88 m5 with 67k miles...

[Jeremy]

While I do indeed have the financial means to take you up on that bet . . . I'll decline, thank you. If you're spending $7000 on an m30 motor you can achieve some great results if you know what you're doing. Ken H has already proved that with an unlimited budget very impressive numbers are indeed in the realm of possibility.

My issue comes from your statement that you're going to achieve your stated 300hp goal with merely a "mild" port and polish and 282 cam. A mild port and polish and engine overhaul with s38b38 crank (should be cheaper than offset grinding) doesn't cost 7 grand, so you obviously have more than you laid on the table in mind.

And speaking of having balls, how about YOU pay for and build one of your motor and post the results seeing as YOU'RE the one making the claims, eh?

Jeremy

[M635CSi]

Are you an engineer, or have you ever worked professionally in the automotive industry?

I grew up in a household of engineers - my dad was an engineer and pushed me into it. After the first year of college, I switched to economics and some post graduate studies which include finance and law.

In "the old days" (70's), I built hot rod/race engines for people who had too much money. Suffice it to say, automotive engineering has always fascinated me and been a love of mine.

Your knowledge of engine building is pretty impressive.

Thank you for those kind words. My post contained/contains numerous errors and was only intended as a jumping off point - not a blueprint. Most of what I know has been learned from the great minds that went before. So much of what we think is new, is old.

When I first started practicing, my firm was representing a large automotive parts division in a spin off from its parent. As part of that work, I had the opportunity to go to various parts factories, engineering facilities, and even see the company's IRL headquarters and set-up. Pretty cool stuff -- your posts remind me of the level of detail the professional engineers at these various divisions had.

People sometimes belittle details but the tragic story of the space shuttle Challenger reflects the importance detail.

Even though the parent and sub are still troubled entities, it has nothing to do with the knowledge of the engineers, trust me.

I wouldn't expect anyone to take you up on your offer. Frankly, I am not sure how an average person would even set up a letter of credit or similar.

Letters of credit are commonly used in finance. An entity can provide a standby letter of credit in place of a performance guarantee. An example of their use might be in construction; a property owner can provide a letter of credit to the builder. At each stage of construction, the builder brings the LC to the bank and upon presentation of documents, "draws down" the credit. The required documents may be evidence the foundation has been completed or the framing done.

A stand by letter of credit can be provided by the builder as comfort to the client. If the builder doesn't complete his work on time, the client uses the standby commitment to have someone else complete the work at the builder’s expense.

My job requires my drafting abstract legal documents which represent synthetic economic value to clients - not surprising you'll find me here sometimes:)

[M635CSi]

While I do indeed have the financial means to take you up on that bet . . . I'll decline, thank you. If you're spending $7000 on an m30 motor you can achieve some great results if you know what you're doing. Ken H has already proved that with an unlimited budget very impressive numbers are indeed in the realm of possibility.

Hi Jeremy, thank you for responding. My intention wasn't to spend $7,000 on an m30 engine but to have YOU spend $7,000

My issue comes from your statement that you're going to achieve your stated 300hp goal with merely a "mild" port and polish and 282 cam.

Those are your words not mine. 300hp from a daily driver M30 engine is, I believe, a respectable achievment. I never said that it would be done "with merely", but rather, that it would include. Success and failure of often found at the margain, not in the middle.

A mild port and polish and engine overhaul with s38b38 crank (should be cheaper than offset grinding) doesn't cost 7 grand, so you obviously have more than you laid on the table in mind.

That would be correct.

And speaking of having balls, how about YOU pay for and build one of your motor and post the results seeing as YOU'RE the one making the claims, eh?

No bid. I have no interest in a trade where I get nothing; building an engine to prove a point does nothing for me. At the hp numbers I quoted, I don't consider it a bet but a slam dunk. Under your offer, I build the engine and if it produces the hp, I get nothing but what I've earned - you have no risk for loss if you're proven wrong. Under my scenario, we both risk loss - seems more equitable to me. If you feel otherwise, that's OK.

What I took offence to was the post where you stated: "Quite simply, the power expections for ALL your "stages" are dreaming given the mods you list."

Without asking even what turbocharger was to be used, or the number of fuel injectors, your statement constitutes bullshit.

Not only don't those hp figures represent anything special, they've all been around in that state of tune for the last 20 years - except perhaps the M30 numbers.

Chris

[booker]

Are you an engineer, or have you ever worked professionally in the automotive industry? Your knowledge of engine building is pretty impressive.

When I first started practicing, my firm was representing a large automotive parts division in a spin off from its parent. As part of that work, I had the opportunity to go to various parts factories, engineering facilities, and even see the company's IRL headquarters and set-up. Pretty cool stuff -- your posts remind me of the level of detail the professional engineers at these various divisions had. Even though the parent and sub are still troubled entities, it has nothing to do with the knowledge of the engineers, trust me.

I wouldn't expect anyone to take you up on your offer. Frankly, I am not sure how an average person would even set up a letter of credit or similar.

Oh Gawd. You keep this up, and his head won't fit through most doors!

[rlomba8204]

Thanks for the response. I figured you had some real hands on experience at some point.

The auto engineers at the client, including the ones that work on the company's main sports car, are tremendous. Their level of knowledge was unbelievable.

Letters of credit and other financial documents representing "synthetic economic value" are indeed thrilling. I don't have the econ background that you do, but in my job (securities lawyer), I have a good sense of the level of tedium involved in some of these instruments. No wonder we both spend time browsing here.

[rlomba8204]

Booker:

I have no idea of whether you are right, but when someone knows their stuff -- my hat's off to them. Like I said, the last time I heard someone this knowledgeable, and with this level of detail, is when I spoke with guys who built motors professionally, for IRL race cars and for America's only sports car.

I have no problem admitting that someone has more knowledge than I do, and listening to what they have to say. That is the only way I learn.

[Jeremy]

Hi Jeremy, thank you for responding. My intention wasn't to spend $7,000 on an m30 engine but to have YOU spend $7,000

Yea, you want to spend my money and then take the credit. Doesn't sound l have much to gain there.

My issue comes from your statement that you're going to achieve your stated 300hp goal with merely a "mild" port and polish and 282 cam.

