M30b35 engine swap for the KILR5ER...dyno/turbo upgrade

[russc]

Oh Gees,
The E34 wiring of the level sender is different than the standard E34.

The sensor conn goes through 3 connectors before getting to the dash. Then it swaps wire colors on the low/full signal

No wonder your wiring is wrong, the ///M5 harness swaps the colors from the 20pin X20 to the next connecor. So the full signal goes from BLU/WHT()X20) to BLU/YEL(next conn) then to solid YEL at the sensor conn. Low level signal is BLU/YEL(X20) to BLU/WHT(next conn) to solild WHT at the sensor conn.

Oh my, you'll need the ETK for that one!

RussC

[M535 E28]

what if i bypass all this sh@#$it and plug the yellow and white wires from the sensor?

[russc]

what if i bypass all this sh@#$it and plug the yellow and white wires from the sensor?

That'll work, but hardly a solution....Im a believer in hooking things up right

RussC

[russc]

Well,
Im making progress. I made some runs today with the J&S knock controller hooked up. This unit works. I have the stock chip in the 179, and the advance curve is quite aggressive. The J&S unit takes it right out with the retard. I was running 7psi w/o much tuning. But the S-AFC II has its limits. Plus the ECU still wants to try to run stochio when Im runing boost, so I need to look into a O2 clamp, as we discussed ealier in this thread.

7psi feels pretty strong. With this newer engine, the front of the car lifts more than the old tired b34 did it spools faster also. Looking forward to doing some reall tuning in the next few weeks.

Oh, Ill have one of these babys for some live data logging also

Sweet..

RussC

[russc]

Some more tuning stuff,

I believe Ive figured the 42lb inj not running well in M1.3. The issue with the M1.3 is the "start" software algarithims. I believe the start process ignores adaptation values and mostly ignores the AFM for obvious reasons, thats to say "to start the car, you don't need those values as the start process is a static operation". The reason the car starts with 36lb inj's or smaller is the engine will start/run at ~10:1 AFR just fine with the "startup" parameters. Going to 42lb'rs is just too much fuel delivery to get the car started properly. Plus, I can smell fuel just after startup, and I know I don't have any fuel leaks. It does go away as the idle circuit leans the mixture fast just after startup.

Ive noticed with my car that if the ECU dosen't get the right idle parameters in the first 2 minutes of a fresh reset idle(adaptation cleared), it will never get there and runs at a fail safe idle mode of 1k rpm. It's my educated guess that once it pumps the idle up to 1k rpm, it runs out of its idle mode. This is because in my car, once it pumps the idle up to 1k rpm, it runs stochio just fine, but yet 800rpm is still way lean. This tells me that the idle parameters are very limited compared to the cruise/WOT adaptation parameters. Even at these ulta tight settings on the AFM(Im runing the AFM 10 clicks tighter than Dinan original setting), the closed loop running at cruise and WOT run fine. But idle doesn't!

Will be doing some more tuning today, Ill be loosening the AFM tension some as see where that gets me.

RussC

[russc]

Got the dyno runs last night...


Really happy with the results. I was expecting ~285whp, got 303whp in a roundabout way. As you can see, the 4th gear runs went to crap from the knock controller I believe. The blue is 3rd gear, and it looks fine @8psi. The next run is green in 4th. It made 9.5psi, but the J&S knock controller destroyed the run(?). The real problem is temp. The runs were were made in 100deg temps I should have made the fist run in 4th, but I wanted to see what it looked like fist. The IC was coolish for the fist run, hot for the 2nd and on fire for the third. The end of the 3rd the IC burnt my hand when I touched it. I guess it was nearly 160deg. The Dinan IC placement is total crap for dyno'ing, the exhaust manifold just cooks it w/o proper air flow.

Anyway, if the 2nd run was OK after 4400rpm, I extrapalted the torque would have made ~340lb-ft @ 4900rpm and ~315whp @ 5500rpm. Im sure that would have been pretty close, which is really great FOR A JUNK YARD ENGINE

I was also impressed with how the hp rose steadily to 5500rpm. I didn't think it would, but it did. If I had rev'd it to 6k rpm, It may have made another 5-10whp...oh well. Also, the hp and torque are closer in value than I would have thought. Only a ~15 spread.

