E28 Fears

Cory · Post by **Cory** » Jun 20, 2007 5:45 PM

My '88 M5 runs better everytime I get behind the wheel. Just returned from a short trip and it just hummed along at 90mph. All maintenance is done except for the timing chain (124,000 miles) and the experts are split on that one anyway.
As great as it runs and is completely sorted out I'm not a mechanical dynamo. I'm pretty good at the basics, but have to rely on others for more complex mechanical issues which creates my fear of ownership as I wait for something to explode.
I've recently listed it for sale at a high price with no takers so I'm getting new tires on the original wheels and putting them on Friday since it looks like I'm keeping it. Probably not a bad thing because I've got less into it than a new Honda Civic costs and it runs probably as well as when it was new.
So are my fears rational or irrational? Any insights into E28 ownership for a mechanical semi-novice would be a great thing.

Tammer in Philly · Post by **Tammer in Philly** » Jun 20, 2007 5:52 PM

Oh my God. If you are that scared, just do the work. If not, then don't. That is really all there is to it.

-tammer

Cory · Post by **Cory** » Jun 20, 2007 6:20 PM

Tammer in Philly wrote:Oh my God. If you are that scared, just do the work. If not, then don't. That is really all there is to it.

-tammer

I think I'm OK now.

M635CSi · Post by **M635CSi** » Jun 20, 2007 6:55 PM

Cory wrote:My '88 M5 runs better everytime I get behind the wheel. Just returned from a short trip and it just hummed along at 90mph. All maintenance is done except for the timing chain (124,000 miles) and the experts are split on that one anyway.

In my experience, an engine quite often runs best just before it blows up...

As far as "All maintenance is done except for the timing chain", isn't that like saying your friend has a great wife except she cheats on him?

No Cory, the "experts" are not spilt on the issue. Anyone of "expert" standing would advise you to have the timing chain components replaced ASAP. The fact that some tell you otherwise should be all the evidence you need that they are not an expert...

Cory wrote:As great as it runs and is completely sorted out I'm not a mechanical dynamo. I'm pretty good at the basics, but have to rely on others for more complex mechanical issues which creates my fear of ownership as I wait for something to explode.

And explode, I sense it will...

Cory wrote:I've recently listed it for sale at a high price with no takers so I'm getting new tires on the original wheels and putting them on Friday since it looks like I'm keeping it.

Most people willing to pay a high price for an E28 M5 will pass on a car that hasn't had the maintenance done. The S38/M88 timing chain is a maintenance issue.

Cory wrote:Probably not a bad thing because I've got less into it than a new Honda Civic costs and it runs probably as well as when it was new.

Don't be surprised when that changes...

Cory wrote:So are my fears rational or irrational? Any insights into E28 ownership for a mechanical semi-novice would be a great thing.

Fear is a gift; don’t overlook its value...

Good luck with your car, an E28 in M5 trim is a sweet ride!

Cory · Post by **Cory** » Jun 20, 2007 7:25 PM

I guess the bright side is that Fred Thompson will be our next President. I'll take a destroyed engine for that.

tacm · Post by **tacm** » Jun 21, 2007 9:03 AM

Cory wrote:I guess the bright side is that Fred Thompson will be our next President. I'll take a destroyed engine for that.

Steve Haygood · Post by **Steve Haygood** » Jun 21, 2007 9:48 AM

yep, do it and M635 is right on all points. No "expert" I know says it doesn't need to be done.

vance · Post by **vance** » Jun 21, 2007 10:05 AM

Cory wrote:I guess the bright side is that Fred Thompson will be our next President. I'll take a destroyed engine for that.

How about fixing the chain and maybe Fred will still get it, Cause if it lets loose, you will shed some tears. All the maintenance is done except for the timing chain goes together about like Protestant Nun.

Vance

Andyboy · Post by **Andyboy** » Jun 21, 2007 5:09 PM

This is interesting stuff. In Europe M5 E28's and not Cat M635CSi's have a single row chain. They need doing before 100k without fail because they do break.

