con rods,is it worth it+new head flow numbers

[red535t]

A few numbers have been bantered round the pits that a stock bottem end is good for 500 odd hp.
Is there any truth in that or need i look to buy h-beam rods for the new project?not looking to go over 500,but for safetys sake
If running with stocks,they will be shot-peened.
apparently it makes a worthy % of strengthing.

had the head flowed with the new/larger exhaust valve (with no additional porting) at 10 inches,it moves alittle over 87cfm.stock does round the 70.looks like were heading in the right direction.
cheers marty

[turbodan]

I've never seen that number verified. I think thats pure speculation. Thats okay, as long as it doesn't become accepted as "fact" without any kind of verification.

You could probably do 600rwhp on stock rods. Probably. Nobody wants to throw out a high number like that because theres definitely a possibility that you could end up bending one and blowing your motor.

I say give it a try. I dont think you'll have any problems, but theres only one way to find out.

[russc]

I don't believe you can put 600"whp" to a stock bottom end. Thats 680bhp if you believe Dinans #s. You may do it once, or twice, but thats it. How do you even get a M30 to make 600whp? Even with W/A injection, head/cam work, studs, gasket, W/A IC, 100octane, giant turbo/exhast can you even get there?

The most Ive seen on a stock bottom end was PatP's Red Five, and he made low 400whp. That engine was never in service long enough to know what that really does to a stock bottom. Todd made 383whp, but again, with no consistancy and that engine was not in service really at that level.

Too me, if you going to make more than 350whp and use it with any regularity(not dyno queen), you should remake the engine to do it.

RussC

[turbodan]

You're just scared. Thats no way to do things.

I've never seen an M20 or M30 bottom end harmed by sheer power. I'm trying, but to no avail.

The fact that an M50 can make over 600rwhp on the stock internals goes to show that these motors are a lot stronger than you seem to think. If you can get the top end to flow, I bet it would do it. Thats a different question though. As far as the bottom end, its an unknown quantity.

[Brad D.]

You're just scared. Thats no way to do things.

I've never seen an M20 or M30 bottom end harmed by sheer power. I'm trying, but to no avail.

The fact that an M50 can make over 600rwhp on the stock internals goes to show that these motors are a lot stronger than you seem to think. If you can get the top end to flow, I bet it would do it. Thats a different question though. As far as the bottom end, its an unknown quantity.

I would agree here. I think that the bottom end is still capable of well more than the head can probably support. If you prevent detonation, it's quite amazing what stock parts will survive.

[///ARINUTS...]

don't forget that a lot of times its the high revs that will kill things. If you are using factory parts, don't build an 8,000+rpm engine. Thats when engines are destroyed, when the redline gets pushed.

I remember an E30 325i at an autocross one time that the rod punched a hole through the block because the guy didn't want to shift at the straight away and was revving way past the factory redline. ( chip ? ) Also , don't forget the valve train components at that rev range. rocker arms break and / or valves float and all that fun stuff.

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47019

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17683

[Duke]

I don't believe you can put 600"whp" to a stock bottom end. How do you even get a M30 to make 600whp? Even with W/A injection, head/cam work, studs, gasket, W/A IC, 100octane, giant turbo/exhaust can you even get there?

I don't think a M30 with its 2 valve head can move the amount of air needed. The only way to get close is with a tubular manifold. The log type manifolds will not support the airflow for that HP either. I was up to 25 psi several times on a dyno (no boost bleed off) with minimal gain in HP over 18 psi. I am sure that the boost was just stacking up in the TCD manifold and added boost would not increase HP. Yes, there were other factors too but this was when the head gasket was not leaking. A log manifold will only support ~400 hp, if that.

Take a look at all of the really high HP machines in Europe, they all have top mounted turbos on tubular manifolds. You will also need a four valve head.

Ken H made over 800 hp with a 4 valve head and tubular manifold in his E28. Go and read up on his car, you will learn a lot and he has first hand experience building a huge HP engine. Ken's car is still on the road with no malfunctions...this is a testimate to the quality build. He is not on his second, third or fourth engine like a lot of guys who have turboed the M20/M30/S38, myself included .

[russc]

Mmm,
The guys over at BimmerForums are blowing engines/head gaskets all the time. Most of the guys there are in a constant state of re-build from the 400whp plus stuff.

While thay "can" make 600whp, those engines that do are mostly purpose built rebult lower ends. I can't remember a M50 or any other making that kind of power w/o a total rebuild.

I don't know if the M30 head can even flow enough even with extensive work to make 600whp?

RussC

You're just scared. Thats no way to do things.

I've never seen an M20 or M30 bottom end harmed by sheer power. I'm trying, but to no avail.

The fact that an M50 can make over 600rwhp on the stock internals goes to show that these motors are a lot stronger than you seem to think. If you can get the top end to flow, I bet it would do it. Thats a different question though. As far as the bottom end, its an unknown quantity.