Those are your words not mine. 300hp from a daily driver M30 engine is, I believe, a respectable achievment. I never said that it would be done "with merely", but rather, that it would include. Success and failure of often found at the margain, not in the middle.

Ummmm, no. Straight quote from your original post, here goes:

Stage one:
3.8L M30 engine ≈300hp @ the crank:
Crankshaft: welded 84mm offset ground to 91mm
Flywheel: M5
Head: mild port intake/exhaust, combustion chambers cc’d
Injectors: 30 lb
Fuel: Avgas
Compression: 11:1
Internal Cooling: No Additional
External Cooling: Stock BMW Radiator
Cam: 282 degree schrick
Fuel/ignition control: MS
Headers: 22" equal-length

Under my scenario, we both risk loss - seems more equitable to me. If you feel otherwise, that's OK.

I really don't think you're risking too much if you have 7 grand to build an m30 and achieve 300bhp naturally aspirated. I think I'd be stupid to take that bet, quite honestly.

I think you underestimate me if you think I'll take you up on it simply cause you're calling me out.

What I took offence to was the post where you stated: "Quite simply, the power expections for ALL your "stages" are dreaming given the mods you list."

Without asking even what turbocharger was to be used, or the number of fuel injectors, your statement constitutes bullshit.

Well, now that I know you're talking forced induction for stages 2 and 3, your claims come closer to reality.

Not only don't those hp figures represent anything special, they've all been around in that state of tune for the last 20 years - except perhaps the M30 numbers.

It was the m30 claims that led me to cry BS to begin with. Since you didn't specifically list adding a turbo originally among your mods for stages 2 and 3, why would I even ask what kind or size? Now that you've cleared that up a bit, I rescind my comment on those. I still think you're dreaming for stage1 if you're staying with "mild port and polish" as YOU described. Injectors and whatnot are irrelevant in a naturally aspirated motor if it can't suck in the air required.

Jeremy

[Matt]

Whatever possibility M635 has of knowing his shit is grossly overshadowed by his .. "delivery skills", IMO. For what its worth, i've never built an engine before but i didn't see anything listed that was non-obvious. You could go to korman's website or read the archives here and come up with about the same list of "to do" items, so a list of what everyone would do to an M30 engine anyway isn't sufficient to demonstrate engineering excellence.

That said, his Stage 1 spec mentioned 11:1 pistons, high-octane fuel, big cam, bigger injectors, and headers. The injectors, at 30 pounds, are probably ok for 300hp, if you buy that the original M30 injectors were in the mid teens and were good for 180hp.

So it wasn't just a "port polish + cam", it was much higher CR and then the intake (port) and exhaust (headers) and fuel (injectors) work to go with it.

300hp out of 3.5L is not unreasonable. The S38B35 euro made 286 hp on lower than 11:1 CR (10.2 or 10.5?). If you can make the M30 flow like the S38 (i doubt it) and get the redline of the M30 near the S38s (probably), 300hp is not strictly impossible.

That said, there is no specification of new redline, and I'd guess that grossly increasing the redline on the M30 requires other changes not mentioned. I think the big issue will be making the M30 flow like the S38 euro.

I don't know much about cam measuring, but 282 would make it more aggressive than any S38 cam (248, 264, and 272 were factory cams, IIRC, for various S38 iterations. A 280 is also available, but i think that is Schrick). however, along with that aggressive cam there is no mention of lift or spring changes, which i think would be necessary.

The other 2 engines should have been obviously turbos due to the lowered static CR and speccing of turbo manifolds.

[rlomba8204]

I am not going to disagree that M635 certainly doesn't mind stepping on some toes. But that doesn't much matter to me -- for friendship and loyalty, I have my dog.


That being said, reminders to be polite and civil are always in order.

Regarding your take on the motors, you probably know more about engine building than most, but I would respectfully suggest (as this certainly applies to me) that there is a difference between reading about and tinkering with cars and getting into the level of expertise where you actually build motors. My post came from the fact that this dude has actually built high performance motors. I have not. I have simply repaired cars, and done some relatively simple modifications to my old car. So with respect to M635, he has a completely different, and more advanced, level of expertise than I have. Because of his delivery, however, at times I think some folks here allow that knowledge to get under their skin, and then they try to argue with him, when the dude obviously knows his sh_t. So, all I am saying, I choose to learn from him, and all of the rest of the knowledgeable crew here.

[M635CSi]

Hi Jeremy, thank you for responding. My intention wasn't to spend $7,000 on an m30 engine but to have YOU spend $7,000

Yea, you want to spend my money and then take the credit. Doesn't sound l have much to gain there.

Once again, you don't get the concept. You don't spend a cent UNLESS, you're wrong. I fund the engine build, transportation, etc. You're the one who said it couldn't be done without even knowing what was being done! So, I said bring it on, I'll take that bet and if I'm wrong, I'll cover my mistake and if you're wrong you cover yours. You pay nothing unless you're wrong. Going into it the intention is having you spend the money at the back-end because I know what's going into the engine and I know the power it makes. You made your comment without enough information to make the statement you did - you didn't ask for additional information.

that

My issue comes from your statement that you're going to achieve your stated 300hp goal with merely a "mild" port and polish and 282 cam.

Those are your words not mine. 300hp from a daily driver M30 engine is, I believe, a respectable achievement. I never said that it would be done "with merely", but rather, that it would include. Success and failure of often found at the margin, not in the middle.

Ummmm, no. Straight quote from your original post, here goes:

Stage one:
3.8L M30 engine ≈300hp @ the crank:
Crankshaft: welded 84mm offset ground to 91mm
Flywheel: M5
Head: mild port intake/exhaust, combustion chambers cc’d
Injectors: 30 lb
Fuel: Avgas
Compression: 11:1
Internal Cooling: No Additional
External Cooling: Stock BMW Radiator
Cam: 282 degree schrick
Fuel/ignition control: MS
Headers: 22" equal-length

And your point is?

The list is obviously not complete as anyone who knows how to get the hood up on a car knows there'll be other parts. This is a list of parts it would include. Are you suggesting that because no spark plugs are listed that under your characterization they wouldn't be allowed in the engine?

Under my scenario, we both risk loss - seems more equitable to me. If you feel otherwise, that's OK.

