Fuel Injectors and Compatibility

[603Racing]

I know there is a sticky on this topic and other threads, but none of them really discuss Euro motors, specifically the M30b34 Euro.

I have a M30b34 Euro in my 1983 635csi Euro. I have the part number and all that, but I'm unsure of the specs of the OEM injectors. I am looking at possibly replacing my fuel injectors. How many pounds/hour are the OEM's? Are they low or high impedence? Any recommendations on alternative injectors to use (like ford injectors)?

[Rich Euro M5]

Go to RealOEM, insert your VIN and find the PN for the injectors. Go back to the screen you entered the VIN, enter the PN for the injector, check both US and Euro, you'll get fitment, which you will probably find is the same for the US cars.

[Mike W.]

Realoem may be of limited use on this one, mostly to determine compatibility, not specs. Most or all of the Injector spec sites, and there are a number including one that is very good (but I have the link on another computer) use the Bosch number on the injector itself, not the BMW part number. Of course after all that my guess would be it's the same as the ones in a 533, if they're stock. FWIW, I pulled an euro engine from a '83, 735 and it had oddball injectors and AFM, meaning neither stock euro or 533/535 while using a -008 ECU. In other words on a conversion it could be anything, you'll have to get in there and read the number on them.

[603Racing]

I have a couple of part numbers from realoem, but I was having trouble finding the specs.

Here are the two part numbers for '83 Euro from realoem:
13641273272
13641286026

This is the US part number for an '85 635:
13641276149

According to thist site:
http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/bosch-24lb-bmw
The OEM '83 Euro injectors are 24 lbs. and low impedence.

[Jeremy]

What fuel injection system (is it Motronic or L-Jet?) and ECU (if Motronic) are currently installed on the motor? That will determine which injectors are appropriate.

Based on what I'm seeing on RealOEM, it appears that car had L-jet, but might have had Motronic if was originally sold in certain countries. There's different injectors listed in either case.

Jeremy

[Mike W.]

I have a couple of part numbers from realoem, but I was having trouble finding the specs.

That's because you're using BMW numbers, not the number on the injector. Which may or may not even be original after federalization. They're likely Bosch injectors, not BMW injectors.

[ahab]

My 83 635 had metal case yellow tops, which would indicate single orifice 19lb'ers. I never bothered to check the impedance though.

[MyE24]

Has anyone ever found a definitive answer to this?
The 83/84 Euro 635 (was there also a Euro 535 those years?) seems to be unique in the injectors used.
I’m having a hard time figuring out if it was a 19 pounder (like a Bosch 130), or the 24 pounder Bosch 201.
I’ve seen different sources say different things.

[MannyE]

Has anyone ever found a definitive answer to this?
The 83/84 Euro 635 (was there also a Euro 535 those years?) seems to be unique in the injectors used.
I’m having a hard time figuring out if it was a 19 pounder (like a Bosch 130), or the 24 pounder Bosch 201.
I’ve seen different sources say different things.

This might be the specs for your injectors.

https://www.injectorplanet.com/products ... 0280150130

[Mike W.]

Welcome to the group MyE24.

I did a quick peek at Realoem and yes, it appears that is an oddball set of years. Given the output of the euro 3.5 I would guess they are in the 24 pound neighborhood, but that's a guess. I would spend some time poring over Realoem to see if the same AFM and ECU are used with a different injector number, and if so go with that spec. I'd also ohm out your injectors to make sure you get the right impedance, you can fry an ECU with the wrong ones.

BMW did odd stuff sometimes, US spec 535i's used two different injectors, with a 3-86 changeover, but they are effectively identical in specs. Might be off a tenth of a pound or two, but that's all and the same impedance, so they're completely interchangeable, but they show two different part numbers. I would guess you're in the same situation but I don't know if you could use earlier or later.

[MyE24]

Thanks Manny and Mike.
That Injectorplanet site is one I’ve seen. The injector you linked to is the 19 lb’er and is possible. But not certain.
I’ve also looked at Realoem many times. It’s not clear for the 83/84 Euro 635. And for that particular car RealOEM generally has a lot of inaccuracies regarding the fuel injection system.
Some people say the 83/84 Euro used the same injectors as the 83/84 US M30. Which would be the 533/633, and would be the Bosch 201 24 lb injector. I suppose that makes some sense.
Others say it uses the 130 injector, which is 19 lb.
My issue is a previous owner swapped out the injectors for Mustang injectors. So I don’t know what originally came in the car. The Mustang injectors are 19 lb., I discovered the car runs lean with them (there is no O2 sensor, cat or Lambda control on the 83/84 Euro, so the car always runs in open loop).
I hooked up a wideband and the car was running very lean.
I also noticed the AFM had been opened up, so I don’t know if any adjustments were made to the spring (I can’t be sure it was at the factory setting when I got it).
Because it was running lean as set up, I loosened the spring 8 clicks and set the idle mixture screw (which had the tamper plug already removed) to 4 turns from closed, and I’m getting around 14.7 at idle and at very light cruise. But it doesn’t richen up much at WOT.
That was with the 19 lb Injectors.
I then put in 24 lb injectors and dialed the AFM back 8 notches (back to where it was when I got the car). In that setup it runs rich, around 12.5 at cruise. I should have probably tightened the spring to get it leaned out and see what happened, but at that point I put the 19s back in and adjusted to 14.7 again.
Sooo, I really need to figure out what the right injector size is. Once I confirm that for sure, I can dial the AFM in, using my wideband.