[turbodan]

The amount the head can flow wasn't part of this question as I understood it. I think the bottom end can take a lot more power than we know.

I guess you could call mine a purpose rebuilt motor. I just did bearings, rings and all that crap. I did not replace the pistons, rods or crank though, all of which have over 260k on them. Its still a stock motor though. I'm still on my original bottom end, despite a couple blown head gaskets and a cracked head, all of which were utterly preventable and completely my fault.

I'll have to get back on the dyno and see exactly what I'm making now at ~1.3 bar. Well over 300, thats for sure. I think if I were going to pop a rod it would have happened by now. Especially during one of my many events of severe detonation or overrevving.

[M. Holtmeier]

The rebuild I did on my engine was my fault. It was also totally unneccessary. I could have ran that engine the way it was, but I like the rebuilding process and wanted a fresh start. I agree with RussC that these motors will not reliably handle anywhere close to 600 rwhp. Turbodan, would you warrant your engine for any amount of time/mileage to an average driver and expect it to hold up? I think the line you cross with performance builds is the knowledge needed to sustain the machine's performance.

[turbodan]

Yeah, I would. Just make sure the oil is warm before you jump on the fun pedal, keep the valves adjusted and keep the oil fresh. Thats all I do. If it werent my car, I'd leave the tune conservative.

The bottom end is untouched. I havent had the oil pan off since it went together. The head has been off when I blew it up, but thats all due to tuning. If I were to sell the car and the tune were to be left unchanged, theres nothing about the engine that would require extra attention. I have no replacement interval for bearings, rings, rods, etc.

[russc]

Well ya,
At 300 and change whp, fine. In your case ~19psi, Id guess ~340whp. Were talking 450whp+. There just haven't been enough cars here in the M20/30 ilk to know if the bottom end is good for more than 5k miles at 450whp.

I tend to agree with Duke that the engine is limited to ~19psi via the 2v head. This sorta backs up my experience going from ~13psi to 17 and 18psi. My dyno runs made no more top end power w/3-4psi extra. Now thats not the end all be all. The tune was not right for that boost and the engine was terribley heat soaked.

Most of the experience I have with the big 400whp+ stuff is over at BFc. There have been alot of stock M/S 50/52 engines over there that blew "bottom" ends making that kind of power. Ive been looking at the F/I board for more than 6yrs. There have been lots of twisted rods, broken pistons/bolts/rods ect @ 450whp. And most of the big guys that have the 600whp rigs are mostly garage queens with purpose built bottom and top ends.

I still believe if you can put 450whp to a M20/30 and use it with any consistancy, the stock bottom end won't last 10k.

RussC

[T_C_D]

I don't think a M30 with its 2 valve head can move the amount of air needed. The only way to get close is with a tubular manifold. The log type manifolds will not support the airflow for that HP either. I was up to 25 psi several times on a dyno (no boost bleed off) with minimal gain in HP over 18 psi. I am sure that the boost was just stacking up in the TCD manifold and added boost would not increase HP. Yes, there were other factors too but this was when the head gasket was not leaking. A log manifold will only support ~400 hp, if that.

TCD manifold on bone stock m30b34 with 213k miles did just fine at 19psi. That's over 500tq at the crank!

[Duke]

TCD manifold on bone stock m30b34 with 213k miles did just fine at 19psi. That's over 500tq at the crank!

Yea...so. What I stated stands. The engine did not make over 400 RWHP. The manifold/head will not support it. If he had kept increasing the boost, very little power gains would have been seen.

[derrith]

I don't think a M30 with its 2 valve head can move the amount of air needed. The only way to get close is with a tubular manifold. The log type manifolds will not support the airflow for that HP either. I was up to 25 psi several times on a dyno (no boost bleed off) with minimal gain in HP over 18 psi. I am sure that the boost was just stacking up in the TCD manifold and added boost would not increase HP. Yes, there were other factors too but this was when the head gasket was not leaking. A log manifold will only support ~400 hp, if that.

TCD manifold on bone stock m30b34 with 213k miles did just fine at 19psi. That's over 500tq at the crank!

But what was the difference between 19psi and say 15psi? Would there be there significant gains or not is what I'd be curious to see.

[T_C_D]

348/395 at 15psi IIRC

[derrith]

348/395 at 15psi IIRC

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

[red535t]

Ok,
interesting points listed.
the build is close to 3700cc.9.3 compression.(98 octane)
10psi boost. testing to go to 12max.
methanol injection
head work,is anyone's guess at this point.
28 inch test tomorrow
cheers for the info

other then basic rod strength,having lighter rods
,what effect will that have on the engine dynamics?

[Duke]

But what was the difference between 19psi and say 15psi? Would there be there significant gains or not is what I'd be curious to see.