I really don't think you're risking too much if you have 7 grand to build an m30 and achieve 300bhp naturally aspirated. I think I'd be stupid to take that bet, quite honestly.

The $7,000 isn't what I "have to build an m30 and achieve 300hp" the $7,000 is what you lose when it does.

I agree you'd be stupid to take the offer but your original comment sounded stupid enough that you might just go for it~

I think you underestimate me if you think I'll take you up on it simply because you're calling me out.

Oh no, I didn't think for a moment you would take me up on it. I was sure you would back down once you realized what you would be in for. It’s not so much that I underestimate you but that I had originally overestimated you. I didn't think for a moment you wouldn't know instantly that a low compression M30 with a 745 exhaust manifold mounted and a stated horsepower of 400 wasn't a turbo engine - I overestimated you.

What I took offence to was the post where you stated: "Quite simply, the power expections for ALL your "stages" are dreaming given the mods you list."

Without asking what turbocharger was to be used, or the number of fuel injectors, your statement constitutes bullshit.

Well, now that I know you're talking forced induction for stages 2 and 3, your claims come closer to reality.

But what's sad is that you didn't know that without being told...

Not only don't those hp figures represent anything special, they've all been around in that state of tune for the last 20 years - except perhaps the M30 numbers.

It was the m30 claims that led me to cry BS to begin with.

Will you stop crying if I share with you how it’s done?

Since you didn't specifically list adding a turbo originally among your mods for stages 2 and 3, why would I even ask what kind or size?

You wouldn't unless you knew the first thing about engine design. In which case, it would have been obvious.
I didn't "didn't specifically list adding" spark plugs also, do I need to tell you they'll be there?

Now that you've cleared that up a bit, I rescind my comment on those. I still think you're dreaming for stage1 if you're staying with "mild port and polish" as YOU described. Injectors and whatnot are irrelevant in a naturally aspirated motor if it can't suck in the air required.

That's the difference between us Jeremy, you think I'm dreaming but I know you're clueless. And I have the balls to put my money where my mouth is whereas you don't, or perhaps you just don't have any money...

[Adam W in MN]

Boy, this has rather entertainingly careened off-topic. Now we need a new emoticon/smiley that shows a guy veering off-course into a brick wall labeled "OFF-TOPIC".

This one do for now though

Carry on, gentlemen.

[M635CSi]

Whatever possibility M635 has of knowing his shit is grossly overshadowed by his .. "delivery skills", IMO. For what its worth, i've never built an engine before but i didn't see
anything listed that was non-obvious.

Matt, the fact that you've never built an engine puts you in the spectator category, wouldn't you say?

You could go to korman's website or read the archives here and come up with about the same list of "to do" items, so a list of what everyone would do to an M30 engine anyway isn't sufficient to demonstrate engineering excellence.

You're such a wanker!

If you knew the first thing about engines you'd see how silly you sound. Yep, everyone's engines are the same. Nothin original here, pistons, cam, crankshaft - they all have em!
.
As a point of reference, the question; how "I" would make a faster E28 can only be answered by me. That answer can be neither "right" nor "wrong" for it is based entirely on my philosophy of engine design.

If you had ever studied engine design you could have asked intelligent questions. Instead, you didn't ask questions because you didn't know what to ask - your education in automotive engineering came from the parts catalogs of local auto stores.

If it seems I have an "attitude", perhaps it’s just that I value my expertise and don't feel the need to share with people who don't.

[dwike]

I had no idea my questions could cause such educated banter, how fun. I think I'm going to like this crowd.

As far as the car goes...

1. original owner
2. absolutely no records...(oil changes or anything), crap! The only records are the stickers on the inside of the driver's door indicating oil changes which were done regularly, (as regularly as 3700 miles a year dictates) I've talked with the guy that has serviced the car the last few years, and I feel confident that oil changes have been done, and the compression numbers seem to somewhat support that. This was the owner's first BMW and he isn't much of a car guy and supposedly didn't see the value of retaining the records. I know....YEAH WHATEVER...
3. PPI, pictures (exterior, interior, and tons of high res underneath taken by request), and compression test yeild strong results with compression being 175, 179,180,175, 175,184 and the car is beautiful! Few scratches here and there, crack in the front lower air dam, but really looks like at least an 8 out of 10 (in my opinion)

So, I think it's pretty fair at $13k. Opinions welcome.

Pics here:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictu ... 2102614776

[grahamular]

Looks impressive based on the pictures, although in my opinion some service records would certainly help support the asking price and future resale value--any clues at all on where it might have been serviced, assuming it wasn't owner-serviced? If so, the shop may be familiar with the car and at be able to provide some history.

[rlomba8204]

The absolutely no records part really gives me pause. I have no concrete evidence, just my experience. Here's my reasoning, and what I would do, fwiw.

The reason I am uncomfortable has to do with the fact that these cars are generally owned by enthusiasts. These folks are acutely aware that maintaining and documenting a car's service history ensures its value, and is part of the "collectibility" aspect of the car. With that low mileage especially, this car has some value (assuming it's legit) and to not document the service history seems unusual to me.

With respect to a solution, I am not saying you definitely shouldn't go forward. We all have different takes on these things. But if it were me, I would insist on having the car checked by a BMW only shop, a real specialist who has been in business a while. The car should be checked thoroughly. I would also have the car checked by a reputable body shop. Why have any suprises when you are paying good money for the car? It should cost you say $150 -- one hour at the BMW shop, maybe a little more, and probably half an hour at the body shop -- body guys can tell immediately, or at least very soon, if the car has had any major work. If the owner balks, well, to me, that means they have something to hide.

Just so you don't think I am crazy, when I bought my current 535 used in the spring, the owner allowed me to take the car overnight, bring it the next morning to my shop, and return with a check. Now we know each other professionally, but only on the most casual sense, but the guy knew that (a) he had a good car; and (b) I had the money for the car, so why not cooperate with reasonable due diligence?

Good luck. Let us know how it turns out. Also, feel free to ask for good shops in your neck of the woods if you don't know any.

[Matt]

Whatever possibility M635 has of knowing his shit is grossly overshadowed by his .. "delivery skills", IMO. For what its worth, i've never built an engine before but i didn't see
anything listed that was non-obvious.