I'm told US cars with the Cat engine have a double row chain. Well over here nobody has heard of one of those breaking except the specialist workshops trying to get £2000 from you! Here, duplex chains are only used on the E34 M5's and the E30 M3 and they only break when the chain is really noisy and it's stretched to buggery. The M3 chains wear to the point where they can jump teeth but by that point the thing sounds like a cement mixer.

I'm not saying they don't break of course, but 124k on a duplex M5 timing chain (provided it's quiet of course) wouldn't worry me unduly. I've seen M5 E34's with 200k and the first chain. The highest I've seen is a 3.6 with 265'000 miles and still running albeit pretty tired.
I'm assuming of course that the duplex E28 chain set up is the same as the E34?

Tammer in Philly · Post by **Tammer in Philly** » Jun 21, 2007 5:14 PM

Andyboy wrote:This is interesting stuff. In Europe M5 E28's and not Cat M635CSi's have a single row chain. They need doing before 100k without fail because they do break.

I'm told US cars with the Cat engine have a double row chain. Well over here nobody has heard of one of those breaking except the specialist workshops trying to get £2000 from you! Here, duplex chains are only used on the E34 M5's and the E30 M3 and they only break when the chain is really noisy and it's stretched to buggery. The M3 chains wear to the point where they can jump teeth but by that point the thing sounds like a cement mixer.

I'm not saying they don't break of course, but 124k on a duplex M5 timing chain (provided it's quiet of course) wouldn't worry me unduly. I've seen M5 E34's with 200k and the first chain. The highest I've seen is a 3.6 with 265'000 miles and still running albeit pretty tired.
I'm assuming of course that the duplex E28 chain set up is the same as the E34?

The chain doesn't break; that's not the issue. The plastic chain guides, on the other hand, can and do break after 20 years of heat-cycling induces brittleness. Then the chain goes slack and the timing can screw up, with the predictable very nasty effects.

A very reputable mechanic in the area (King of Prussia) says it's nothing to worry about. He has raced E28 and E34 M5s for years. What I don't know is, has he ever really pushed an older motor? He keeps his hardware pretty fresh. It's like anything else, risk vs. benefit. Some people have had timing-chain guide failures that cost them large money. Others haven't seen it. So, how lucky do you feel? Given that the prevention is an eventual necessity, and is costs about 20% of the actual repair should the parts fail, it makes sense to me to do it on any S38 motor north of 20 years/120k miles or so.

-tammer

wkohler · Post by **wkohler** » Jun 21, 2007 5:14 PM

It's not so much the chain, but the plastic guides and tensioners that are the issue.

Steve Haygood · Post by **Steve Haygood** » Jun 21, 2007 5:31 PM

ok , try this for logic, If I am a shop that wants to maximize profits, or even worse have a chance at buying an M car for cheap. Do I sell a preventative maintenance at say 2000.00 USD or a clinder head rebuild at 6000.00 USD ? Furthermore, most shops don't want to to work on an S38 or an M88 anyway, so the customer is told, " you don't need to worry about a timing chain" I have sold many sets of timing chain components without a set of valves,head bolts and a head set and I have sold a few with the valves, head set and bolts. Which do you think was the most unhappy "wishing I had the last 5 miles back customer ?

Of course if it had over 75,000 miles on it it most likely has worn exhaust valve guides anyway, so there is a small consolation

Race engines are a totally different ball game, ever seen a race engine with 100,000 miles on it ..before a complete rebuild ?. Heck most race engines might get 5000 miles a year,tops

be safe and have fun

Andyboy · Post by **Andyboy** » Jun 21, 2007 5:33 PM

Fair enough. On the M3 S14 motor, a useful upgrade is to fit the E36 tensioner. I did this on mine and it got rid of the typical S14 start up chain 'jangle'.