I found that my car ran best with 15 psi. The gains above 15 psi were not that noticeable and just a waste of fuel.

[FirstFives Dictator]

I'm wondering if playing with cam timing might have netted a tq peak at a higher rpm (and thus higher hp # for bragging rights)?

[T_C_D]

I found that my car ran best with 15 psi. The gains above 15 psi were not that noticeable and just a waste of fuel.

Generally the additonal boost doesn't burn well when it is leaking from the combustion chamber into the cooling system.

[Duke]

Generally the additonal boost doesn't burn well when it is leaking from the combustion chamber into the cooling system.

Bwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaa...........Haaaa.....Haaaaaaaaaaa..............your so funny.

Not.

The combustion leak was a very expensive TCD engine build option.....I recommend it highly.

[Rich Euro M5]

I'm wondering if playing with cam timing might have netted a tq peak at a higher rpm (and thus higher hp # for bragging rights)?

Peter,

I think you might gain small improvements but nothing great. My experience with SOHC turbo Volvo engines is that the torque curve shifts up and down in RPM with cam timing changes. The Swedes are getting obscene torque/hp from the 2 valve, 4 cylinder Volvo engines. IMO, to maximize head flow and cylinder filling, a custom ground camshaft with lift, duration, and overlap tailored for FI use would yield more gains than extensive head porting / polishing.

Rich

[Duke]

IMO, to maximize head flow and cylinder filling, a custom ground camshaft with lift, duration, and overlap tailored for FI use would yield more gains than extensive head porting / polishing.

That is exactly what Paul Burke can do. You name the numbers and he can have the camshaft made. Don't forget about the adjustable cam sprocket he made me. That would be a HP maker too.

[raceaddic]

couldn't make the effort to quote you all

M30/m106/m102 stock bottom end with o.rings will support 600whp no questions about it. i have made a few now

one 617rwhp M102 and a 575whp Stock bottom end B35 engine

m30B34 head with extensive porting, Mira grinding and a god camshaft will flow for 700hp if you have a nice big turbo

b35 head flows for 650hp just with Mira grinding and some mild porting on the exhaust side of course with a god 284/280 degree cam with 110 loob separation

and all you non believers try run 11.64 with 210km/h trap speed with a stock 1760kilos e34 535i

[turbodan]

See, thats all we needed was someone with the balls to try something.

Great info.

[Ken H.]

couldn't make the effort to quote you all

M30/m106/m102 stock bottom end with o.rings will support 600whp no questions about it. i have made a few now

one 617rwhp M102 and a 575whp Stock bottom end B35 engine

OK. Assuming a 16% powertrain loss factor, 617 rwhp = ~735 crank hp. 735 crank implies ~74 #/ min air delivery into the head. A few questions here. First, what kind of air volume numbers are you seeing on the flowbench? Second, what make or model of turbo are you using, and at what boost level? Third, what RPM are you seeing the stated hp figures at? Fourth, octane rating on the fuel you are using? Fifth,What is the life expectancy of these motors, i.e., how many over the highway miles before they require rebuilding?

In other words, I really don't care to hear about dragstrip numbers, good for a few passes and beating the daylights out of the local dyno. I see 700-inch Mopar blocks make 8000 HP for about five or six seconds down the quarter before they have themselves for lunch. So what?

m30B34 head with extensive porting, Mira grinding and a god camshaft will flow for 700hp if you have a nice big turbo

More questions. What is "extensive porting?" Please describe a "god camshaft" for us. What is "a nice big turbo?" A GT-60 or what?

b35 head flows for 650hp just with Mira grinding and some mild porting on the exhaust side of course with a god 284/280 degree cam with 110 loob separation

Fine. At what kind of boost level and with what air mass delivery, and what size turbo?

and all you non believers try run 11.64 with 210km/h trap speed with a stock 1760kilos e34 535i

Don't doubt it at all. What configuration/lockup/stall point on the trans?

raceaddic, what I would like to see is one of your constructs take to the Nordschleife and run for about 12 hours nonstop save for fuel and tires.

Nonetheless, I am impressed with the hp numbers (really); it's just that I'd rather have 10-15% less, but have it around for 200,000 km or so.

