Anyone know about 928's?

[bsacks810860]

If everthing goes right good chance im going to buy a porsche. Was looking to buy a 944 but the more i look and read about 928's the more i want one. Had a 911 before and there just too uncomfortable for me but i really like the 928. They hardly cost anymore than a 944 right now. Anyone have one before?

[JoshInAtlanta]

Paging Dr. Tim...

[Shabba]

928's are wonderful cars...fast, true GT's, beautiful. If you are good with DIY car work, a 928 can be a fantastic car. However, if you have never owned a P-car before, I would HIGHLY recommend a 924s or a 944 as your first.

EDIT: I see you owned a 911...good start

[w0014170]

Sweet GT. The only car I have driven in excess of 150mph where a "whisper quite" conversation can be held in the cockpit. Stable at any speed without surprises.

That said, exceptionally pricey to maintain by schedule, expensive to insure if you are young & a PIA as a DD.
The 5 & 6sp models are serious performers when dealing with the GT, S4 & GTS the autos are smooth as the MB 126 chassis trans can provide. A/C is problematic, Sunroof is useless & placement of the window switches is absurd requiring replacement often for the ham handed. The auto locks have a mind of their own and the keys come from Germany.

I love the car mostly based on the "haters" that only drove air cooled beaters while sporting any piece of apparel with Porsche logo pasted to it. These are great cars to drive and are very forgiving, but they are not in the same class as the 944, do not make the mistake of comparison. Other than the name, they are different animals.

[Tim in N FL]

Paging Dr. Tim...

Thanks Josh but I'm hardly an expert on the 928. I did own a nicely kept '89 928s4 for about two years, however. I probably spent about $1000 in parts and labor on the car during that time. Just before I bought it, the PO had poured almost $10k into the car. Overall, I don't have much to add to what others have already said, all of which is on target. I miss S4...what a beast and it was built like a Panzer tank. Build quality for the entire 928 line seemed to be very high.

The only thing I seriously question with 928 design was the use of a damned toothed rubber cam belt (and the associated water pump set-up) rather than a TIMING CHAIN! WTH were Porsche engineers thinking, anyway? Every time I would fire up my '89 928s4, I used to experience near panic levels of anxiety, and it was an very well-maintained example. Failures can happen to any 928 without warning even if the factory maintenance specifications have been followed. Do not trust a technician to get this right for you...learn to do it yourself and to check the tension regularly on that cam belt. Consider buying the real Porsche $tool$ (roughly $400-500, iirc) rather than the inexpensive and inaccurate DIYer-produced variety.

If you're interested in 928s, I would strongly urge you to hang out on the 928 group at Rennlist::

http://forums.rennlist.com/

The 928 Forum:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/f ... forumid=69

John Pirtle's excellent S4 site:
http://members.rennlist.com/pirtle/

FAQ for new 928 owners:
http://members.rennlist.com/v1uhoh/fornew9.htm

The guys and gals (yes, women) on the Rennlist 928 forum are quality folks from all walks of life. Make sure you attend one or more of the big "Shark" meets held annually on each coast. The last one I participated in was Sharks In The Mountains 2004. Outstanding and very informative since there are so many hardcore DIYers in that gruppe. NOTHING is easy to do yourself on these cars and you will absolutely go broke paying someone else to do the work. The same applies to all front-engine, water-cooled Porsches (and, dare I say, Porsche's in general).

I would seriously recommend you purchase a 1987 or later model with either automatic or manual transmission with a complete service history (what the British call FSH in their classified listings). The same advice was just proffered in Excellence magazine in their late '08 928 Market Update. You cannot lose either way with the transmissions. They're both excellent.

Meanwhile, if you can find a high-quality "renegaded" (Chevy LS1 swap) 928, it will help ease your mind with respect to the costs associated with maintaining the driveline. A company in Las Vegas by the name of Renegade Hybrids produces one of the most respected kits for the 928. http://www.renegadehybrids.com/

Meanwhile, if that rubber cam belt should snap (or jump a cog or two), you're likely to encounter damage to substantial number of the 32 valves in the two heads @ ~$100 each plus whatever piston damage, sourcing of a head(s), machine shop labor, and someone with enough skill to tackle such a job might run you. A $7-10k repair tab is not unusual when this tragedy occurs. FYI...there are no more crate motors left, as one might imagine, since the last 928GTS was produced ~13 years ago.