It's a tricky thing, preventative maintenance. Cars are like humans - the doctors find ways of making us live longer so we can die of something new!

Rich Euro M5 · Post by **Rich Euro M5** » Jun 21, 2007 5:33 PM

Tammer in Philly wrote:
Andyboy wrote:This is interesting stuff. In Europe M5 E28's and not Cat M635CSi's have a single row chain. They need doing before 100k without fail because they do break.

I'm told US cars with the Cat engine have a double row chain. Well over here nobody has heard of one of those breaking except the specialist workshops trying to get £2000 from you! Here, duplex chains are only used on the E34 M5's and the E30 M3 and they only break when the chain is really noisy and it's stretched to buggery. The M3 chains wear to the point where they can jump teeth but by that point the thing sounds like a cement mixer.

I'm not saying they don't break of course, but 124k on a duplex M5 timing chain (provided it's quiet of course) wouldn't worry me unduly. I've seen M5 E34's with 200k and the first chain. The highest I've seen is a 3.6 with 265'000 miles and still running albeit pretty tired.
I'm assuming of course that the duplex E28 chain set up is the same as the E34?
The chain doesn't break; that's not the issue. The plastic chain guides, on the other hand, can and do break after 20 years of heat-cycling induces brittleness. Then the chain goes slack and the timing can screw up, with the predictable very nasty effects.

A very reputable mechanic in the area (King of Prussia) says it's nothing to worry about. He has raced E28 and E34 M5s for years. What I don't know is, has he ever really pushed an older motor? He keeps his hardware pretty fresh. It's like anything else, risk vs. benefit. Some people have had timing-chain guide failures that cost them large money. Others haven't seen it. So, how lucky do you feel? Given that the prevention is an eventual necessity, and is costs about 20% of the actual repair should the parts fail, it makes sense to me to do it on any S38 motor north of 20 years/120k miles or so.

-tammer

Andy in the UK is correct, they break at something around 100k miles. The chain in my M88/3 seperated at 107K and there wasn't any odd noises from the timing chain prior to it happening.

Cory,

You can probably get the parts from Steve H. for less than $1k. Then sweet talk ($$$s and a large supply of his favorite adult beverage) Biil W into HELPING YOU ( you do the wrenching, Bill sits back and drinks his beverages) with replacement of the parts. I think you could do the swap and include the Fahey hub or Steve H's clone for about $2k. This is about 20% of what a decent rebuild will set you back if the timing chain jumps.

Rich

Andyboy · Post by **Andyboy** » Jun 21, 2007 5:41 PM

107k? Ouch.

It could be worse though - you could all have a 70's - 80's Merc V8 where the duplex chains have stretched so much by 80k that they are eating into the block!
On the plus side, they're easy to change! (split link).

Steve Haygood · Post by **Steve Haygood** » Jun 21, 2007 5:43 PM

I know of an S38 that bought the farm at about 100k as well

Andyboy · Post by **Andyboy** » Jun 21, 2007 5:47 PM

Steve Haygood wrote: bought the farm

I've not heard that for years!

In truth you can kill anything with the right amount of abuse. It's a bit like the old Nikasil block thing. Some were ruined by 30k, others are still running after 200k and 15 years.

The question is this though; do you do the chain - or run the engine until something breaks and rebuild the whole thing? After 100k the rest of the engine may well need work. I guess it's personal choice but doing an S38 E28 chain is a pretty boring job.

Cory · Post by **Cory** » Jun 21, 2007 6:27 PM

Just returned from a 400 mile trip and the oil level didn't budge on the dipstick. Most of the driving was over 80mph and I pushed hard all day. Also, got several looks from hot chicks even with my wife sitting next to me and the kids in the back.
I think that the call is to wish my oil stocks well and do the whole timing chain and all, Fahey Crank Hub and a freshened up top end all at once one day. In the mean time I'll dust off my tattered copy of "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress" and beat all mechanics with it just to ensure that I get the ones that give me the wrong info.

