Carbs are interesting; as museum pieces, the best place for them is in a glass case. :p
REFERENCE: http://www.msefi.com/
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
[QUOTE="William"]http://www.e9coupe.com
that's where they all hang out - a very supportive group of people...[/QUOTE]
mighty shiney hood ya got there William. looks great!!
that's where they all hang out - a very supportive group of people...[/QUOTE]
mighty shiney hood ya got there William. looks great!!
Justin --
And one more for you to view -- a '73. No need to do anything to this one!!!
http://www.peachtreebmwcca.org/ptClassA ... 3189100020
( Sorry to not link these . . . "cutecast" code can't handle ASP very well! Copy and paste to view. )
- Layton
[QUOTE="Justin_FL"].....
The guy is asking $6000 so it seems a pretty good find? Of course we just got a brief inspection, so the car needs to be put on a lift and checked for rust (or poorly repaired rust for that matter). But all the visible panels were solid.
I guess the real question is whether I'd be stupid for NOT buying it! Always loved the looks of the CS... probably one of the top classic coupes from BMW that is also modern enough to enjoy daily.
[Edit by Justin_FL on [TIME]1107528336[/TIME]][/QUOTE]
And one more for you to view -- a '73. No need to do anything to this one!!!
http://www.peachtreebmwcca.org/ptClassA ... 3189100020
( Sorry to not link these . . . "cutecast" code can't handle ASP very well! Copy and paste to view. )
- Layton
[QUOTE="Justin_FL"].....
The guy is asking $6000 so it seems a pretty good find? Of course we just got a brief inspection, so the car needs to be put on a lift and checked for rust (or poorly repaired rust for that matter). But all the visible panels were solid.
I guess the real question is whether I'd be stupid for NOT buying it! Always loved the looks of the CS... probably one of the top classic coupes from BMW that is also modern enough to enjoy daily.
[Edit by Justin_FL on [TIME]1107528336[/TIME]][/QUOTE]