Matt, the fact that you've never built an engine puts you in the spectator category, wouldn't you say?

Congratulations, brain surgeon. What does my category have to do with anything? I've never represented myself as being either a relative or absolute authority on any subject related to engines.

You could go to korman's website or read the archives here and come up with about the same list of "to do" items, so a list of what everyone would do to an M30 engine anyway isn't sufficient to demonstrate engineering excellence.

You're such a wanker!

If you knew the first thing about engines you'd see how silly you sound. Yep, everyone's engines are the same. Nothin original here, pistons, cam, crankshaft - they all have em!

Really? What was silly about that? I looked at your M30 build up and it looked like every other build up list on every other NA engine - higher CR, better breathing, non-street gas. Woo, you've demonstrated mastery of engine design with your seminal post. Where do i get inline to worship your internet greatness?

As a point of reference, the question; how "I" would make a faster E28 can only be answered by me. That answer can be neither "right" nor "wrong" for it is based entirely on my philosophy of engine design.

Philosophy 101 called. You failed, and nobody gives a fuck.

If you had ever studied engine design you could have asked intelligent questions. Instead, you didn't ask questions because you didn't know what to ask - your education in automotive engineering came from the parts catalogs of local auto stores.

Or, i didn't ask questions because every fucking interactino with you turns out about like this - condescension, hand waving, nothing of factual relevance, and a fucked up attitude.

If it seems I have an "attitude", perhaps it’s just that I value my expertise and don't feel the need to share with people who don't.

I don't get you at all. There are plenty of people that want to hear what you have to say if you'd phrase what you had to say as "here's what i think and why" instead of "here's what i said, shut up and listen because i am GOD"

I work with a ton of people who are goddamn fucking genuises, who are a ton smarter than I, and they all have one thing in common. When i challenge them because I don't immediately accept what they're saying as gospel, they explain why i am wrong succinctly and without prejudice in a way that I can understand. That's what genius is, and that's knowledge that is worthy of respect.

So get over yourself and leave your bullshit at the door.

[rlomba8204]

In fairness to M635, I believe that this all started when he offered his observations on what makes an M car special, and I don't think his post was meant to insult. I certainly didn't read it that way. I would characterize it as an observation on the psychology of economics of sorts. He then get zinged by Tammer. I don't think he responded.

Things really got good when we got to motor specs. When M635 offered motor building specs, Jeremy and Shawn D., both of whom I've learned a great deal from, starting criticizing for water injection and mild port and polish, etc., and they didn't really hold back. (We were already beyond my knowledge level here, I will admit.) Then M635 responds, pretty politely. When Jeremy says "you can't" to M635, and he responds by issuing his challenge, people want to act insulted and suprised. When you play football, you will get tackled.

Then, when I paid a compliment to his knowledge of engine building, which certainly didn't seem to strike me as something he cribbed off an internet list, a couple of folks seemed to want to take issue with my complimenting him on his knowledge. That's fine, it is a free country. But, only then did he deliver some real zingers.

If you go back and read the thread through, I think that's a fair reading. I think M635 does provide a lot of good information, and did not start flaming here until he was provoked. So, from the perspective of someone who appreciates the contributions of Jeremy, Shawn D., and others, why don't we focus on learning new things, and talking about the cars, then zinging each other? And M635, take it easy on the responses too.

I am certainly not one to criticize, as I have done my share of juvenile flaming, but let's get back to helping this fellow decide on the M5.

[M635CSi]

I had no idea my questions could cause such educated banter, how fun. I think I'm going to like this crowd.

As far as the car goes...

1. original owner

I've never understood why this matters but it feels good when we get things from the original owners.

2. absolutely no records...(oil changes or anything), crap!

Like buying from the original owner, full records feel good to have. A thorough inspection can reveal everything you need to know. If the car was well cared for, the lack of records may even give you a chip with which to negotiate.

3. PPI, pictures (exterior, interior, and tons of high res underneath taken by request), and compression test yeild strong results with compression being 175, 179,180,175, 175,184 and the car is beautiful! Few scratches here and there, crack in the front lower air dam, but really looks like at least an 8 out of 10 (in my opinion)

Your money=your opinion - its the only one that counts. The car looks great in the pictures.

So, I think it's pretty fair at $13k. Opinions welcome.

Pics here:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictu ... 2102614776

$13,000 isn't a lot of money to spend for a car in good shape with a lot of life left. I say if it make you happy, go for it!

[Tammer in Philly]

I've never understood why this matters but it feels good when we get things from the original owners.

I think, with something at the age of our cars, one owner generally equals a cared-for car. Most folks don't keep something for 18 years if they don't like it, and most folks take good care of the things they like. Also, if you're dealing with someone you feel is a trustworthy seller, a multi-owner car always has the specter of a past owner that mishandled or misrepresented the car. This is why an inspection is especially vital; there's a chance of an honest, non-gearhead seller not knowing just how crappy his own car is.

Like buying from the original owner, full records feel good to have. A thorough inspection can reveal everything you need to know. If the car was well cared for, the lack of records may even give you a chip with which to negotiate.

True, but I like being able to go back and say "Ah, these fuel lines were replaced in 1997; I should probably think about addressing those again soon." I find myself perusing service records that came with my car often and using them as an indication of what areas may require more than the usual scrutiny. Just nice info to have, though not essential.

$13,000 isn't a lot of money to spend for a car in good shape with a lot of life left. I say if it make you happy, go for it!

Agreed. Glad the engine seems healthy. Verify the body is original and straight, check tire wear and such for signs of tweaked alignment, be especially aware of rubber deterioration (hoses: coolant, fuel, brakes, clutch; suspension bushings; door/window seals), set your price, bargain, and enjoy. :-)

-tammer

[Shawn D.]

In fairness to M635, I believe that this all started when he offered his observations on what makes an M car special, and I don't think his post was meant to insult.

He always insults any E28 that anyone else thinks is special or noteworthy, based on his position on the fact that it shares the same body as a 518i did. Look back through the post and the thread I referenced and his attitude will be evident.

