My own personal engine oil crusade

[RobertRO]

I've sent an email to Castrol UK, asking about the ZDDP levels in Castrol oils and their recommendation for the BMW M30 engine, and here's the reply I got:
(please take the message "as is")

"This has been quite a frequent topic in my inbox - first off I wouldn't be concerned about your BMW at all - modern oils are more than adequate to provide all the lubrication properties it needs, and would recommend one of our range of EDGE products for the best performance and protection, my first choice being EDGE Sport 0W-40 for your car,
although you can, in that age of vehicle use the Magnatec 10W-40 oil if you prefer.
The issue really is with old 1930 - 1950 vintage cars that have flat tappets which can be an issue long-term - the reduction of zinc to around 800ppm in some modern fuel efficient oils would be an issue if used in these engines, but to be honest most of the oils you'd use in an old cars such as basic mineral 20W-50 and 15W-40 still have around 900 - 1100 ppm of zinc anyway."

There are at least two issues I see here:
1. Why didn't he recommend the Castrol EDGE Sport 10W-60, instead of 0W-40, having in view that thicker oils are a better fit for older design engines.
2. Isn't the cam / rocker interaction in a M30 engine about the same thing as a cam / flat tappet interaction? Or perhaps even more demanding, since a flat tappet usually rotates while being lifted by the cam, but the M30 rockers don't.

[turbodan]

I've sent an email to Castrol UK, asking about the ZDDP levels in Castrol oils and their recommendation for the BMW M30 engine, and here's the reply I got:
(please take the message "as is")

"This has been quite a frequent topic in my inbox - first off I wouldn't be concerned about your BMW at all - modern oils are more than adequate to provide all the lubrication properties it needs, and would recommend one of our range of EDGE products for the best performance and protection, my first choice being EDGE Sport 0W-40 for your car,
although you can, in that age of vehicle use the Magnatec 10W-40 oil if you prefer.
The issue really is with old 1930 - 1950 vintage cars that have flat tappets which can be an issue long-term - the reduction of zinc to around 800ppm in some modern fuel efficient oils would be an issue if used in these engines, but to be honest most of the oils you'd use in an old cars such as basic mineral 20W-50 and 15W-40 still have around 900 - 1100 ppm of zinc anyway."

There are at least two issues I see here:
1. Why didn't he recommend the Castrol EDGE Sport 10W-60, instead of 0W-40, having in view that thicker oils are a better fit for older design engines.
2. Isn't the cam / rocker interaction in a M30 engine about the same thing as a cam / flat tappet interaction? Or perhaps even more demanding, since a flat tappet usually rotates while being lifted by the cam, but the M30 rockers don't.

0w40 is a rediculously low viscosity for our SOHC engines. See the owners manual. I wouldn't even run 10w40. Maybe this representative thought you wrote "M50" instead of "M30".

900-1100ppm is not enough. Thats a matter of fact. I dont know exactly how much ZDDP was in the Valvoline Synpower 20w50 that was in my motor during the year where it experienced what looked like 100k miles of wear in the valvetrain, but I want to bet it was between 900 and 1100ppm. It obviously isnt an issue of having some ZDDP versus having none at all. Theres no doubt that thier oil contains the stuff, but the question is how much. A certain amount is required to adequately protect our engines, and I believe its about 1400ppm. 900-1100 is what would be left in your oil if you run it too long on an oil change. That would be a severely depleted additive package, causing accelerated wear.

This sounds like a typical "we dont really give a shit about your needs" response.

[rlomba8204]

I've sent an email to Castrol UK, asking about the ZDDP levels in Castrol oils and their recommendation for the BMW M30 engine, and here's the reply I got:
(please take the message "as is")

"This has been quite a frequent topic in my inbox - first off I wouldn't be concerned about your BMW at all - modern oils are more than adequate to provide all the lubrication properties it needs, and would recommend one of our range of EDGE products for the best performance and protection, my first choice being EDGE Sport 0W-40 for your car,
although you can, in that age of vehicle use the Magnatec 10W-40 oil if you prefer.
The issue really is with old 1930 - 1950 vintage cars that have flat tappets which can be an issue long-term - the reduction of zinc to around 800ppm in some modern fuel efficient oils would be an issue if used in these engines, but to be honest most of the oils you'd use in an old cars such as basic mineral 20W-50 and 15W-40 still have around 900 - 1100 ppm of zinc anyway."

There are at least two issues I see here:
1. Why didn't he recommend the Castrol EDGE Sport 10W-60, instead of 0W-40, having in view that thicker oils are a better fit for older design engines.
2. Isn't the cam / rocker interaction in a M30 engine about the same thing as a cam / flat tappet interaction? Or perhaps even more demanding, since a flat tappet usually rotates while being lifted by the cam, but the M30 rockers don't.

0w40 is a rediculously low viscosity for our SOHC engines. See the owners manual. I wouldn't even run 10w40. Maybe this representative thought you wrote "M50" instead of "M30".