There are three main parts houses supporting the 928 community:

928 Specialists (in Spruce Pine, NC; my personal favorite)
Devek (in CA)
928 International (also in CA)

See here for more resources:
http://norcal928.org/resources.htm

[bobaab]

One of my friends had one...well actually, the car is STILL at our apartment but we have no idea where he is. His dad is a politician of another country and he got into some trouble I guess...we haven't heard from him since he went back to his country

But he had problems left and right with the car. He did not have much fun with it the year he owned it. Well I guess he still owns it now, but it's been sitting in the same spot for longer than he has owned it I think...

[rlomba8204]

I have never owned a 928, but I know a few people who have, and while they are certainly tank-like cars, the folks I know have commented that they cost a fortune to maintain, even accounting for their initial purchase cost and the fact that they are a Porsche. Some of these same people have owned 80s 911s and were not as put-off by maintenance and repairs.

And, as someone else commented, they are GTs, not hard core sports cars. So, although I've only driven a 928 twice, my thought is that why put up with those maintenance costs for a GT, when there are other, more reliable, German GTs (to different degrees) available? So, my .02, fwiw, is if you want a GT, consider an 8 series with the v-8. I know the 8 series has a reputation for being problematic -- and this is certainly at least somewhat deserved, but an 8 series with the v-8 is probably going to be just as capable a GT as the 928 and it will be more reliable to run everyday (these things are relative, however, and neither is for the faint of wallet.)

Another thought: If you want something less sporty, but still sporty, and have a car you actualy rely upon everyday, that is extremely well built and reliable crusier (provided it has, as Tim called it, a "DSH"), with no caveats about Nikasil blocks, 5hp30 ZF transmissions, etc.(I am assuming you know BMW drivetrains well enough to know to what I am referring), look at a late 80s early 90s C126 560SEC. Absolute tank like build quality, big v-8s, happy to cruise all day long north of 100mph, and it handles surprisingly well for a car that big. The electrical system is reliable, the styling is timeless, and the mechanicals are extremely robust. It's a fuel pig, but the others aren't exactly Civics either. My opinion is that a well maintained C126 / W126 will put either of the other cars to shame, reliability-wise, and build-quality-wise. But then again, I think, and this is my view, it is hard to say a car has good build quality if it is a mechanical disaster waiting to happen.

Please note this discussion is relative, in the sense that none of these cars are cheap to run, or likely to be Honda-like in terms of their respective maintenance needs. The difference is, that of the 3, the Mercedes, while being the least sporty, but not "unsporty", will be by far the most reliable and solid of the group.

Just throwing out some alternatives. Hth.

[johnnye23]

Barry I found this link http://www.wolfeden.org/928S4/buying.php .Timing belt every 45k recomended at $1500.00. Ouch , of course thats having the belt done by someone.Good luck.

[BMWCCA2]

Even two decades ago 928's were "cheap" used cars and tempting for many as an entry-level Porsche. My advice (even back then when everything was cheaper) to those contemplating what could have been a $10,000 used-car purchase was to set aside $1,000 a month for normal maintenance and replacement parts. That's probably low today if one intends to make it a daily driver. Even knowing how Porsche took normal VW parts and inflated their retail price when sold as 924/944 OE pieces, the cost of normal parts unique to the 928 was simply staggering. Great car to drive. Not a great one to own very-used unless you're capable of taking care of it yourself, or just have deep pockets. Luckily few ever drove their Porsches as daily drivers, which is what separates them from BMW owners. During the twenty-years I sold Porsches at a franchise store, they were pretty much hobby cars and had the worst rate of repeat ownership in the industry based pretty much on the fact that once people satisfied their desire for a Porsche they either kept that one car forever or moved on to something else. Similar to BMW, they've become more of an appliance or jewelry today, so those stats most likely are no longer applicable. Still roughly relevant though.