[raceaddic]

couldn't make the effort to quote you all

M30/m106/m102 stock bottom end with o.rings will support 600whp no questions about it. i have made a few now

one 617rwhp M102 and a 575whp Stock bottom end B35 engine

OK. Assuming a 16% powertrain loss factor, 617 rwhp = ~735 crank hp. 735 crank implies ~74 #/ min air delivery into the head. A few questions here. First, what kind of air volume numbers are you seeing on the flowbench? Second, what make or model of turbo are you using, and at what boost level? Third, what RPM are you seeing the stated hp figures at? Fourth, octane rating on the fuel you are using? Fifth,What is the life expectancy of these motors, i.e., how many over the highway miles before they require rebuilding?
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first i use a 13% powertrain loss thats more to the truth with my numbers and turboflow

in flowbench around 265cbf/in and 189 out 12.5mm of lift all at 28"

turbo was a Borg warner S366 66mm in and trim 79 and AR 1.10 on exhaust. boost 1.8bar (26psi) its a little to small turbo but its the best there is
http://www.bullseyepower.com/S300.asp

intercooler Ebay 24"x12"x4" works really nice

max power at 7200rpm

we have Shell V-Power 99 octane pump gas here is sweden expensive like hell around $2½ for 1L

i drove this engine entire summer/Autumn thats around 6 moth Daily driving to work and everywhere else around
1240 miles with much racing, i took the engine appart when the snow came and there was no wear to the crank bearings and just little wear on the con.rod bearings,

this engine was sold to a man from Norway and is still in use
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In other words, I really don't care to hear about dragstrip numbers, good for a few passes and beating the daylights out of the local dyno. I see 700-inch Mopar blocks make 8000 HP for about five or six seconds down the quarter before they have themselves for lunch. So what?

m30B34 head with extensive porting, Mira grinding and a god camshaft will flow for 700hp if you have a nice big turbo

More questions. What is "extensive porting?" Please describe a "god camshaft" for us. What is "a nice big turbo?" A GT-60 or what?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
extensive porting on a B34 head is rebuild intake Channel to get better flow numbers with a bit off Holts Wondarweld in the floor of the channel. but i prefer the b35 head due to less work.

in my 617hp engine a used a 296/302/112 cam with 12.2 mm intake and 12.4mm exhaust lift it was a fun engine but had a lack of punch under 4500rpm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

b35 head flows for 650hp just with Mira grinding and some mild porting on the exhaust side of course with a god 284/280 degree cam with 110 loob separation

Fine. At what kind of boost level and with what air mass delivery, and what size turbo?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
best cam for turbo and daily driving is the 284/280 cam it has normal idling and was nice for driving on daily bases.

same turbo as above with 20psi of boost
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and all you non believers try run 11.64 with 210km/h trap speed with a stock 1760kilos e34 535i

Don't doubt it at all. What configuration/lockup/stall point on the trans?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stock getrag 260 with singel grade 70w oil, clutch is a Sachs ..765 pressure plate with 6 paddle sinter just killed one gearbox due to a bad shift 3gear died
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raceaddic, what I would like to see is one of your constructs take to the Nordschleife and run for about 12 hours nonstop save for fuel and tires.
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the E34 535 has now gone 15.534 miles with just normal service every 3000mile (15w-50 motorcycle race oil),
its my to work and back car winter as summer, But i don´t use 20psi all the time more like 14psi for daily use and 20psi at race. my girlfriend and i made a Tripp to her relatives in Germany that was a 2 485mile Tripp with no problems at all except a ticket for speeding

i thnk the thing is to tune the engine well and to stay on the safe side when boosting like lambda 0.79 on 20psi and stay under 800degrees C with stock pistons

Nonetheless, I am impressed with the hp numbers (really); it's just that I'd rather have 10-15% less, but have it around for 200,000 km or so.

their is several clips on youtube search for Raceaddic

sorry for bad spelling and so on

[russc]

RaceAddic,
Um, Im very curious about the #s you have in your tag line?

Your saying 577whp @ 7200rpm on a polish/port'd stock head with a 284/280cam @20psi????? Im not sure I can believe that? Please help.

First, TCDs bone stock M30b34 made 383whp at 19psi. Your increasing the head flow by 50% @ the same pressure ratio with just a 284cam, head work and intake manifold/exhaust changes?(Im assuming tubular exhaust and sheetmetal intake manifold).

More importantly, you were able to make 420lb/ft of torque at 7200rpm with a mostly stock head????? TCDs engine made 440lb/ft @ 4400rpm. You got a mostly stock head to flow that kind of air 7200rpm???? This is with stock pistons making 9.1:1 compression ratio?

Wow, do you have dyno charts you can post? Im not saying you didn't make the power, but your doing things that Ive not seen anywhere with the M30 2v/cyl head, especially getting 420lb/ft @ 7200rpm?

RussC

[Duke]

RaceAddic,
Your saying 577whp @ 7200rpm on a polish/port'd stock head with a 284/280cam @ 20psi????? I'm not sure I can believe that? Please help.

I do not believe any of the dyno numbers coming out of Europe. They are all grossly exaggerated to say the least. It's as if they have a different standard for HP than we use in the US. If Pat P. with Big Red could not produce what they claim to be doing in Europe, no one can. The numbers are bogus.

He must be applying the Euro to $ exchange rate to his dyno results.

Russ, don't waste any mental effort trying to get the numbers to make sense, they never will. I can also produce a dyno chart for you that will indicate whatever I want. So can they.