900-1100ppm is not enough. Thats a matter of fact. I dont know exactly how much ZDDP was in the Valvoline Synpower 20w50 that was in my motor during the year where it experienced what looked like 100k miles of wear in the valvetrain, but I want to bet it was between 900 and 1100ppm. It obviously isnt an issue of having some ZDDP versus having none at all. Theres no doubt that thier oil contains the stuff, but the question is how much. A certain amount is required to adequately protect our engines, and I believe its about 1400ppm. 900-1100 is what would be left in your oil if you run it too long on an oil change. That would be a severely depleted additive package, causing accelerated wear.

This sounds like a typical "we dont really give a shit about your needs" response.

Dan:
Two thoughts:

First off, be careful dismissing someone's view because it disagrees with your own -- like everything else, oil technology has improved and a modern high quality synthetic may certainly be more capable than what was available when BMW printed the owner's manual. Fwiw, my BMW indie, a BMW master tech, is not all that worried about what grade of oil he uses in his 92 735. He's used everything from 5w-30 to 10w-40 to 20w-50. While I am more towards your end of the spectrum on this issue, his belief is that for a car that is driven in a typical American fashion, i.e., not seeing much more than 80mph or 4,000 rpm, it is more important to keep the oil clean and full than to get to worried about the additives package or the grade, within reason. I am sure for the average person, the Castrol rep's guidance is fine.

Second, I would be careful about over-generalizing your experience. You run a turbocharged M20 with what sounds like a good amount of boost. My impression is that you also drive it fairly hard. That's fine, but you should recognize that for many people, the cars are not driven in that fashion, and so the absolute, most optimal additives package is not essential. Because of the heavy traffic where I live, my 535 is not likely to see over 3,000 rpm, and not much more than 70-75 mph on the highway. Not to say that this means I will run it a quart low with shitty, old, oil of the wrong grade and with a depleted additives package, but if I ran Mobil 1 10w-40, and kept it full (little less than 6.5 quarts to the top mark), the car will be fine. And it was fine when the previous owner used Mobil 1 5w-30 in the winter -- the car used more, but we pulled the valve cover and checked the cam before I bought the car, and did a compression test and the car came up absolutely fine.

So, at the end of the day, this is an important, useful discussion, but I wouldn't get too carried away. It is far more important for the average driver to keep the crankcase fill, and change the oil every 6 months or so, 1 year max (to keep the additive package decent) than to get hyper-worried about oil weight or viscosity, within reason of course.

[Shawn D.]

0w40 is a rediculously low viscosity for our SOHC engines. See the owners manual. I wouldn't even run 10w40.

So, I take it you wouldn't care for running Mobil1 5W-30 for over 225,000* miles like I did in my 535i?

*From 75K to 300K+, when I went to 20W-50 dino to reduce oil consumption.

[rlomba8204]

0w40 is a rediculously low viscosity for our SOHC engines. See the owners manual. I wouldn't even run 10w40.

So, I take it you wouldn't care for running Mobil1 5W-30 for over 225,000* miles like I did in my 535i?

*From 75K to 300K+, when I went to 20W-50 dino to reduce oil consumption.

Shawn-
Did you notice greater consumption with the 5w-30 throughout that time, before the 300k mile mark? That is what made me switch to a heavier winter grade. I noticed consumption when down to about half that when I used 10w-40 in the winter. I just switched to Mobil 1 15w-50 in anticipation of the warmer weather, as I liked the relatively high ZDDP content and the greater weight for our atrociously hot, humid summers. But at the end of the day, I suspect sticking with even 5w-30 would have been fine as long as I kept it full.

More generally, what was your thought process using the 5w-30?

TIA.

[turbodan]

Thats just abuse right there.

I just dont like the idea of filling your engine with something that will probably only protect your motor while puttering around. You could probably get away with running rediculous oil change intervals by the same logic.

I guess we'll have to disagree about using 0w or 5w oils. The only rationale I've ever heard for such watery thin oils is for a slight increase in gas mileage, which may or may not be completely imaginary.

My cam looked fine during the teardown, though even just a little wear on the lobes can be enough to get through the hardened shell, and then you're really screwed. The rocker arms showed the wear on the little pad that rides on the cam, particularly the part of it that rides on the nose of the cam under max lift. That seems to point to a lack of extreme pressure additives, if anything.

I do run the car hard, but only when its really warmed up. There shouldn't be much wear at all taking place in a warm engine with the right oil in there. Certainly nothing noticeable after only about a year and maybe 15k miles, regardless of driving habits or power output. All the valvetrain knows is RPM. Load on the cam lobe and rocker arm is pretty much the same each time a valve is opened, either at idle or at 7k rpm. So running high RPM just means slightly more wear for the same mileage. Even if I simulated 20 or 30k miles of RPM in ~15k, there still shouldn't be any noticeable wear. It was a street driven car, and as much as I would like to haul ass all the time, I only have that opportunity once in a while.

Running something like 5w30 or 0w40 is just asking for it, but of course thats just my opinion. You may drive around like an octogenarian, but even then you're going to be experiencing accelerated wear. It would become catastrophic as quickly as it will in an engine that gets run for fun, but it'll get you sooner or later.