One thing that always struck me during my two-decades of earning a living with Porsche, Audi, and BMW, was that everything you touched on a Porsche turned to crap very quickly. The tactile feeling one gets in a BMW of it being solidly built goes away in a Porsche nearly as quickly as the shocks and suspension bushings. Yeah, even more quickly there than an E28, too! A five-year-old Porsche felt like an old car. 911's weren't as bad, but the water-cooled cars certainly were. At the same point, a used BMW still felt like new. Maybe that has changed, too, but I lost all interest in finding out years ago.

[rlomba8204]

. . . At the same point, a used BMW still felt like new. Maybe that has changed, too, but I lost all interest in finding out years ago.

I'm asking this question seriously, and not to be a wise-ass: Is there any current production BMW you would consider owning down the road? For me at least, I find the universe growing smaller in this regard.

[bsacks810860]

I love the 8 series, but i want to get away from bmw's for awhile. I have 5 of them right now and feel it is time for a porsche. I have always liked the 560sec also, but really a little bigger than i want, and am looking for something a little more sportscar type. I never really liked the 928's in the past,but now they look pretty cool. Most likely i will end upwith a 944 unless a really great deal on a 928 comes up. It would not be my daily driver, just a weekend car. Im taking over the wifes 540 and she is going to start driving the 530it so i can park the 635 for a while. The last 2 years at tax time i have bought a car from Johnny but unless he gets a porsche real quick to sell me i will have to go elsewhere! Thanks for the info.

[Shabba]

Even two decades ago 928's were "cheap" used cars and tempting for many as an entry-level Porsche. My advice (even back then when everything was cheaper) to those contemplating what could have been a $10,000 used-car purchase was to set aside $1,000 a month for normal maintenance and replacement parts. That's probably low today if one intends to make it a daily driver. Even knowing how Porsche took normal VW parts and inflated their retail price when sold as 924/944 OE pieces, the cost of normal parts unique to the 928 was simply staggering. Great car to drive. Not a great one to own very-used unless you're capable of taking care of it yourself, or just have deep pockets. Luckily few ever drove their Porsches as daily drivers, which is what separates them from BMW owners. During the twenty-years I sold Porsches at a franchise store, they were pretty much hobby cars and had the worst rate of repeat ownership in the industry based pretty much on the fact that once people satisfied their desire for a Porsche they either kept that one car forever or moved on to something else. Similar to BMW, they've become more of an appliance or jewelry today, so those stats most likely are no longer applicable. Still roughly relevant though.

One thing that always struck me during my two-decades of earning a living with Porsche, Audi, and BMW, was that everything you touched on a Porsche turned to crap very quickly. The tactile feeling one gets in a BMW of it being solidly built goes away in a Porsche nearly as quickly as the shocks and suspension bushings. Yeah, even more quickly there than an E28, too! A five-year-old Porsche felt like an old car. 911's weren't as bad, but the water-cooled cars certainly were. At the same point, a used BMW still felt like new. Maybe that has changed, too, but I lost all interest in finding out years ago.

Wow...I guess this is entirely up to owner experience, but my '44 feels pretty damn nice, even with 160k miles on the clock. None of my p-cars have ever felt "old" like that. I'd say BMW and Porsche are most definitely on the same page as far as longevity goes, provided maintenance is done properly. Most of the p-car owners I have known are no different than the BMW owners. They love their cars, are fastidious about their care and rarely, if ever, drive anything else.

I'm very suprised by your experience. My father's '63 356B Cab felt solid every time I shut the door on it...even at 40 years old. Every 944 I have owned has felt the same way. Like a tank.

[BMWgiant]

This is embarrassing and I probably should keep it to my self... I love porsches but never really dove to far into them since I am too big to fit in one, so my knowledge of them doesn't go very far at all.. This thread is the first time that I realized the 924, 928, and 944 weren't actually the same car! They are all so similar in body style that every time I saw one, I just figured they were either earlier or later models of the 944.. I am really disappointed in myself for not knowing this sooner!