And, this is all with 91octane CA crap gas. Im sure if I was to add some candy 100octane to mix up to say 94 like the guys in any other state, it would have made some more power easily. I think Im going to go back and make some runs when its cooler and can take a little time between runs and adjust out the knock controller a little to see where it is before the MegaSquirt install. Some tuning can make this moster a real beast.

I data logged the LM-1 for the dyno runs....


I marked the point where the AFM voltage knee'd @ 4900rpm. As you can see from the dyno, the torque peaked at 4900rpm, exactly where AFM stopped opening. As I said earlier in the tuning thread, I thought that would be the case. The eninge maxes air flow max AFM flap opening.

[Duke]

Congratulations Russ! With all of the things you have going against you, 91 octane gas, crap A/A intercooler location, AFM (why you still have one, I don't understand) and high temps, you made some great numbers.

Ever thought about a TCD A/W intercooler?

[russc]

Congratulations Russ! With all of the things you have going against you, 91 octane gas, crap A/A intercooler location, AFM (why you still have one, I don't understand) and high temps, you made some great numbers.

Ever thought about a TCD A/W intercooler?

Thanks,
Its taken alot of work and two harnesses to get here.

You know, I still have the AFM, and Im somewhat glad I do. This metering device is so easy to use, and more importantly so easy to tune. Click, click click and your tune'd with almost any size inj is done!!!

Ya, a W/A would be nice, I have some ideas with the A/A I have in the system now.

RussC

[russc]

Hey,
Was at the dyno early today to get representative runs in some decent temps.

Im very happy with the results.

Ill post the dyno charts later, for a tease, I made over 360lb-ft at 9.5psi on craptane(91).

RussC

[Rich Euro M5]

Russ,

The AFM has another adjustment that's not easily seen. If you look closely at the wiper arm, you should see it has a seperate lockdown screw that allows one to move the wiper independently of the spring tension. In your case of having a lean idle, you would want to move the wiper to richen the mixture. If it's already at the full rich position, then loosen the spring tension, you stated you've set it 10 clicks tighter than the original Dinan setting. By playing the spring tension against the wiper position you should be able to find a happy compromise to fix your lean idle situation.

HTH

Rich

[russc]

Todays dyno posted..
Specs:
M30b35 stock
RotoMaster WG
BMW DME M1.3(179) with TCD chip
Dinan Turbo system:
---TO4b H3
---Dinan manifold
---Dinan A/A IC
TCD 3" exhaust with catalyst
3mm enlarged throttle body
Craptane(CA 91 octane, San Fransico formulation)



323whp and 363lb-ft wheel....

Im really happy with those #s. Using the mechanical WG the boost would spike to 0.76kg/cm2(10.8psi) then drop at ~4600rpm to 0.7kg/cm2(9.7psi) and hold there till the end. My early and late runs were the best. My boost controller was fucking up, so I had to go to mechanical. The first run overboosted so it was aborted early. The last run after the WG was adjusted right ended early as the other runs didn't indicate it would make alot more hp, maybe ~5whp.

If I used 93 octane I would probably get another 1.5 to 2psi, and 340whp and 385lb-ft wheel

That curve looks very much like Andrews E34 with stock M30b35 and TEC3R tuning running ~13psi. Not sure why mine is making the same power at 3psi less, but could be due to my engine being fresher, 98k vs 220k.

No more dynos, let the MS install begin and dump all these piggybacks.

RussC

[Duke]

.

No more dynos, let the MS install begin and dump all these piggybacks.

RussC

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh........I glad you are finally coming to the stand-alone dark side. Good numbers. now start over. Is'nt this fun!

[russc]

Quick update,
Since last dyno, the car runs more boost on the street with real air flow over it. I had to set the WG full tight to get the 9psi on the dyno. On the street with 50+mph wind, the WG runs cooler and boost to 11psi. Since the engine is running way cooler also, theres no detonation at 11-12psi. It feel real good, I say ~25whp more. With 93octane, Id say 14-15psi and another 25whp.