[BRRV]

I've posted on this topic frequently in the past. I think it's important to note that their are TWO different formulations of 15W50 M1; the one to use would be the product with the greater amount of anti-wear additives, and not the Extended Performance version, which is a current-spec formulation. The non-EP formulation isn't 'new car' acceptable, in that it does not meet the most current API standards. The Mobil 1 website discusses this. Any oil labeled as 'energy conserving' should be suspect in terms of it's additives package.

I prefer to stay with a manufacturer, rather than switch brands between manufacturers for different weights. Because Mobil 1 altered their lower weight oils to meet the new API standards, I switched to Redline, and use 5W40 and 10W40 respectively, winter and summer. I queried Redline specifically about the problems related to anti-wear compounds and newer engine formulations, and their answer was straightforward: they have not altered their formulations to meet newer API standards and still use the same amount of anti-wear compnents in their additives package.

Note that I live in Colorado and my car isn't garaged, hence my need to play it safe with a 5W40 winter weight lubricant.

Motor oil manufacturers are famous for altering formulations, and I prefer to be safe rather than sorry with a manufacturer who specifically says it won't alter it's formulation, instead stating that they will build the best motor oil, period.

(I don't use Redline 15W50 because it isn't recommended for street engines that don't see at least 225 degrees of oil temp; they do specifically recommend 10W40 for my car. Based on the owners manual, I won't use a multigrade 30W product in an M30 engine.)

Lastly, I don't like petroluem based oils and will always use a synthetic. IMO, anyone who has spent more than 10 minutes evaluating petro-based lubricants versus any synthetic-based oil, even hydrocracked Group III oils, with the right additives package, can't find any evidence that a petroluem based oil offers any advantage beyond lower cost. In the long run, cost advantages are minimal, especially based on a 7,500 mile maximum drain interval with a filter change at at 4,000 miles.

[Shawn D.]

... running Mobil1 5W-30 for over 225,000* miles like I did in my 535i?

*From 75K to 300K+, when I went to 20W-50 dino to reduce oil consumption.

Did you notice greater consumption with the 5w-30 throughout that time, before the 300k mile mark?

More generally, what was your thought process using the 5w-30?

I was after less internal friction -- thus more efficiency and slightly more power. After all, race teams use lighter viscosities frequently, and they don't want their engine to degrade during long races. Even with my aggressive street driving, it's certainly not even close to the wear a race engine sees.

The consumption increased gradually, not becoming noticeable until about 250K, and at 300K it was burning a quart every 800 miles on the 5W-30. On dino 20W-50, it's burning a quart every 1100 miles.

Thats just abuse right there.

I just dont like the idea of filling your engine with something that will probably only protect your motor while puttering around. You could probably get away with running rediculous oil change intervals by the same logic.

I knew that would rile you up. Would you tell my 340K engine it wasn't protected well, please?

All the valvetrain knows is RPM. Load on the cam lobe and rocker arm is pretty much the same each time a valve is opened, either at idle or at 7k rpm. So running high RPM just means slightly more wear for the same mileage.

Wrong! The dynamic effects of valvetrain inertia are significant, even when the engine is an OHC.

Running something like 5w30 or 0w40 is just asking for it, but of course thats just my opinion. You may drive around like an octogenarian, but even then you're going to be experiencing accelerated wear. It would become catastrophic as quickly as it will in an engine that gets run for fun, but it'll get you sooner or later.

If, by "octogenarian," you mean hitting the redline a few times each time you drive it, autocrossing, and doing driver's schools, then I do drive like an octogenarian. At 340K, how long does the engine have before it becomes catastrophic? I went back to 20W-50 for the consumption issue, not any other.

I don't use Redline 15W50 because it isn't recommended for street engines that don't see at least 225 degrees of oil temp; they do specifically recommend 10W40 for my car. Based on the owners manual, I won't use a multigrade 30W product in an M30 engine.

The hottest I've ever seen my oil get was 220F, during the 5th run of an autocross where the OBC said the temps were 120F (close to the ground, where the oil pan is). I didn't adhere to the owner's manual, as the owner's manual wasn't updated to include the modern oils.

Now, I will say this: the valve tips on my engine do exhibit a good bit of concave wear (thus why I devised my cam-end adjustment procedure). Given the minuscule contact area that the crappy eccentric design has, I guess this is not surprising, but I do wonder if extra film strength from a higher-viscosity oil would have helped. In any case, I'm running lash caps when I redo the engine.

BTW, the oil pressure is still ~60 psi at idle when cold, ~15 psi at hot idle, and 20 psi/1000 rpm.

[turbodan]

Thats just abuse right there.

I just dont like the idea of filling your engine with something that will probably only protect your motor while puttering around. You could probably get away with running rediculous oil change intervals by the same logic.

I knew that would rile you up. Would you tell my 340K engine it wasn't protected well, please?

Feel free to take it apart and check it out.

You do a lot of highway driving dont you?

All the valvetrain knows is RPM. Load on the cam lobe and rocker arm is pretty much the same each time a valve is opened, either at idle or at 7k rpm. So running high RPM just means slightly more wear for the same mileage.

Wrong! The dynamic effects of valvetrain inertia are significant, even when the engine is an OHC.