When M635 offered motor building specs…Shawn D… starting criticizing for water injection…

WRONG. I did not criticize him for water injection. In fact, I think water injection can certainly be beneficial if used for the right rationale. What I said was:

BTW, water injection isn't for "cooling."

Then he said:

Shawn, water injection is so "for cooling." Engines can and have been run under load for hours without ANY external (water/radiator) cooling.

The first part is a simple schoolyard taunt (“Is so!”) and the second part is bullshit. Now, M635Csi did indeed come up with a source showing experimental results that it does provide cooling – he certainly proved me wrong on that. However, I stand by my statement because the overwhelming historical purpose of it isn’t for cooling even if it does provide cooling. These particular experimental results aside, I have never seen any evidence of it being used operationally with the main purpose being the provision of engine cooling. He certainly provided no evidence of his claim that it has ever been used as the primary (or only) cooling source.

M635Csi, your proposal to Jeremy is one of the most absurd things I’ve ever seen on this board. The premise that he must put up $$$$$ to prove his confidence, and that by him not doing so means you automatically become right and he becomes wrong is asinine.

[Jeremy]

OK, so you have experience engine building. IRL even. It's an impressive resume, I'll admit. But then, KC Ron had a fairly impressive resume as well . . . at least he claimed to.

Here's my beef with your claims. With only mild (once again, I'm not putting any words in your mouth, YOU said it) work on the intake and exhaust ports, you're not getting 300hp out of a naturally aspirated m30 no matter what other tricks you include, unless one of those tricks is nitrous oxide, and I'm sure you would've listed that if you intended to use it. As soon as you get the m30 head on a flow bench you'll see. It simply won't flow that much air without a lot work!

For some evidence of this, let's look at some real life experience. Duke's motor is a good one since many are familiar with it. Now, I don't consider the porting done by Hartge to be "mild", but for the sake of argument, I'll term it that here. Duke did some more work to the head, and with 10:1 compression and a 282 cam, he achieved ~220whp, or 260bhp. Personally, I don't think that a 1 point compression bump, standalone, and AVgas is going to give you that extra 40hp you're looking for.

I'd be perfectly willing to take the bet if I could somehow be assured that you'd keep that port work mild, as you claimed. That means that gasket matching is out, cause that's a serious amount of material coming off. Basically, I can't be assured that you'd stay honest, so I'm not taking the bait because I know that with a good machinist doing a lot of port work, 300bhp is perfectly achievable given your other parameters (racing fuel, standalone, etc).

Truth of matter is, I shake my head nearly every time somebody says that the m30 "can't do ______" in terms of creating power. It's a very strong motor. It just takes work, quite a bit of good quality work at that, to achieve lofty goals, and you've come out with a very high goal for a naturally aspirated m30.

I don't think 300bhp is unattainable, I just think it's going to take a lot more basic work than what you've described.

Here's a question for you, and this is an honest one. Why do all your engines involve AVgas? Granted, the octane is higher, which allows for more aggressive timing and higher static compression, but availability is limited at best. Even if you have connections locally, you won't be able to drive the car farther than half your range away from there! I'd much rather have a car that I could fill up anywhere, so your reasoning behind that would interest me. I mean, if we're talking a track only motor here, why not CAM2? Why a 282 and not a 292 or 300 degree duration cam?

Jeremy

[M635CSi]

Whatever possibility M635 has of knowing his shit is grossly overshadowed by his .. "delivery skills", IMO. For what its worth, i've never built an engine before but i didn't see
anything listed that was non-obvious.

Matt, the fact that you've never built an engine puts you in the spectator category, wouldn't you say?

Congratulations, brain surgeon. What does my category have to do with anything? I've never represented myself as being either a relative or absolute authority on any subject related to engines.

Matt, we are all each others teachers...

You could go to korman's website or read the archives here and come up with about the same list of "to do" items, so a list of what everyone would do to an M30 engine anyway isn't sufficient to demonstrate engineering excellence.

You're such a wanker!

If you knew the first thing about engines you'd see how silly you sound. Yep, everyone's engines are the same. Nothin original here, pistons, cam, crankshaft - they all have em!

Really? What was silly about that? I looked at your M30 build up and it looked like every other build up list on every other NA engine - higher CR, better breathing, non-street gas.

You looked, but you did not see. When you looked at what I had written, you were semiconscious. As you continue to learn, your senses will quicken. It doesn't matter who builds the engine whether its GM, BMW or Frank down on the corner. Engine power is a function of brake mean effective pressure (BMEP); no cylinder pressure; no torque, high cylinder pressure; high torque.

There are a limited number of ways to increase BMEP. Some of which are; changing to a higher compression ratio (sometimes), increasing the stroke, improved breathing and volumetric efficiency. There are also a number of ways to move the torque curve around; lengthening the connecting rod moves the torque to the right, or higher in the RPM range. Lengthening the intake tract will have the oposite effect and increase the torque at low RPM.

If you were expecting to find some secret to unlocking the power in the M30 engine, reading my post wasn't the way to do it. That's what was silly.

Thoughts produce desires, desires produce motives and motives produce actions. Engineers whos thoughts are on low RPM torque, design engines with short connecting rods, long intake runners and low valve spring pressure. Engineers who want an engine to go 13,000 RPM, look in the oposite directions. So it is written, so it shall be done...

Woo, you've demonstrated mastery of engine design with your seminal post.

Apparently not enough.

Where do i get inline to worship your internet greatness?

I am only accepting female supplicants at this time

As a point of reference, the question; how "I" would make a faster E28 can only be answered by me. That answer can be neither "right" nor "wrong" for it is based entirely on my philosophy of engine design.

Philosophy 101 called. You failed, and nobody gives a fuck.

Again, your comments fall short of logical argument.

If you had ever studied engine design you could have asked intelligent questions. Instead, you didn't ask questions because you didn't know what to ask - your education in automotive engineering came from the parts catalogs of local auto stores.

Or, i didn't ask questions because every fucking interactino with you turns out about like this - condescension, hand waving, nothing of factual relevance, and a fucked up attitude.

When the student is ready, the teacher will appear...

If it seems I have an "attitude", perhaps it’s just that I value my expertise and don't feel the need to share with people who don't.