I still have a Tial WG from TCD I need to install. Maybe in a few days. Then I can get my EBC going again. Im shooting for the weedend.

Im crushed with work in the Silicon Valley Grind again, so any MS ECU install is on hold for a bit till I can get some breathing room.

[SilverBullet]

Sweet! nice work mate, good to see its finally goin.
I got my b35 conversion goin finally too, had a bit of a hicup with totalling the car a couple of weeks after, but its all good now and in a new shell. Only things i have to do is get the tacho working, water temp gauge, and the oil level and coolant level working? There a bit werid those ones. Next plan is to get MS on the car and working then get some boost into the engine.
I was just wondering with the knock controller, how it controls as such, and where u put the sensors.
Cheers
Aaron

[Striker]

Hi Russ,

I just pulled out an m30 from an 88 wrecked e32 735i with 85,000 miles on it. I will be installing it into my 87 e30 325is which has a different harness compared to the e30's 88 and up.

I know that the 88 and up e30 harness plugs right up to the e34 m30b35 engines, so I dont think it will be plug and play on my 87. When I pulled my 87 m20 out, I left my entire harness on my 87, should I try to implement the m20 harness onto the m30 or the m30 harness to the car?

I wonder if your e28 shares the same or similar harness as my 87 325is.

I am totally impressed with your dyno numbers and like you did, I will be turbocharging my m30 as well.

Thanks,

Ralph.

[russc]

Sweet! nice work mate, good to see its finally goin.
I got my b35 conversion goin finally too, had a bit of a hicup with totalling the car a couple of weeks after, but its all good now and in a new shell. Only things i have to do is get the tacho working, water temp gauge, and the oil level and coolant level working? There a bit werid those ones. Next plan is to get MS on the car and working then get some boost into the engine.
I was just wondering with the knock controller, how it controls as such, and where u put the sensors.
Cheers
Aaron

The knock control is the J&S unit. The timing is retarded by a microphone bolted to the block. Mine sensor is a stock sensor from Bosch from a 930 Porsche. There are the standard mounts right there under the exhaust manifold.

RussC

[russc]

Hi Russ,

I just pulled out an m30 from an 88 wrecked e32 735i with 85,000 miles on it. I will be installing it into my 87 e30 325is which has a different harness compared to the e30's 88 and up.

I know that the 88 and up e30 harness plugs right up to the e34 m30b35 engines, so I dont think it will be plug and play on my 87. When I pulled my 87 m20 out, I left my entire harness on my 87, should I try to implement the m20 harness onto the m30 or the m30 harness to the car?

I wonder if your e28 shares the same or similar harness as my 87 325is.

I am totally impressed with your dyno numbers and like you did, I will be turbocharging my m30 as well.

Thanks,

Ralph.

Boy, you got some work ahead. I would get a M1.3 harness from a '89 of later E30 harness. You will still need to modify it for the inj harness. Most of the rest will work. You just plug the 179 ECU into the E30 harness.

The E28 harness are differnent from the any E30. Dont go there.

RussC

[Striker]

Boy, you got some work ahead. I would get a M1.3 harness from a '89 of later E30 harness. You will still need to modify it for the inj harness. Most of the rest will work. You just plug the 179 ECU into the E30 harness.

The E28 harness are differnent from the any E30. Dont go there.

RussC

Hi Russ, sorry i missed your post until now.

Work ahead, I know, tell me about it I am taking the entire winter to rebuild the car from the bottom up, you don't wanna hear about all the upgrades and swaps, TONS. Thank god the winters here in Ottawa Canada are long, almost 6 months so I have lots of time to get this going.

Russ, I did an engine swap from an 89 e30 into an 87 325is like mine, and the harness was different.

This was what I was told.

"Unless you want to rewire C101 and C104 you will need to use the 87 Harness as it requires the C104 connector for Tach/Fuel/MPG Function (IE it wont start without this connector)

88+ cars integrated C104 into the C101 connector by adding the pins.

So in short, If you use the 90 harness the engine will not start and you may fry something.

EDIT, and for the cooling swap over, all you have to change isthe waterpump to an 84 - 87 model....thats it."

I swapped the harness doing that swap and it ran fine.