Hence the wording "pretty much". I wouldnt consider them significant, which is to say that any inertial loads that may be present still wont have an effect on the amount of wear that takes place as the nose of the cam rubs across the rocker arm during peak lift. At that point, where I had observed wear taking place, wear is happening at the same rate each time the valbe opens, at idle or running up against wherever the rev limiter is set. The loads induced by high RPM in the rod bearings are significant, but not on the nose of the cam lobe.

Running something like 5w30 or 0w40 is just asking for it, but of course thats just my opinion. You may drive around like an octogenarian, but even then you're going to be experiencing accelerated wear. It would become catastrophic as quickly as it will in an engine that gets run for fun, but it'll get you sooner or later.

If, by "octogenarian," you mean hitting the redline a few times each time you drive it, autocrossing, and doing driver's schools, then I do drive like an octogenarian. At 340K, how long does the engine have before it becomes catastrophic? I went back to 20W-50 for the consumption issue, not any other.

I mean that you drive in a manner that wont spill your coffee or cause your sunglasses to slide across the dash. At least most of the time. Autocross is hard on tires, not your engine. I try to keep revs down so I have room to rev. I dont know anybody that runs around a course within 500 rpm of the revlimiter. Drag racing is a little different...

Now, I will say this: the valve tips on my engine do exhibit a good bit of concave wear (thus why I devised my cam-end adjustment procedure). Given the minuscule contact area that the crappy eccentric design has, I guess this is not surprising, but I do wonder if extra film strength from a higher-viscosity oil would have helped. In any case, I'm running lash caps when I redo the engine.

BTW, the oil pressure is still ~60 psi at idle when cold, ~15 psi at hot idle, and 20 psi/1000 rpm.

Oil pressure loss seems to be an indication of advanced wear in the main and rod bearings or in the pump itself more than anything else. Wear in the valvetrain wont have anything to do with that, and it seems like the bottom end is at least okay with thinner viscosity oils.

Of course, this is all just my humble opinion. Just two cents.

[Shawn D.]

Feel free to take it apart and check it out.

To prove what? The camshaft looks great, the oil pressure is good, and oil burning isn't excessive. I've already said the valve tips are concave (on the intake of 1 &2 mostly, the others are only worn a bit). Again, the engine has 340K on it!

You do a lot of highway driving dont you?

No, only about 1/3 of the time is highway.

I mean that you drive in a manner that wont spill your coffee or cause your sunglasses to slide across the dash. At least most of the time.

Well, I don't drink or eat in the car anyhow, and I tie stuff down so it doesn't fly around. Sure, if one is not racing, most of the time is not spent at higher revs or full-throttle. I doubt you'd qualify for "most of the time," either, so I don't know what your point is there.

Autocross is hard on tires, not your engine. I try to keep revs down so I have room to rev. I dont know anybody that runs around a course within 500 rpm of the revlimiter. Drag racing is a little different...

IMO, autocrossing is hard on your engine. I don't drive so I have "room to rev" -- I drive so that I can stay in a single gear throughout most of the course, and most of the time, that's 2nd. I bump the rev limiter regularly doing this, which works better than upshifting to 3rd for a second or two, then downshifting back to 2nd. In any case, I've never seen a course designed so that it would be possible to do "runs around a course within 500 rpm of the revlimiter" -- that would mean you'd be running at a constant speed. The total amount of time spent on the throttle during an autocross is probably close to the time on the throttle during a run down a dragstrip, if not more, and cooling is much lower.

Overall, what is your point? Are you trying to say that my engine hasn't seen hard use? It's neither been babied, nor is it crapped-out via the use of 5W-30.

[turbodan]

I'm obviously not going to argue with you about the condition of your engine. Thats far from my point. I just believe your choice of engine oil is inadvisable and poorly thought out. Thats all.

The moment my old white car spun two rod bearings and wiped the cam, it was running Castrol Syntec 5w40. I cant remember why I had filled it with such light oil, but it didnt last long.

What is your point? Are you trying to establish that super thin engine oils with low concentrations of anti-wear additives are okay to run in our engines?

[bimmerboy]

Why would you run a 25 viscosity oil? That's WAY too thick at startup. All 50 viscositys are the same at running temp, so it makes no sense to not get the thinnest available for startup. Oil protection is from flow not pressure.

I've not done any research in specific to our motors, but it just doesn't make sense with the variety of oils now. Is it for cam? Since we have spray bars?

[Shawn D.]

I'm obviously not going to argue with you about the condition of your engine. Thats far from my point. I just believe your choice of engine oil is inadvisable and poorly thought out. Thats all.

Your point seemed to be that you were convinced my engine was a pile of trash by now, and were trying to convince me of same. You seem not to be able to concede that point. Given the state of oil formulations these days (as you have proven), I can agree that choosing such an oil nowadays would be inadvisable, but it was not "poorly thought out."

What is your point? Are you trying to establish that super thin engine oils with low concentrations of anti-wear additives are okay to run in our engines?

My point was originally just to rib you.

I agree with you about the additives, but you don't have any proof that the Mobil1 I ran from '92-'06 was low in additives, and I have no proof (other than the longevity of the engine) that it had sufficient additives. BTW, "super thin" is your term, not a technical term.

