Hello everyone,
Just curious to see what the opinions are of M5 owners as to how friendly the S38 is to the DIYer. I'm assuming that almost everything else on the M5 is essentially the same as any other E28. So, my focus is on the engine here (and trans).
Have many of you guys changed timing chains, tensioners, oil pumps, water pumps, etc. ? I'm interested to know if all the things that can cause utter chaos when they fail can be replaced by Joe BMW in his garage. Or, do you guys feel more peace of mind paying a pro to take care of your S38 engine?
If you did jump in there on your own, did you just use a Bentley manual and the wisdom from these boards to get it done? Or, is there a less cryptic E28/M5 manual to be found out there to guide you along?
Thank you in advance for any and all replies.
regards,
Joel
M5 for the DIYer?
I've only had my car since 5/07.
So far I've done my own work.
I have not had to get inside the engine yet but a cylinder head rebuild is coming up and I will remove and replace the head myself.
Doing these repairs is mostly a matter of how confident and comfortable you are with your abilities. It also helps to have a friend or mechanic that can answer your questions.
This forum works very well for that.
There is also a board on Yahoo called S-38-M88 that has very knowledgable people. Many are on this forum too.
There are many owners out there that pay for most of their repairs so some of this is based on economics.
I understand the hardest thing for the DIY mechanic is removing the nut for the harmonic balancer.
So far a good manual on the S-38 engine is a problem.
The only one I know is good is the one the dealer mechanics had and they are very hard to come by.
Hope this helps some.
So far I've done my own work.
I have not had to get inside the engine yet but a cylinder head rebuild is coming up and I will remove and replace the head myself.
Doing these repairs is mostly a matter of how confident and comfortable you are with your abilities. It also helps to have a friend or mechanic that can answer your questions.
This forum works very well for that.
There is also a board on Yahoo called S-38-M88 that has very knowledgable people. Many are on this forum too.
There are many owners out there that pay for most of their repairs so some of this is based on economics.
I understand the hardest thing for the DIY mechanic is removing the nut for the harmonic balancer.
So far a good manual on the S-38 engine is a problem.
The only one I know is good is the one the dealer mechanics had and they are very hard to come by.
Hope this helps some.
Joel , the google search engine is great..I just googled s38 timing chain replacement and got this. I would spend some time and do some research in addition to posting questions here. Steve Haygood is also a wealth of information for these motors.My M5 has 112k on it and I am wanting to tear into it but I'm still on restriction until I sell something(s). 
Thanks for the replies guys.
As far as my own mechanical abilities, well I have done a fair amount of work on cars in the past. But, I was just wanting to hear owner's opinions on how they felt about doing work on their cars.
Previously, I've owned a few vintage Volkswagens and Austin Healeys. Each marque and model had it's own quirkiness and peculiarities when it came to doing major engine work. Now, neither of those makes had engines nearly as technologically advanced as the S38 engine. So, yes, I guess I do have some apprehension concerning my abilities to work on the S38.
johhnye23 - Thank you for the link. I will continue to search and lurk on the boards here. I have found quite a few DIY articles which is very helpful, but it's also nice to know if the DIY-er is still sane after completing the project.
Thanks again guys.
regards,
Joel
As far as my own mechanical abilities, well I have done a fair amount of work on cars in the past. But, I was just wanting to hear owner's opinions on how they felt about doing work on their cars.
Previously, I've owned a few vintage Volkswagens and Austin Healeys. Each marque and model had it's own quirkiness and peculiarities when it came to doing major engine work. Now, neither of those makes had engines nearly as technologically advanced as the S38 engine. So, yes, I guess I do have some apprehension concerning my abilities to work on the S38.
johhnye23 - Thank you for the link. I will continue to search and lurk on the boards here. I have found quite a few DIY articles which is very helpful, but it's also nice to know if the DIY-er is still sane after completing the project.
Thanks again guys.
regards,
Joel
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Bryan in SB
- Posts: 2002
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006
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scottiesharpe
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006
- Location: San Jose CA
- Contact:
johnnye23 wrote:Joel , the google search engine is great..I just googled s38 timing chain replacement and got this. I would spend some time and do some research in addition to posting questions here. Steve Haygood is also a wealth of information for these motors.My M5 has 112k on it and I am wanting to tear into it but I'm still on restriction until I sell something(s).
I can say from experience that is NOT the way to do this job. I'm not trying to put down the person who wrote it. But if you use the right tools, you won't damage your engine while trying to "fix" it.
I'm far from professional and bought a M635 knowing that all repairs would be DIY. My experience before was many little things on a 635CSi including a couple M30 headgasket R&R projects. Yes, these M cars are just like the others except for the motor. My first job with the car last fall was to R&R the chain and plastic guide. Lots of steps, but with a torque multiplier the crank hub nut removal was easy, anticlimactic, in fact.
http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/bmw/bm ... 567&page=1
http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/bmw/bm ... 213&page=1
So I say go for it. Expect to pay more annually for parts but it isn't more difficult. More intimidating, sure. It's not a good car to learn on.