The harness from the m30b35 will work plug and play on the 88 and up e30's but not 87 and down.

I guess the other option is to use my 87 325is m20 harness.

[russc]

Im not as familiar witht he E30 harness, but what your saying sounds right. The C101 went to a 20pin conn for the M30b35, not sure when that happened for the E30.

RussC

[SilverBullet]

hey,
I am having problems wiring up my tacho with my b35 conversion. So i am curious as to where u got the signal from. It comes out of the ecu right, pin 6? Is a black wire? Does this lead to a plug somewhere or did u hack into it? As for the e28 end, is it only the black wire that has to be connected or are there other wires that have to be connected for the tacho to work?
I have a feeling i may have asked this before but cant remember and cant find anything through search (its like 54 pages screw that!)
Thanks heaps!
Aaron

[russc]

RPM output is pin 21 from the ECU, blk/blu. At C103 to the dash its a pin 1, blk. Should work if you drive that pin with any other ECU. C103 is right there at the ECU connector.

RussC

[SilverBullet]

I wish i was better at the electronics side of things so i tryed the blk/blu wire from the 4pin connector near the ecu (the only one) to the black wire to the dash and got nothing. Is there a way to check the Blk/blu wire with a multimeter to see if its sending a signal?
Also do u no off the top of your head wat the other wires go to on both these plugs? I think the one in the e28 (3pin) go to the econo gauge? Thats all ive been able to find so far.
Thanks for u help Russ!

[russc]

You will have a hard time checking it with a DVM. Although, it should give you some kind of avg. voltage out. The signal is 0-12v but at idle its 750Hz. So a standard DVM is not going to give you much. You need a O-scope to check it properly. If you getting nothing from the wire I gave you, You ECU is not supplying it. Theres either a break in the wire or the ECU is fry'd. Do you have a spare?

The other signal in that conn is the fuel rate output. Thats for the dash econ gauge and OBC.

RussC

[turbodan]

I may have missed it, but I didn't see any mention of the power input from the ignition switch to the ecu through the C103 connection. Thats the same connector that handles the fuel flow and engine speed to the cluster. In my case, I was wiring an e30 325i harness into my 85 528. It wouldn't start at first. I looked through the ETM for the 23rd time and saw the power input I'm referring to. That did the trick. Tells the ecu its time to wake up. I'm not sure if thats done differently on other cars, but it was in the C103 for my 85 and the 87 325i harnesses I used.

If I had the choice, I would have used a super eta harness in mine. It has the rectangular C101 connector for the e28 fusebox, and its for motronic 1.1/1.3. I bet it would fit an M30 in the e28 chassis better than the e30 harness. And it would easily reach the stock ecu mounting location inside the glovebox.

[SilverBullet]

Dan i have no idea wat ur talking bout

The wiring diagram that i have is different to the harness i got (stock m30b35) and is different from wat u are telling me russ. Here are the colours of wires i have and the pins that they go to on the ecu plug.

White 4 Pin connector on e34 harness:
Red wire - pins 16, 17, 37
Green/black - pins 1, 2, 10,14, 19, 24, 52, 55
Black/grey - pin 40
Blue/Black - 41

Black 2 pin connector on e34 harness:
Brown/Blue - pin 33
Green/Purple - pins 1, 2, 10,14, 19, 24, 52, 55

White 3 pin connector on e28 underdash:
Black - instrument cluster
Green - instrument cluster
Black/white - instrument cluster

I have tryed connecting some of these up but im just goin to blow the ecu... i have turned the car of and had the car still running with the keys out! And also had the starter motor engage
Thanks for your help guys i really appreciate it.
Aaron

[russc]

Oh man,
Sorry for the confusion. Im confused on your set up. The M30b35 harness is different depending on yrs, but, what I can see is this,

Forget about the M30b35 white 4 pin and 2pin. There not needed for rpm(engine speed output).

RPM out on the M30b35 harness is pin 6 blk wire to the 20pin round connector in the engine compartment near the LH shock tower to pin 9. You need to splice into that line near the ECU and run it to the E28 C103 conn. Its a 6 pin connector near the ECU(single row of pins). the RPM signal in that conn. is pin 1 blk wire on the instrument cluster side.