All that being said, now that my reasons for using the Mobil1 5W-30 are OBE by formulation changes and I don't have the same goals, I probably wouldn't run a current-formulation 5W-30. I do like the quick pressurization provided by 0W or 5W oils (especially in cooler temps), but running an Accusump will negate and surpass that benefit, even using a higher-viscosity oil.

[RobertRO]

I continued my email conversation with the Castrol UK guy.
Quite a nice person, he took a lot of time to provide me with a comprehensive feedback.
Although it's quite a long message, I think you may find it interesting, so here it is:
(my questions in italic, his comments in normal text):

"Briefing: the BMW M30 engines were designed in late 60ies and were produced with virtual no major changes until the early 90ies.
In the 80ies, BMW recommended 20W50 SE of SF API rated oils, to be used in the summer time with the M30 engines.
During the past few years, I have been using only Castrol RS 10W-60 oil, and the engine seems to have liked it fine.
Looking at my data, the earliest info I have on the 535i is the M32 - E34 1987 - 93 which specified an ACEA A3/B3 15W-40 - it could indeed be that earlier engines specified a 20W-50 - but my info doesn't go back that far unfortunately. The 10W-60 spec ( TWS Motorsport or EDGE 10W-60 ) is recommended for the later M3 and M5 Sport models only. I don't really have any problems using the EDGE 10W-60 oil in your engine - but some could suggest that a 10W-60 could be seen as being a little more viscous than BMW would have liked in that engine.

My first question: why would you recommend a 0W-40 weight (EDGE Sport ot Magnatec) oil, instead, for example, the EDGE Sport 10W-60, considering that thicker oils are a better fit for old design engines (due to the larger tolerances)?
As suggested above, our records suggest a 15W-40 mineral grade - back in 1980's - 15W-40 and 20W-50 mineral oils were the norm and 10W-40 part synthetics were a bit thin on the ground - however, as oil technology has taken leaps and bounds forward - the advent of part synthetic and full synthetic oils have meant that the viscosities of the oil has been able to support lower Winter ratings ( the "W" bit ) - so, compared to a 15W-40 oil, a 0W-40 would be the same working viscosity at normal working temperature ( 100 degrees ) - but the lower viscosity when cold means that the oil will circulate quicker and start protecting sooner from start up - so the benefits are clear for a lower first number - - ie 10W-X or 0W-X
I did consider the 10W-60 due to the age of the car, but I thought the 10W-40 / 0W-40 option would be better in this instance.
If the car has done lots of miles and burns oil ( it shouldn't do if you are using the 10W-60 already ) then I would have suggested 10W-60 could help, but if the car has been well serviced, and doesn't burn oil then I see no problem using a 10W-40 or a 0W-40 - bearing in mind virtually all BMW are now using a 0W-30 oil

Second question: Castrol Website states that the EDGE Sport 10W-60 replaced the RS 10W-60. Please let me know the ZDDP level in EDGE Sport 10W-60, compared to RS 10W-60.
The EDGE Sport has indeed replaced the Formula RS - I would recommend that if you are going to use a 10W-60 you use the EDGE 10W-60 as this ha specifically approved for BMW. Regarding Zinc levels, the latest EDGE Sport 10W-60 is a slightly lower level than the Formula RS ( around 850 - 900 ppm - about 50 - 100 ppm ) but the TWS formulation is 1000 - 1170 ppm which would offer more zinc additive.
The other consideration for antiwear are the Phosphorous levels - and these are similar to the zinc levels but about 20ppm less. Out of interest - Magnatec 10W-40 would be around 990 - 1000 ppm zinc - EDGE Sport 0W-40 would be around 850 - 900 ppm - but being a full synthetic, should offer better performance when subject to higher temperatures and pressures.

Third question: in a BMW M30 engine, the cam lobes lift the rockers, which push on the valves. Isn't the cam / rocker interaction in a M30 engine about the same thing as a cam / flat tappet interaction? Or perhaps even more demanding, since a flat tappet usually rotates while being lifted by the cam, but the M30 rockers don't.
In theory, in a well oiled engine where the oil is circulating correctly and a good hydrodynamic layer is between the surfaces keeping them apart - should never really need any anti wear additives - these additives are heat activated and should only ever be needed where the oil film has been ruptured and metal to metal contact takes place - with modern oils which have far superior base stocks, especially in the case of part and full synthetics this oil film should be quite able to maintain a layer between the surfaces, and the anti wear additive package should never really be needed. I'm not fully conversant with the workings of the BMW top end, but understand that the issue of lower zinc levels tend to come from the USA where to protect the catalytic converters the levels have been reduced recently, especially with the introduction of the API SM/GF-4 specifications - I understand that flat tappets have extremely high contact pressures and if the oil film isn't strong enough, then the anti wear additive comes into play - this is great when the oil is fairly new, but as the oil is used, so the additive package becomes depleted and one could suggest that the ZDDP additives could be used up. The Valve geometry will determine the loading and I understand that the more classic engines are the ones that seem a concern.