I don't get you at all. There are plenty of people that want to hear what you have to say if you'd phrase what you had to say as "here's what i think and why" instead of "here's what i said, shut up and listen because i am GOD"

There was once a executive trainer who wanted to go around the country and give seminars. He wanted to teach CEOs how to "listen" and "relate". After six months, the "executive trainer" gave up. He finally found the reason for his failure; CEOs don't get paid to listen, they get paid to talk.

I work with a ton of people who are goddamn fucking genuises, who are a ton smarter than I, and they all have one thing in common. When i challenge them because I don't immediately accept what they're saying as gospel, they explain why i am wrong succinctly and without prejudice in a way that I can understand.

Sounds like a wonderful place to work.

I That's what genius is, and that's knowledge that is worthy of respect.

Bullshit, There are many kinds of genius.

So get over yourself and leave your bullshit at the door.

Stop being silly.

[rlomba8204]

I think you took my post the wrong way. I am not trying to cast blame. Quite the opposite -- just trying to offer a way we can exchange knowledge and leave out the insults. In my view your post, and M635's response, were a bit sharp. But if you disagree, you disagree, there's nothing else to say. Just some thoughts on your observations:

Regarding the e28's being special, there's obviously some history there of which I am not aware. I saw your quote, but I am not sure if there's other stuff out there. My response is why do you care? Moreover, his post in the instant thread, well, I didn't take it as an insult (that doesn't mean a reasonable person couldn't -- it's just my take.) Moreover, he certainly hasn't insulted the fellow who is looking to buy an M5. If his board name is any indication, he owns an M635csi, so I think he likes M cars and doesn't think they're worthless or worth the same as a 518 (which I have actually driven by the way -- "leisurely" would be a good way to describe the acceleration). Also, for sake of levity, note that I use the term "worth" in a conventional, laymen's sense.

Regarding the water injection, my error results from my technical ignorance of the subject. You did correct him, however, and you didn't do it "softly." That being said, I don't want to take sides here, really. My interest is in encouraging a good exchange, sans the insults. Regarding your quote of M635, I didn't read it as a taunt. He corrected your statement. Again, frankly, both of you were being pretty sharp.

I am not going to comment on the "proposal." Suffice it to say, maybe we need to have a boxing ring at the next 5erFest, or to add some levity into the discussion and use your analogy, you and he could meet outside after school.

Don't take my response as criticism. I just wanted to clarify some issues for you, as I think you may have taken my post the wrong way. I have learned a great deal by reading your posts, as you know a tremendous amount about e28s, and that cool give and take gets lost if we just start zinging each other.

[Rich Euro M5]

Here's a question for you, and this is an honest one. Why do all your engines involve AVgas? Granted, the octane is higher

Jeremy,

I wouldn't run Avgas in any street engine for a number of reasons. The biggest issue is lead, it will kill your catalytic convertor and there's the minor problem of it being illegal.

The average Joe can't get Avgas. You have to have a N number and you'll raise eyebrows at the airport filling up gas cans. The only way you can get Avgas is through a connection.

Finally, it's not that much higher in octane, there are two readily available octane rating 87 and 100LL. Forget the 120/130 octane stuff they use at Reno in the unlimited racers, you won't find it anywhere. And now that the military isn't operating reciprocating engines that utilize the high octane avgas, it won't be around much longer.

Basically if you need 100 octane gasoline, buy racing fuel or use a octane booster like toluene.

Rich

[M635CSi]

In fairness to M635, I believe that this all started when he offered his observations on what makes an M car special, and I don't think his post was meant to insult.

He always insults any E28 that anyone else thinks is special or noteworthy, based on his position on the fact that it shares the same body as a 518i did. Look back through the post and the thread I referenced and his attitude will be evident.

When M635 offered motor building specs…Shawn D… starting criticizing for water injection…

WRONG. I did not criticize him for water injection. In fact, I think water injection can certainly be beneficial if used for the right rationale. What I said was:

BTW, water injection isn't for "cooling."

Then he said:

Shawn, water injection is so "for cooling." Engines can and have been run under load for hours without ANY external (water/radiator) cooling.

The first part is a simple schoolyard taunt (“Is so!”) and the second part is bullshit. Now, M635Csi did indeed come up with a source showing experimental results that it does provide cooling – he certainly proved me wrong on that. However, I stand by my statement because the overwhelming historical purpose of it isn’t for cooling even if it does provide cooling. These particular experimental results aside, I have never seen any evidence of it being used operationally with the main purpose being the provision of engine cooling. He certainly provided no evidence of his claim that it has ever been used as the primary (or only) cooling source.

M635Csi, your proposal to Jeremy is one of the most absurd things I’ve ever seen on this board. The premise that he must put up $$$$$ to prove his confidence, and that by him not doing so means you automatically become right and he becomes wrong is asinine.

Shawn, I'm trying to be nice, I really am. I'm just not real good at it. It just seems curious why you keep picking arguments? As as far as me taunting you, no. "The is so" was meant as "is soooooo for cooling", perhaps I could have been clearer.

You asked how I would build a faster e28. I told you how I would do it. Then, you tell me that water injected into the cylinder isn't used for cooling when that is exactly what I was using it for!

Now I'm sure you have you're own ideas of what you and your friends think water injection is or isn't, should or shouldn't be used for, and if I ever care, I'll be sure to ask. Until then, try grasping the concept that the person closest to an action is in the best position to know the purpose of that action. The water injection on those engines is there FOR COOLING - that's why its there Shawn, like it or not, its there to internally cool the engine.

As far as me insulting E28s, it might be well to remember I own one and am a member of this board to learn more. And because I own an e28; I have the right to insult them.

[M635CSi]

Here's a question for you, and this is an honest one. Why do all your engines involve AVgas? Granted, the octane is higher

Jeremy,

I wouldn't run Avgas in any street engine for a number of reasons. The biggest issue is lead, it will kill your catalytic convertor and there's the minor problem of it being illegal.

The average Joe can't get Avgas. You have to have a N number and you'll raise eyebrows at the airport filling up gas cans. The only way you can get Avgas is through a connection.

Finally, it's not that much higher in octane, there are two readily available octane rating 87 and 100LL. Forget the 120/130 octane stuff they use at Reno in the unlimited racers, you won't find it anywhere. And now that the military isn't operating reciprocating engines that utilize the high octane avgas, it won't be around much longer.