[BMWCCA2]

I'm very suprised by your experience. My father's '63 356B Cab felt solid every time I shut the door on it...even at 40 years old. Every 944 I have owned has felt the same way. Like a tank.

I wasn't really referring to the 356. It didn't take much to feel solid back then. But I'm equally surprised at your 944, mostly because their doors didn't close that solidly when they were new! Light and stalk switches felt like crap. All interior pieces and underhood stuff said "VW" on them. And remember, I started when the 924 was new, before the 944.

One day, back when the cars were new, a young stud from out of town who drove his 924/924Turbo/944 (can't remember anymore) into a ditch on a Saturday after drinking too much at a steeplechase event got towed into our dealership. Bent the lower-control arm. We didn't stock one and told him he'd be stuck until we could order one from Porsche and, since it was a Saturday . . .

He begged us to do something to fix it quickly and I told him I could check with the VW dealer to see if they had one for a Super Beetle in stock. He literally screamed that he wasn't going to have any VW parts on his car. I popped his hood and pointed out the various parts from radiator cap to hoses that had the VW logo on them. He calmed down and let me call to determine that they did have the VW part in stock just up the road. When we got it I showed him the only difference was something like the Porsche part had a hole in it for the sway-bar mount. We drilled the VW part, put it on his car, aligned it, and sent him on his way. He probably had it excised at the earliest possible opportunity.

I liked and appreciated 911s back then. No other Porsche got me even thinking about owning one. Still don't.

[BMWCCA2]

This thread is the first time that I realized the 924, 928, and 944

The 924 was a cheap originally designed for Audi/VW to be Audi's Scirroco. It was originally equipped with some 4-cylinder VW/Audi truck block with a new head. The 944 used a 4-cyl engine, more Porsche based—2.5L with Mitsubishi balance-shaft technology, and put the body on steroids with flares all over. The 928 was a unique vehicle sharing nothing with any other Porsche and came only with Porsche's first V8 engine using an Alusil block. It stayed a 928 with other add-ons until Porsche killed it. It was originally supposed to replace the 911 and was intended to be the German businessman's alternative to trains or even planes in commuting across Europe. Obviously the 911 is still being made and the 928 is not. Haven't you seen the movie "Risky Business"? Tom Cruise's "u-boat" was a 928. http://forneymuseum.org/Porsche928.htm

[w0014170]

This thread is the first time that I realized the 924, 928, and 944

The 924 was a cheap originally designed for Audi/VW to be Audi's Scirroco. It was originally equipped with some 4-cylinder VW/Audi truck block with a new head. The 944 used a 4-cyl engine, more Porsche based—2.5L with Mitsubishi balance-shaft technology, and put the body on steroids with flares all over. The 928 was a unique vehicle sharing nothing with any other Porsche and came only with Porsche's first V8 engine using an Alusil block. It stayed a 928 with other add-ons until Porsche killed it. It was originally supposed to replace the 911 and was intended to be the German businessman's alternative to trains or even planes in commuting across Europe. Obviously the 911 is still being made and the 928 is not. Haven't you seen the movie "Risky Business"? Tom Cruise's "u-boat" was a 928. http://forneymuseum.org/Porsche928.htm

6cyl 944? Yea I saw it too

[C.R. Krieger]

This thread is the first time that I realized the 924, 928, and 944

The 924 was a cheap originally designed for Audi/VW to be Audi's Scirroco. It was originally equipped with some 4-cylinder VW/Audi truck block with a new head. The 944 used a 4-cyl engine, more Porsche based—2.5L with Mitsubishi balance-shaft technology, and put the body on steroids with flares all over.

... and for the record, the 968 was a development off the 924/944.

[BMWgiant]

This is why I love this forum! I learn something new almost every day!!

[oldskool]

When I first drove a 944 on my favorite (track) road, I was amazed at how much it performed like my e30. Several test drives later and I decided to just keep the 325i.