Fourth (and last) question: what is the ZDDP level in the Castrol XL 20W-50 oil?
As a more "traditional style" formulation - the zinc is around 1000 - 1200 ppm which is on par with the likes of the EDGE 10W-60 / TWS Motorsport anyway. The issue with the classic formulations is more about detergent levels, not ZDDP.

So - looking at that epic - I would suggest from your emails regarding your specific engine, for the best protection the EDGE 10W-60 / TWS Motorsport - you have a full synthetic base stock with good additive levels - the oil would be thicker when cold - but if you are using it already and are happy with it ....
The EDGE Sport 0W-40 , although with lower ZDDP levels would offer faster circulation when cold so transfer from a boundary lubrication state ( just the remaining oil film ) to a hydrodynamic state ( where the oil is being pulled between the surfaces by the rotation of the parts and building up a friction reducing oil layer more rapidly ) and if the engine is in good condition and doesn't use oil then this could be a worthwhile consideration.
The Magnatec 10W-40 would be somewhere in-between - but with the benefit of the special Magnatec additive package which is a unique antiwear additive that activates at lower temperatures so offers the benefit of greater protection at start-up where there is more chance of metal to metal contact."

[82_528e_man]

I've spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out what the deal is with engine oils for our engines. I think I've got it down. The bottom line seems to be:

Get something with enough ZDDP. Its all about Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate. 1400ppm is a good amount, but more doesnt hurt. I'm running Pennzoil GT Performance Racing 25w50. Its supposed to have about 2000ppm ZDDP, but I have yet to confirm this with an oil analysis.

If anything, STAY AWAY from API SM rated oils. Mobil 1 15w50 and Kendall GT 20w50 used to be good on ZDDP, but like every other oil they often change thier formulations without making any mention of it. There are a lot of guys out there that have been running these oils for a long time, and continue to depend on them and recommend them. These oils, among others, are not the lubricants they once were. Anything rated API SM can have no more than 800ppm ZDDP. The SM rating has more to do with emissions than any standards of protection. The reasoning is that ZDDP has a negative effect on some types of catalytic convertors when burned in significant amounts. Our cats seem to be safe, as our motors need a certain amount of ZDDP to protect the valvetrain, and they were built accordingly.

Newer cars with 4 valve heads have smaller valves which allows the use of lighter valve springs. So the need for extreme pressure lubricants is less than it is with engines like the M20. Our motors are effectively being phased out, as you will rather quickly wear your motor out running the newest grade motor oils.

I ran my motor fresh off of a full rebuild on Valvoline Synpower 20w50 and I was horrified to find detectable wear in the valvetrain when it came apart again about a year later. Thats not acceptable. I'll be running the Pennzoil 25w50 GT oil as long as I can find it. I got it online for 30 bucks per case of 12. Sure beats the hell out of 6-7 dollars a quart for new synthetic oils that offer drastically reduced wear protection. The SM rated oil you're pouring into the crankcase is more depleted than the oil you should be draining out.

API SL allows something like 1100ppm ZDDP, which is still on the low side. I wouldn't fill with anything containing less than 1400ppm.

Diesel oils like Shell's Rotella aren't safe either. They used to be a sure bet, but with the new emissions requirements for diesels coming around the corner, they're pulling ZDDP out of diesel oils too.

The best bet is a racing oil that is for "racing only", which isn't held to the same emissions requirements as street legal oils. You'll have a hard time finding it at any regular auto parts store. The Pennzoil I'm running is API SG rated, much like many motorcycle oils, which are also a good bet for extreme pressure additives and valvetrain protection.

Synthetic or conventional doesnt matter as much as whats actually in the stuff. 5w30 Mobil 1 for example , probably SM rated, is rape for your rockers, camshaft and valves. The only sensitive conponents in our engines are in the top end. The bottom end bearings, crank journals and everything else doesnt really wear. The only way you're going to hurt that stuff is by revving and running the engine hard before the engine and engine oil is up to operating temp. But if theres not enough ZDDP in your oil, you're going to grind the cam and rockers out of the motor no matter what you do.

Thats my two cents. STAY AWAY FROM API SL/SM OILS. Use motorcycle oils or oils not legal for street use in the right weight. 20w50 or 25w50 is best. 15-40 is too thin if its above 40 degrees outside. Anything thinner than that is too thin for any conditions. The only way to know for sure whats in your oil is to send off a virgin sample for analysis before you put it in your engine. Its worth doing just to know you're going to be safe running 5,000+ miles on any particular oil.

You stated, "Anything rated API SM can have no more than 800ppm ZDDP." That's an incorrect statement, whether you care or not, there are oils rated API SM that do indeed have higher then 800ppm. However, if it is rated by GF-4 specs then it must have 800 or less.

Also, in my opinion, unless you're racing your car on a track constantly, there is no point in using 20W-50. If you think 15W-40 or any 10W, 15W oil is too thin above 40 degrees, you're out of your mind and must be living in another world.

[turbodan]

We've covered that already, if you'd like to go back and read the thread. Most SM oils in heavier weights are still quite low on ZDDP, containing only 1100-1200 ppm.

I dont think you would be "living in another world" by choosing to follow the viscosity recommendations in the owners manual. 20w50 is suitable for all but the coldest winter weather. You're doing nothing good for your engine by running thinner oils than you need to, whether you care or not.