You should really get a ETM for both harnesses. There free on the net. Someone have the link to the E28 ETMs again?

RussC

Dan i have no idea wat ur talking bout

The wiring diagram that i have is different to the harness i got (stock m30b35) and is different from wat u are telling me russ. Here are the colours of wires i have and the pins that they go to on the ecu plug.

White 4 Pin connector on e34 harness:
Red wire - pins 16, 17, 37
Green/black - pins 1, 2, 10,14, 19, 24, 52, 55
Black/grey - pin 40
Blue/Black - 41

Black 2 pin connector on e34 harness:
Brown/Blue - pin 33
Green/Purple - pins 1, 2, 10,14, 19, 24, 52, 55

White 3 pin connector on e28 underdash:
Black - instrument cluster
Green - instrument cluster
Black/white - instrument cluster

I have tryed connecting some of these up but im just goin to blow the ecu... i have turned the car of and had the car still running with the keys out! And also had the starter motor engage
Thanks for your help guys i really appreciate it.
Aaron

[turbodan]

White 3 pin connector on e28 underdash:
Black - instrument cluster

Green - instrument cluster !!!

Black/white - instrument cluster


That green one is the one I'm thinking of. Use a test light and check it with the ignition off and then in the run position. I bet you get 12 volts there with the key on. Thats the one I needed, but I didn't use an e34 harness. Both the e28 and 1987 e30 harness got the run/start signal from underneath the dash.

[russc]

Its not a 3 pin conn, its a 6pin with only 3 positions used. BLK is RPM, GRN is the output from the OBC to the main relay. The OBC energises the GRN wire if the code protect is false. WHT is the present fuel rate output from the ECU.

I used the GRN wire from the OBC to turn on the M30b35 ECU. The main relay is in the M30b35 harness now, not at the fuse box. When the ECU is turned on, the ECU(179) pin 36 turns on the main relay. This is a very complicated hookup tha is not easily explained here. But Im trying.

RussC

White 3 pin connector on e28 underdash:
Black - instrument cluster

Green - instrument cluster !!!

Black/white - instrument cluster


That green one is the one I'm thinking of. Use a test light and check it with the ignition off and then in the run position. I bet you get 12 volts there with the key on. Thats the one I needed, but I didn't use an e34 harness. Both the e28 and 1987 e30 harness got the run/start signal from underneath the dash.

[SilverBullet]

Its not a 3 pin conn, its a 6pin with only 3 positions used. BLK is RPM, GRN is the output from the OBC to the main relay. The OBC energises the GRN wire if the code protect is false. WHT is the present fuel rate output from the ECU.

In my car it is actually a 4 pin conn as well with only 3 used. In my old car it was a 6pin con.
So i shouldnt need the green wire at all?
I noticed that when i hooked up the WHT wire that the car seemed to idle better, does this make any sense to either of u? Also does the ecu need the water temp for any reason? As i have this disconnected and have another gauge in there.
Thanks both for your help i really appreciate it!
Cheers
Aaron

[russc]

Whether you use the GRN wire or not depends on your hookup. I used it, but you don't have to. Do you wan't to keep the OBC code protect??

In theory, the cars idle is independent of the WHT(present fuel consumption) signal. The ECU generates it for the OBC.

Not using the coolant temp signal to the ECU is a very bad move. The fuel delivery is directly porportional to the coolant temp. You have to have it for the engine to have any chance of runing properly! The idle will highly effected by not having the coolant temp signal. Why did you think this was a good idea?

RussC

Its not a 3 pin conn, its a 6pin with only 3 positions used. BLK is RPM, GRN is the output from the OBC to the main relay. The OBC energises the GRN wire if the code protect is false. WHT is the present fuel rate output from the ECU.

In my car it is actually a 4 pin conn as well with only 3 used. In my old car it was a 6pin con.
So i shouldnt need the green wire at all?
I noticed that when i hooked up the WHT wire that the car seemed to idle better, does this make any sense to either of u? Also does the ecu need the water temp for any reason? As i have this disconnected and have another gauge in there.
Thanks both for your help i really appreciate it!
Cheers
Aaron