I never found a specific manual but I did order the giant binder that lists every torque spec for every nut and bolt on every BMW, including the M88/3, S38, S14, etc. That, plus M30 experience, plus the E28 Bentley manual, plus here and the E24 Roadfly community, plus occasional pats on the head from Steve H., gives me humble confidence that I can handle everything short of a motor rebuild myself.
http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/bmw/bm ... 567&page=1
http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/bmw/bm ... 213&page=1
So I say go for it. Expect to pay more annually for parts but it isn't more difficult. More intimidating, sure. It's not a good car to learn on.
I never found a specific manual but I did order the giant binder that lists every torque spec for every nut and bolt on every BMW, including the M88/3, S38, S14, etc. That, plus M30 experience, plus the E28 Bentley manual, plus here and the E24 Roadfly community, plus occasional pats on the head from Steve H., gives me humble confidence that I can handle everything short of a motor rebuild myself.
I just sent you links to my websites for detailed info. FYI, if the car is well sorted you should enjoy years of enjoyment w/ out spending too much cash. I was unemployed for a couple of years at one point of my life and gas money was all I needed for my M5. The engines, rear diff and tranny from my personal experience are bulletproof! I did not have to take the engine apart until she reached 234,000+ hard driven miles. The rest are "normal" E28 parts you can get cheap at a junkyard or Steve Haygood.
M5Zealot, you've never done a thing until 234k? No timing guides, crank hubs, etc. Valve adjustment I assume though.
I've been curious if BMW ever came out with an 'official' position or service recommendation on these motors guts.
I've followed as much of this as I can because my car has 45k on the clock but is now 20 years old. I was planning to do the guide rails and such, considering a cam gear and crank hub while I'm in there. I have collected some of the parts already and thinking I'd dig in this summer.
My baseline is my 535 with 230k+ miles and never had the engine opened up to my knowledge except for the valve adjustments. My expectation was roughly the same longevity for the M635 until I started reading here and other places about potential failures. Feel like I'm buying insurance to this job and that's OK I guess.
I've been curious if BMW ever came out with an 'official' position or service recommendation on these motors guts.
I've followed as much of this as I can because my car has 45k on the clock but is now 20 years old. I was planning to do the guide rails and such, considering a cam gear and crank hub while I'm in there. I have collected some of the parts already and thinking I'd dig in this summer.
My baseline is my 535 with 230k+ miles and never had the engine opened up to my knowledge except for the valve adjustments. My expectation was roughly the same longevity for the M635 until I started reading here and other places about potential failures. Feel like I'm buying insurance to this job and that's OK I guess.
BMW never had a teardown interval, and the only elder BMW engines I've ever seen damaged badly enough to require teardown were due to neglect leading to low oil pressure or overheating. The only common (non-upgrade) reasons for teardown at high mileages is due to either low oil pressure, noise, or excessive emissions/smoke. If properly cared through it's life there's no reason an S38 can't see 300k. The problem is most of our cars were in less sympathetic hands at one point and we're paying for it now.
As an example, a friend of mine recently acquired a 220k mile M5 owned from new by a family member. When he got it down to me, I found the car running on 4 cylinders. Not only was there heavy carbon deposits on the the valves and pistons from running 87 octane, but the mixture had never been touched, the plugs were completely eroded and covered in deposits, and the valves had apparently never been adjusted!! It runs beautifully now, after much resuscitation.
There's lots of hype about the chain guides, and it's all valid because it's a catastrophic failure, but on the other hand it may come off as a bit bigger issue than it is, because this is a pretty concentrated little community. I'm not trying to play down the issue, but the percentage of S engine guys is has actually happened to is tiny. I haven't checked that S38 chain guide link, but Scottie is right on- with the correct tools there should be no collateral damage.
If you're new to the car or unfamiliar with it's history, it's prudent to pull the cam cover off and have a look around. TN535, with such low mileage on your car (45k? Was that a typo?), I'd be more concerned about the guides failing from lack of use than anything.
Sorry if I ranted a bit
As an example, a friend of mine recently acquired a 220k mile M5 owned from new by a family member. When he got it down to me, I found the car running on 4 cylinders. Not only was there heavy carbon deposits on the the valves and pistons from running 87 octane, but the mixture had never been touched, the plugs were completely eroded and covered in deposits, and the valves had apparently never been adjusted!! It runs beautifully now, after much resuscitation.
There's lots of hype about the chain guides, and it's all valid because it's a catastrophic failure, but on the other hand it may come off as a bit bigger issue than it is, because this is a pretty concentrated little community. I'm not trying to play down the issue, but the percentage of S engine guys is has actually happened to is tiny. I haven't checked that S38 chain guide link, but Scottie is right on- with the correct tools there should be no collateral damage.
If you're new to the car or unfamiliar with it's history, it's prudent to pull the cam cover off and have a look around. TN535, with such low mileage on your car (45k? Was that a typo?), I'd be more concerned about the guides failing from lack of use than anything.