[Azure]

Argh. This sh*t is confusing.

The BMW dealer used to put 10W40 in my old E28, then at the advice of the board I started running a 20W50, now that's too thick? Ug.

Can't we just put up a poll and I'll run whatever the result is?

Not to mention I can't even buy the 20W50 Quaker State Synth blend I was running any more, no one stocks it, now I have no freakin idea what to run!

[rlomba8204]

Argh. This sh*t is confusing.

The BMW dealer used to put 10W40 in my old E28, then at the advice of the board I started running a 20W50, now that's too thick? Ug.

Can't we just put up a poll and I'll run whatever the result is?

Not to mention I can't even buy the 20W50 Quaker State Synth blend I was running any more, no one stocks it, now I have no freakin idea what to run!

Azure:

Some folks around here, while well-intentioned, can be very alarmist about oil grades.

A number of years ago I emailed Mike Miller of Tech Talk / Roundel fame, and based on where you live and what he told me, I think you would be fine with any of a 10w-40, 15w-50, or 20w-50 oil. I would use synthetic, and I would try to get more ZDDP rather than less. I believe (I am tired, so double check this) Mobil 1 10w-40 high mileage and Mobil 1 15w-50 do the trick for our engines. I live in MD/DC, and use 10w-40 in the cold weather months, and 15w-50 in the warm months. That being said, if you used a lighter grade, you'd probably be fine -- you'd just have to check the level to make sure it was full, since an M30 will burn 5w-30 at a faster rate. Fyi, I've also had two BMW master techs tell me that 5w-30 is fine if you keep an eye on the level.

As regards turbodan's posts, I think that he is basically correct, but he is overstating the importance and is probably running his car much harder than probably 95%+ of the population and hence his not misplaced, for him, concern with the finer points of oil. It is fact that when you run a car harder, and you force feed it, you will put much greater stress on the internals and the lubrication. This is why, obviously, race motors, among other things, wear out more quickly than street motors, even though they are superbly maintained.

[DMNaskale]

I came across "ZDDPlus" on one forum, but much like STP's additive, I dont know what to think about the stuff.

The only way to know what you can do with any particular kind of oil is to have an oil analysis done at particular mileage intervals. Send off a sample at 3k, 5k or even 7k if its still looking good at 5k.

Personally, I would Change the oil as soon as Zinc/Phosphorous dropped below 1200ppm. Thats where Mobil 1's 15w50 starts fresh out of the bottle. 1400ppm seems to be a safe minimum amount for a fresh fill, in my humble opinion. A guy could send a sample of Castrol GTX for fresh oil analysis to determine exactly whats in that particular bottle. Just remember that street legal oils are subject to change in formulation without notice. One case of oil may be vastly different from another of the same brand and weight.

I did some more trolling through the interwebs and found out enough about ZddPlus that I went ahead and bought some. Apparently it originated with the Turbo Buick crowd, specifically with Richard Clark, a guy I remember from my car audio crazed teenage years. Turbo Buick ZDDP thread

I am not sure I am 100% on board, there is just too much disparate information out there, but I think there is more potential for good than harm by using the stuff, and the crappy valvetrain is for sure the weak link in our engines. It seems that only engines with very high loadings at the lifter (rocker pad in our cars) are at risk, and the harder they are driven the faster the damage could occur. Valvetrain inertia has a large part to play in this, high RPM use would greatly accelerate this wear. I certainly like to wind out an engine on occasion.

I have seen enough worn BMW valvetrain components to believe that if there is a potential benefit to using this stuff, then I am willing to try it. Now most of the worn out stuff I have seen is from loose oiler bar banjo bolts and high miles, but this ZPPD issue is a recent one and it seems to be for real in the Hi-Po V-8 world. And those engines can create very high lifter loadings, maybe much higher than our engines. But our engines are capable of being spun pretty fast, and the rocker arm to cam interface is a potential weak link, so if a relatively small investment can possibly help, I think it is worth trying.

The ZddPlus stuff is not like I expected, it is almost clear and has a unique and distinct smell, it is about as thick as oil, it is probably mostly oil as a carrier anyway. I guess I expected it to be thicker and darker but if it is a very specific compound of Zinc and Phosphorous as claimed then there is no reason I would have any accurate idea what to expect. It certainly seems like a better option than STP, less junk and more of what we want. According to Mr. Clark, he originally just wanted some for his own large car collection but it was such a bitch to get made, he figured he should sell it if he was going to all the trouble. I hope he is on the money with his claims.

[ismellfish2]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but here's an interesting source for oil with the specs discussed above.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BRAD-PEN ... dZViewItem

[bane.oh]

So all this talk on oil is great, but what about those of us that don't run synthetic and have no plans to switch? I see the conversation including both synthetic and conventional oil, but it seems to me that no conventional oil is rated high enough in ZDDP. Castrol GTX 20/50 or Castrol High Milage 20/50 sound like my best bets, but is there something better?

[turbodan]

My choice, the Pennzoil GT stuff, is conventional. In fact, the only synthetic oil that I really like is the Quaker State Q Racing oil. But its 20 bucks a quart.