[David B]

I had a 84 928euro I was told was an early S4. A mechanic from Germany tried to import it and I ended up with the car after it sat in storage for a few years. It was a great car fully adjustable suspension, big badass brakes, fat gunmetal wheels, straight exhaust, dual coils and distributors, and I was told by someone local that worked with him before he moved that the car was putting down over 350whp. All I can say is that it had 31 fuses and 17 relays just in the fuse box located behind a wood door under the glovebox. There are more throughout the car. The car was alot of fun but was an electrical challange. The website 928 specialist is very helpfull.

[Shabba]

I'm very surprised by your experience. My father's '63 356B Cab felt solid every time I shut the door on it...even at 40 years old. Every 944 I have owned has felt the same way. Like a tank.

I wasn't really referring to the 356. It didn't take much to feel solid back then. But I'm equally surprised at your 944, mostly because their doors didn't close that solidly when they were new! Light and stalk switches felt like crap. All interior pieces and underhood stuff said "VW" on them. And remember, I started when the 924 was new, before the 944.

One day, back when the cars were new, a young stud from out of town who drove his 924/924Turbo/944 (can't remember anymore) into a ditch on a Saturday after drinking too much at a steeplechase event got towed into our dealership. Bent the lower-control arm. We didn't stock one and told him he'd be stuck until we could order one from Porsche and, since it was a Saturday . . .

He begged us to do something to fix it quickly and I told him I could check with the VW dealer to see if they had one for a Super Beetle in stock. He literally screamed that he wasn't going to have any VW parts on his car. I popped his hood and pointed out the various parts from radiator cap to hoses that had the VW logo on them. He calmed down and let me call to determine that they did have the VW part in stock just up the road. When we got it I showed him the only difference was something like the Porsche part had a hole in it for the sway-bar mount. We drilled the VW part, put it on his car, aligned it, and sent him on his way. He probably had it excised at the earliest possible opportunity.

I liked and appreciated 911s back then. No other Porsche got me even thinking about owning one. Still don't.

Well, I was using the 356 as a comparison. It was a really solid car at 40+ years old and I expect the 944 will be very similiar.

I've owned a grand total of 3 944's over the years. My first, an '83, had a hard life before I got it and it still ran well and felt good. The doors sounded great when shutting them and the body was very tight. My current '88 was better taken care of and it shows in many ways. I'm not saying they are perfect, I'm just saying that in many years of Porsche ownership, I've never experienced anything other than quality from these little cars, VW derived they may be. The paint can look like crap (like our bimmers), the interior pieces can start to shed their outer layers (like our Bimmers) but overall, it hasn't happened to me to a point where I would say the cars were poor quality.

I envy your getting to work with the cars...holy crap, I would leave my comfy county job right now for a shot at working for Euroclassics here in Richmond.

[w0014170]

The 944 is a terrific automobile. The 83 was six to 10 months out if you wanted a Ruby Red and beige leather with staggered forged alloys.
When the 85.5 (86) model arrived witht the new dash layout, once again the list grew and again for Ruby Red/beige with the alloys, not the cookie cutters.
They are great road cars and other than the cam belt and coolant pump, every bit a rock solid car.
The Club Sports were awsome performance cars on the track and off.
I liked them and would own one now as a DD if there were reasonable mileage models available, there are not, oh well,memories are grand!

BTW as opposed to the 928 in any of its forms, the 560SEC should never be overlooked as rlomba8204 stated earlier. It is a very competent car and exceptionally powerful on the road. In fact I would rather have a 560SEC than a 928 simply for the available room and quality build. IMO.

[BMWCCA2]

The 944 is a terrific automobile. The 83 was six to 10 months out if you wanted a Ruby Red and beige leather with staggered forged alloys.

By far our most popular color (and you can see it still today in the used market) was the ubiquitous Porsche Guards Red, or (in German) Indischrot. Ruby was the burgundy metallic. We sold hardly any of those compared to the Guards Red, and could have probably stayed sold out two-years in advance on just Guards Red, white, and Black alone.