Sorry if I ranted a bit
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TheE28Ranch
- Posts: 2046
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006
- Location: Marquette, MI
When it comes to work on the S38, I trust it to those with the experience. I won't trust a certified mechanic at Ford or Dodge or whatever to work on it, so why should I trust my own limited mechanical skills? I drove my M5 700 miles to Cincy last year to have the timing change service and related work done by a shop that knows their stuff on foreign exotics. The mechanic who worked on my car had never done the service, but I pointed him to this forum, he did his homework, spoke to other mechanics who'd done the work, and 1000 miles later I'm fine.
Point is I don't have the time to do the work, or the experience, and the last thing I want to do is change my S38 into a boat anchor. Ever seen the factory specs on (I think) the head bolts or the cam tower bolts? Turn #1 bolt 1/2 a turn, turn #2 half a turn, etc....through the last...now go back and do it again, after waiting 1/2 hour etc.... that's typically only done on a rebuild, but you get my point. (I wonder how many mechanics actually adhere to this...feel free to chime in people). I don't claim to know everything about these S38 motors and working on them, which is why I leave it to others.
Point is I don't have the time to do the work, or the experience, and the last thing I want to do is change my S38 into a boat anchor. Ever seen the factory specs on (I think) the head bolts or the cam tower bolts? Turn #1 bolt 1/2 a turn, turn #2 half a turn, etc....through the last...now go back and do it again, after waiting 1/2 hour etc.... that's typically only done on a rebuild, but you get my point. (I wonder how many mechanics actually adhere to this...feel free to chime in people). I don't claim to know everything about these S38 motors and working on them, which is why I leave it to others.
Minotaur,
Good points. I fall into the same category. I plan on using whichever E28 I buy as a daily driver, and since I am in the Army, sometimes I just don't have the time or convenience to have a car taken apart in my garage. I used to do a lot of work on my old AH Sprite...but that was a far simpler motor than the S38.
regards,
Joel
Good points. I fall into the same category. I plan on using whichever E28 I buy as a daily driver, and since I am in the Army, sometimes I just don't have the time or convenience to have a car taken apart in my garage. I used to do a lot of work on my old AH Sprite...but that was a far simpler motor than the S38.
regards,
Joel
But there's more commonsensical engineering in the S38!JSimmons wrote:Minotaur,
Good points. I fall into the same category. I plan on using whichever E28 I buy as a daily driver, and since I am in the Army, sometimes I just don't have the time or convenience to have a car taken apart in my garage. I used to do a lot of work on my old AH Sprite...but that was a far simpler motor than the S38.
regards,
Joel
wkohler wrote:But there's more commonsensical engineering in the S38!JSimmons wrote:Minotaur,
Good points. I fall into the same category. I plan on using whichever E28 I buy as a daily driver, and since I am in the Army, sometimes I just don't have the time or convenience to have a car taken apart in my garage. I used to do a lot of work on my old AH Sprite...but that was a far simpler motor than the S38.
regards,
Joel
You are correct sir.
Joel
yes yes it's true! My mechanic assumed I did most of the maintenance....timing chair etc. When I was out of work all I did was change the oil and put gas in her. I either got lucky or these S38s are really bullet proof. BTW I did not install a Fahey hub either. OEM one lasted 20 years and no reason the new OEM one won't do the same.tn535i wrote:M5Zealot, you've never done a thing until 234k? No timing guides, crank hubs, etc. Valve adjustment I assume though.
I've been curious if BMW ever came out with an 'official' position or service recommendation on these motors guts.
I've followed as much of this as I can because my car has 45k on the clock but is now 20 years old. I was planning to do the guide rails and such, considering a cam gear and crank hub while I'm in there. I have collected some of the parts already and thinking I'd dig in this summer.
My baseline is my 535 with 230k+ miles and never had the engine opened up to my knowledge except for the valve adjustments. My expectation was roughly the same longevity for the M635 until I started reading here and other places about potential failures. Feel like I'm buying insurance to this job and that's OK I guess.
Here is a pic of guide and chain....dirty and worn but far from causing engine failure. 234,000+ miles.
It's great to read about other's experience. I'm in no panic to change anything but will get ready to at some point. I guess there are those who don't trust themselves to work on these engines but I find it rewarding. Mistakes could be costly but even mechanics at high end shops and dealers make mistakes. The S38 is no doubt the finest engine I've owned and now worked on but the priciples and care you should take are all the same. As someone early said and I agree, it is one to work up to rather than start on. My BMW history is a 2002, then a 325 M20, then a e28 M30, now the S38. This website and links has been one of the best resources I've found and invaluable since there is no real manual on this engine I guess but I'm finding all I need to know here.
This weekend I finally did my valve inspection and it was great fun. I put up results/comments in another post. I also 'think' my chain and guide rail (somewhat yellowed) looks to be in excellent condition. At least the slight peek you can get of it all.
This weekend I finally did my valve inspection and it was great fun. I put up results/comments in another post. I also 'think' my chain and guide rail (somewhat yellowed) looks to be in excellent condition. At least the slight peek you can get of it all.