I've read that Brad Penn has changed thier formulation recently to a lower ZDDP content, just like Kendall. I'd like to confirm the content of thier new formulations, but short of buying some and sending it off for analysis I dont know how to do that.

[bobaab]

My choice, the Pennzoil GT stuff, is conventional. In fact, the only synthetic oil that I really like is the Quaker State Q Racing oil. But its 20 bucks a quart.

I've read that Brad Penn has changed thier formulation recently to a lower ZDDP content, just like Kendall. I'd like to confirm the content of thier new formulations, but short of buying some and sending it off for analysis I dont know how to do that.

Try Blackstone Labs (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/)

I've heard of many people using their services. They will also send you a free oil sample kit that includes things you can use to send the oil away. I've been meaning to take samples of my oil but I haven't gotten to. It's about $20 a test.

[turbodan]

That would require buying a bunch of oil samples, etc. I dont really feel like doing that. One of these days I will test some of the Pennzoil GT stuff, but thats probably about it.

[bane.oh]

So it sounds like if we got a pool going, we could easily test all the oils we might be interested in. Why doesn't someone create a thread or sticky where mye28 members could donate a small amount of cash, say maybe 5 bucks, to a pool and suggestions could be made to what oils would be a good idea to test. This way we can be the first board to have official documentation on the ZDDP levels in oil. I don't know specifically how this could work, maybe the Beamters have a suggestion? I am more than willing to contribute if someone can take the reigns on the project.

What do you think? Is it possible? Anyone willing to head this up?

I bet if we contacted the labs, we could work out a discount for multiple tests.

[turbodan]

Good call. One lab doing all the testing would be excellent. Different labs tend to vary, so that would be a good variable to eliminate.

[bmws forever]

Due to the sensitivity of this subject, i'm only going to report the facts, and just the facts.
My M30 engine has only seen GTX20-50 except for an unfortunate business relo to Chicago for one winter, when it HAD to go thinner. Changed every 5kmiles, mostly determined by the fact that every 5k is very easy to ID on the odometer. It has 350k on the clock, the head has never been off. The oil pump got changed very recently; that just got the initial pressure up in 2 It has a rapidly shortening #1 intake valve stem, so the head is coming off soon. I've just started to use ZDDplus, in this engine; but I'm more worried about the 2x 454 V8's in my boat, so i'm into ZDDplus by the case anyway. The V8 oil changes are 14 qts of oil at a pop, every 50 hours.

[ismellfish2]

Good call. One lab doing all the testing would be excellent. Different labs tend to vary, so that would be a good variable to eliminate.

I have some Brad Penn oil in the garage, and in the car. I don't know whether you sample used oil or new, or what. I'd be glad to help with that project.

[bane.oh]

The hard part, would be for someone to organize an account that members could donate money to via credit card or ATM. I bet Paypal has something like this. I have absolutely no idea though, having never dealt with anything like this before. Then, once we have enough, someone would have to go to the store, get all the oil, order the test kits, etc. It should be rather simple and I bet a lot of people on this board would be willing to help.

If I don't get a good response here, then I will start a new thread in a few days. If we can get this together, we will be the first site on the internet to have a full list of ZDDP levels in oil. The classic BMW and hot rod communities will thank us.

[ismellfish2]

The hard part, would be for someone to organize an account that members could donate money to via credit card or ATM. I bet Paypal has something like this. I have absolutely no idea though, having never dealt with anything like this before. Then, once we have enough, someone would have to go to the store, get all the oil, order the test kits, etc. It should be rather simple and I bet a lot of people on this board would be willing to help.

If I don't get a good response here, then I will start a new thread in a few days. If we can get this together, we will be the first site on the internet to have a full list of ZDDP levels in oil. The classic BMW and hot rod communities will thank us.

I don't see the need for a new thread yet. We seem on-topic still.

I don't mind buying some quarts of oil to analyze (with some financial assistance) and sending samples to the lab. I'm not sure exactly what we're interested in finding out, though. The lab mentioned above, Blackstone, appears to do analysis mainly geared towards identifying engine problems based on the condition of used oil. I don't see much detail about how they can characterize new oil.

I also don't know that ZDDP is all we should be interested in. I've read that ZDDP is critical most of all in flat-tappet cam engines, and may not be as important to us. I don't have personal experience in performance engines, and I really don't know what the important qualities of an oil are, besides viscosity.

Check this out: 300c forum They've already done something similar. TBN is a measure of the quantity of additives in an oil, but how much crap is in there doesn't seem like a direct indication necessarily of how good it is. This report breaks down which additives each oil has- does anyone have any idea whether an M30 likes more calcium as opposed to phosphorus? I don't, so a report giving that info isn't necessarily useful.

So, I like the idea of putting together a scientific analysis of different types of oil, and I don't mind doing the legwork (buying oil, sampling, and mailing) so long as I don't have to spend a whole lot of money on it. Blackstone's basic analysis is $22.50, and a quart of oil is maybe $5-10, so if we tested 15 oils then that's maybe $450, plus shipping. The logistics are doable, I just don't know exactly what it is we want to find out.