Basically if you need 100 octane gasoline, buy racing fuel or use a octane booster like toluene.

Rich

Rich, you make some good points. The biggest if which for me is the continued availability. I think people are mistaking what I would do with my car, with what they should do with their car.

A compression ratio of 11.0:1 is too high for people to run in the M30 engine and drive the car every day. It would be great to build an engine and play around with toluene but thats not going to happen.

[M635CSi]

Here's my beef with your claims. With only mild (once again, I'm not putting any words in your mouth, YOU said it) work on the intake and exhaust ports, you're not getting 300hp out of a naturally aspirated m30 no matter what other tricks you include, unless one of those tricks is nitrous oxide, and I'm sure you would've listed that if you intended to use it. As soon as you get the m30 head on a flow bench you'll see. It simply won't flow that much air without a lot work!

I consider "mild" to be anything that doesn't require welding. Once you hit water or need to weld the head because you've got daylight, that ain't mild.

No nitrous.

For some evidence of this, let's look at some real life experience. Duke's motor is a good one since many are familiar with it. Now, I don't consider the porting done by Hartge to be "mild", but for the sake of argument, I'll term it that here. Duke did some more work to the head, and with 10:1 compression and a 282 cam, he achieved ~220whp, or 260bhp. Personally, I don't think that a 1 point compression bump, standalone, and AVgas is going to give you that extra 40hp you're looking for.

Hmmm, not sure what you're saying. I don't have Duke's engine. I didn't build the engine in Duke's car. I know nothing about why it did or did not make power other than it's basic configuration. I would guess a bump to 11:1 would have given him maybe five or ten more horsepower and the AvGas not much different than any other if the octane is there.

I'd be perfectly willing to take the bet if I could somehow be assured that you'd keep that port work mild, as you claimed. That means that gasket matching is out, cause that's a serious amount of material coming off.

No Jeremy, that's what mild means to you. To me, it means not getting wet or breaking through to the outside. I would say you haven't ported the head if you haven't done "port matching".

Basically, I can't be assured that you'd stay honest,

Or even that I'd start that way

so I'm not taking the bait because I know that with a good machinist doing a lot of port work, 300bhp is perfectly achievable given your other parameters (racing fuel, standalone, etc).

Killjoy

The purpose of the post-dyno tear down audit is to confirm the engine meets the specifications listed.

The offer wasn't meant as bait but rather a reality check not to mess with Grandpa. As an example, recently a friend of mine, to whom I sold my '69 SS396 Chevelle, wanted to go to a car show. He called up and asked if I wanted to go so I said sure. It was fun, but when everyone started rolling out, some young guy in an '03 supercharged Mustang pulled up next to us at a light. Oh boy... well, I wasn't driving and it wasn't my decision to race this guy. The light changed, and they were at it like a couple of kids in the schoolyard. When it was over, the other guy was upset and accused my friend of "cheating" and said "oh, that's why, you've got street slicks - duh yeah, and a 496 Brodix headed big block. He said his car had gone 11.02 before he changed the gearing. Had he asked what that shinny black 37 year old General Motors "shitbox" was running, he would have known his pusstang wasn't going to beat it. The point is, when someone makes a statement with which you disagree, make sure you have ALL the facts before you say it can't be done or they're dreaming.

Truth of matter is, I shake my head nearly every time somebody says that the m30 "can't do ______" in terms of creating power. It's a very strong motor. It just takes work, quite a bit of good quality work at that, to achieve lofty goals, and you've come out with a very high goal for a naturally aspirated m30.

Oh I think lofty is 375hp or 400hp but that wouldn't be much fun on the street.

I don't think 300bhp is unattainable, I just think it's going to take a lot more basic work than what you've described.

This isn't bracket racing. It doesn't matter how we get there.
The engine would be as described; the wild cards bolt on...

Here's a question for you, and this is an honest one.

I expect that of all your questions

Why do all your engines involve AVgas?

Because its there...

Granted, the octane is higher, which allows for more aggressive timing and higher static compression, but availability is limited at best. Even if you have connections locally, you won't be able to drive the car farther than half your range away from there! I'd much rather have a car that I could fill up anywhere, so your reasoning behind that would interest me. I mean, if we're talking a track only motor here, why not CAM2? Why a 282 and not a 292 or 300 degree duration cam?
Jeremy

Those are good questions Jeremy. So please understand these answers apply to me and are not meant to be recommendations for others. First, I have no desire to drive my cars; none. The issue of range, is, a non-issue. If I have anywhere to go, I'm having a car come and get me. The only thing I want a car for is recreation; to look at and enjoy. If the car has a range of 100 miles, that's fine for me.

A "track motor" holds no appeal to me - they're no fun to drive on a regular basis... I want what BMW should have built to begin with; a 600HP M635CSi and a 300>400HP 535i both of these cars have a lot of creature comfort.

Here's why: First, as much as I like the 535, it’s not threatening; people don't go "gunning" for it. A little help to keep up with the times is all it needs - the original HPx2. Hence, a 300HP NA engine or a 400HP turbo. The M635CSi needs more help because BMW was supposed to have put a 375HP base engine in the car back in '85 and forgot.

The airport is close and it’s easy to roll up in a van with a couple of 55 gallon drums in the back. I don't have to bring my car. Every engine I've run on AvGas is just sweet. It’s smooth and even. I'm sure CAM2 is great stuff though.

[M635CSi]

M635Csi, your proposal to Jeremy is one of the most absurd things I’ve ever seen on this board. The premise that he must put up $$$$$ to prove his confidence,

Oh, once again you’re wrong. Jeremy wasn’t asked to put up a cent to prove his confidence. The premise was that Jeremy must put up $$$$$ IF his statement is proven false. In fact, I said the engine won’t cost him a cent to have me build. What was asked was that he put up proof of his financial capacity and commitment to pay when and only when his statement is shown false. For the record, a standby funding commitment such as a financial guarantee or standby letter of credit is worthless without the condition precedent. In this case, the condition precedent is a 300HP, 400HP, or 600HP dyno chart and notarized statement of audit representing the engine is as specified. Without that documentation, there are no dollars. Only if after he is shown wrong does he have to put up dollars, not if he is right…The financial guarantee is what is takes to get in the sandbox, not what it costs to play. It doesn’t cost a penny to play and win, it just costs $7,000, $14,000 or $21,000 to you play and lose.

and that by him not doing so means you automatically become right and he becomes wrong is asinine.