L_N_Love · Post by **L_N_Love** » Jun 26, 2007 11:21 PM

Cory, You should bite the bullet and get it done by a reputable shop . Its like the Fram oil filter commercial... you can pay me now or pay me later. Why keep worrying about it. If it were mine I would get it done for many more miles of M5 enjoyment. Still cheaper than a Camfry

P.S. If you decide to get rid of it instead, send me a PM.

Cory · Post by **Cory** » Jun 27, 2007 12:33 AM

Much appreciated. I'd do it tomorrow, but I think I've identified my fear as concerned that someone'll f*ck it up. After a great history and some fantastic work at a few shops it runs remarkably well. It might just be that I'm a pussy and need a new car. On the other hand, this is one badass machine (which is why it's so fitting to myself). I did just go back to the original wheels (with new Bridgestone RE750's) which, in my humble opinion, are the wheels that are meant to be.
Time will tell. Thanks again.

Wiseguy · Post by **Wiseguy** » Jun 27, 2007 12:56 AM

Cory,

Like I said, your call. but, FWIW, I've bought the parts for mine and am doing it. The chances of it breaking are not imminent IMO, however, like I said, it's a ticking time bomb and it certainly CAN fail.

I suppose if we ignore it, it will break. If you bring it in, I bet I pull out brand new components. Murphy's law being what it is and all....

I'm tempted to tell you to go ahead and do it tho.. it's bugging you too much NOT to do and understandably so.

Bill

Cory · Post by **Cory** » Jun 27, 2007 7:37 AM

Thanks Bill. I very well might take you up on that. The work you've done so far is exceptional and much appreciated.

whitewalrus01 · Post by **whitewalrus01** » Jun 27, 2007 11:19 PM

I would get it done, but make sure you have someone that you could trust doing it and has done it numerous times.

cagedveal · Post by **cagedveal** » Jun 27, 2007 11:41 PM

whitewalrus01 wrote:I would get it done, but make sure you have someone that you could trust doing it and has done it numerous times.

+1 make sure you know the credentials of who is doing that job not just someone who say I have done it a million times!!!!

JayM · Post by **JayM** » Jun 28, 2007 11:22 AM

I see 100k MILES quoted as when to start worrying. What about the age of the car? My M635 (not in my hands yet - still hoping it'll get on a rail car tomorrow) has about 60k miles (95k km), but it's an '84. My worry is that the plastic guides being the problem it's more an issue of age than mileage.

Comments from the experts (Steve, Rich and Bill)?

As for getting an expert to do it, one of the shops here has done a couple of S38s. Obviously Ottawa doesn't have an overabundance of Euro spec M-cars. Should I be looking into the logistics of getting the car to the States for this? How many mechanics are there in North America that have done major work on more than a dozen or so M88/3s?

Steve Haygood · Post by **Steve Haygood** » Jun 28, 2007 11:33 AM

Correct, as much age rather than miles. Not a lot of difference other than parts from an S38 to an M88. I just finished changing an M88 over to the S38 setup, not for the faint of heart I promise. Most shops now do not have anyone with much experience on these cars as they are getting on in age, along with the folks that have worked on them

Where is the car now ?

JayM · Post by **JayM** » Jun 28, 2007 11:47 AM

It's out in Western Canada, not far from Vancouver. If all goes well it should be on the train tomorrow, and in my hands in 8-10 days.

My M5 also needs the chain done (175k km - about 112k miles). It may have been done, but all of the records are in Japanese, so I have no idea, though I doubt it as it isn't an official maintenance item. Maybe it would be a bit cheaper to get the records translated, though that would be in hope that it has been done. I baby it a little when I drive it because of that.

Oh well, I got into this with open eyes. ///M=$$Money$$. My wife isn't always so happy about it though.

Honest, this is the last one I'll buy (until I find a SA 745i....)

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