It doesn't mean I "automatically become right and he becomes wrong" What is does, is call into question why someone strong in their convictions and sure of their knowledge would walk away from getting two sure things they want:

1) Proof of their convictions are true, and
2) A nice fresh M30 BMW engine for free

It suggests Jeremy doesn't have confidence in what he has said - that I won’t deliver. Why should he? In fairness to Jeremy, he's a young guy with limited or perhaps no engine building experience. Most of what he knows about engine building is I am sure, anecdotal. He is wise not to risk his money extrapolating what others have said can be done to what someone he does not know can or cannot do. The “proposal” was a friendly way of illustrating a life lesson; don’t make statements you’re not willing to defend. The post shows horsepower figures of; ≈ 300HP, ≈ 400HP and ≈ 600HP. As I’m sure you are aware, “≈” is the math symbol for “approximately equal to”. Dyno reading of 294HP, 392HP, and 588HP would most certainly be OK to represent as ≈ 300HP, ≈ 400HP, and ≈ 600HP. As you may know, 3.8 NA M30 BMW engines with somewhat lesser configurations have already been to 290HP on the dyno.

As to your statements that water injected into an engine is not “for” or can not be used "for" cooling, I’m surprised at you. With the tremendous heat capacity of water, it’s a wonder you need "proof" running it through an engine will cool the engine. Once you know how much water is being injected and the timing, the rest is a given. Why do you believe running water through the outside of an engine (external cooling) cools but running water through the inside of an engine (internal cooling) does not?

At least you didn’t ask for "proof" AvGas is flammable...

[Shawn D.]

As to your statements that water injected into an engine is not “for” or can not be used "for" cooling, I’m surprised at you. With the tremendous heat capacity of water, it’s a wonder you need "proof" running it through an engine will cool the engine. Once you know how much water is being injected and the timing, the rest is a given. Why do you believe running water through the outside of an engine (external cooling) cools but running water through the inside of an engine (internal cooling) does not?

At least you didn’t ask for "proof" AvGas is flammable...

Apparently, you didn't catch the part of this post where I said:

M635Csi did indeed come up with a source showing experimental results that it does provide cooling – he certainly proved me wrong on that.

I admitted that you were right and I was wrong. Got it?

As to your statement "Why do you believe running water through the outside of an engine (external cooling) cools but running water through the inside of an engine (internal cooling) does not?," your method of argument reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon where a co-worker says "... and it will be run by a battery... ," Dilbert replies with "There are no batteries that can do that," and the co-worker replies with "How can you say there are no such things as batteries?" Dilbert then asks why she always makes his replies into absurd absolutes. Yes, I know about the "tremendous heat capacity of water," but I still do not believe you can use water injection as the sole source of engine cooling, so your "external" vs. "internal" argument is one of those absurd absolutes. I seriously doubt you'd be running water injection at the same flow rate you'd be running the internal cooling.

[M635CSi]

As to your statements that water injected into an engine is not “for” or can not be used "for" cooling, I’m surprised at you. With the tremendous heat capacity of water, it’s a wonder you need "proof" running it through an engine will cool the engine. Once you know how much water is being injected and the timing, the rest is a given. Why do you believe running water through the outside of an engine (external cooling) cools but running water through the inside of an engine (internal cooling) does not?

At least you didn’t ask for "proof" AvGas is flammable...

Apparently, you didn't catch the part of this post where I said:

M635Csi did indeed come up with a source showing experimental results that it does provide cooling – he certainly proved me wrong on that.

I admitted that you were right and I was wrong. Got it?

I got it the first time. Now, why does it matter? Why does it matter who is right and who’s wrong? What matters, is that we share knowledge and contribute. On this board, you share a ton of knowledge and contribute in spades.

As to your statement "Why do you believe running water through the outside of an engine (external cooling) cools but running water through the inside of an engine (internal cooling) does not?," your method of argument reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon where a co-worker says "... and it will be run by a battery... ," Dilbert replies with "There are no batteries that can do that," and the co-worker replies with "How can you say there are no such things as batteries?" Dilbert then asks why she always makes his replies into absurd absolutes.

I Like Dilbert so allow me to paraphrase:

ShawnD: "Well, how would you build a faster E28?"
M635CSi: ":... Internal Cooling: H2O Injection, Piston Squirters, Sodium Exhaust Valves
External Cooling: Dry Sump/Oil Radiator/High Capacity Water Radiator"
ShawnD: "BTW, water injection isn't for "cooling.""
M635CSi: "Shawn, water injection is... "for cooling." ....."
ShawnD: "but I still do not believe you can use water injection as the sole source of engine cooling"
M635CSi: Wondering why Shawn doesn't acknowledge water injection as only one cooling system and that
it was never suggested as "the sole source of engine cooling" in the proposed engine(s)....

Yes, I know about the "tremendous heat capacity of water," but I still do not believe you can use water injection as the sole source of engine cooling,

so your "external" vs. "internal" argument is one of those absurd absolutes. I seriously doubt you'd be running water injection at the same flow rate you'd be running the internal cooling.

Your statement is a non sequitur in light of the multiple approaches to engine cooling outlined in my post.

I don't recall any “external" vs. "internal" argument - absurd or otherwise. As I'm sure you are aware, arguments are discrete. They are either valid or invalid. Absurdity is irrelevant to the validity of an argument. Also, please note the specifications on the engines in my post include multiple means of cooling; oil, sodium, and water (both internal and external). It was never suggested water injection would be "the sole source of engine cooling" or that it would even be the major source.

Water injection is an internal cooling system. Specifically, the water injected into the combustion chamber vaporizes, cooling hot spots thereby forestalling detonation caused by overheating. The efficiency of a coolant is a function of the temperature differential between the item being cooled, and the coolant itself. Per unit volume, injecting 70° water into a 1,000° combustion chamber will cool it more effectively than running (that same volume) 200° (radiator) water over the outside of a 300° cylinder head casting.