[Mike W.]

OK, you're making me really look now. This page, http://www.users.interport.net/s/r/srwe ... .htm#BOSCH has a ton of injector data on it. One thing of note I saw was the -201 injector with a 2.5 bar FPR which resulted in a 22.5 pound injector which might be what you're looking for if 19s were too lean and 24 is too rich. One caveat though is that's a low impedance injector and if you're ECU is designed for a high impedance it will burn up the driver circuit in time.

[MyE24]

Thanks Mike.
That’s a great catch on the 2.5 FPR with the 201 24 lb injector. I have seen that chart, but didn’t notice that the 201 was rated with the 2.5 fpr.
My car came with the 011 ECU, which uses low impedance injectors. (So from my understanding I can run either high or low, it’s only a high impedance ECU that can’t run low impedance injectors).
Here’s a post from Chris Wright with some info. I don’t know who he is, but he seems knowledgeable. The problem is this appears to be something he typed up, I don’t know the source of the info.

[MyE24]

See the third post in this thread (I tried to post a pic of it but apparently can’t).

https://bigcoupe.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=21528

[Mike W.]

They're listed, but the 126 and 130 injectors don't make sense for a 3.5. At least one of them was listed as being for an eta which would have a much lower fueling need and I doubt enough for a euro 3.5. On the other hand, a euro 3.5 I pulled out of a yard one time had small (flow rate) injectors, I forget what now although I might still have them, but that car had clearly been tweaked for US/Cal smog, it had a 008 ECU, so I doubt they were original. Then again, it was an '83 735.

[MyE24]

This guy Brucey, who also seems very knowledgeable and is in the UK, says 130 or 126 19 lb injectors:

“ OK; my notes say

9/82 to 9/84 euro 635 typically has

Bosch (0 280 150) 130 injectors

Bosch ECU ...(0 261 200) 018

Bosch AFM ....(0 280 203) 018

Slightly earlier cars can have 011 ECU, 018 AFM and 130 or 126 injectors.

Both these injectors are low impedance type injectors.

[Edit both these injectors flow 18.27lbs/hr @ 3bar, vs the ~24.5lbs/hr of the -201 injector.]”

https://bigcoupe.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=17427

But again, the source of his info is not known.

Another clue is my car has the 3.0 bar FPR. It looks fairly old, but I can’t be sure it’s original. I suppose if the car came with that, the Stan Weiss chart would suggest 19 lb injectors?

[MyE24]

My car has the 011 ECU and 018 AFM, so according to him, it would be the 130 or 126.

To add to the confusion, the OP in that thread, 603Racing, who was trying to find the same info as me, ended up using Porsche 944 injectors, which are the 201 24 lb’ers, and he was happy with them. But without a wideband or other exhaust analysis, he may be running rich at 12.5 or so and not know it.

[MyE24]

Mike,
The Euro 735 that was running the 008, did it have an O2 sensor spliced into it and working?
I assume that would be possible.
Swap the 011 for the 008, and wire in the O2 sensor to the 008 ECU.
I’m guessing the Euro wiring harness and connector (the big connector to the ECU) simply has a blank/open spot for the O2 sensor wire.
(Although if it was as easy as that, I wonder why people in the 80s used a separate piggyback Johnson box to make use of an O2 sensor??)

[Mike W.]

Mike,
The Euro 735 that was running the 008, did it have an O2 sensor spliced into it and working?
I assume that would be possible.
Swap the 011 for the 008, and wire in the O2 sensor to the 008 ECU.
I’m guessing the Euro wiring harness and connector (the big connector to the ECU) simply has a blank/open spot for the O2 sensor wire.
(Although if it was as easy as that, I wonder why people in the 80s used a separate piggyback Johnson box to make use of an O2 sensor??)

It had an O2 sensor, but it was for appearance, it was not wired in. IIRC the AFM was not correct either, IIRC it was from a euro 525i, M30 car. But I've heard worse ideas than trying a 008 ECU with an O2 input. It would have a different advance curve, it was lower compression but meant to run on regular so it might just work with the high compression and premium.

[MyE24]

I’m just thinking for smog.
A high compression open loop Euro engine with a cat added would, I believe, pass any smog test in the US . . . if you could somehow get it to run at stoich during all phases of the testing.
So, at idle it’s easy to adjust the afm to be at 14.7.
It gets trickier when you have to pass on rollers at 15 and 25 mph.
I think it’s possible open loop, but it’s difficult. The Euro “dirty” ECU is designed to run without a cat and therefore doesn’t care about being at or near stoich.
If an operating O2 Lamba sensor could be added, to keep the mix at 14.7 at light cruise at all RPM, it would be a piece of cake to pass.

[MyE24]

TL;DR, what’s an efficient way of getting a Euro engine to run consistently at 14.7 at light cruise at various speeds?

[Mike W.]

I’m just thinking for smog.
A high compression open loop Euro engine with a cat added would, I believe, pass any smog test in the US . . . if you could somehow get it to run at stoich during all phases of the testing.

No, I don't think so, even at stoichiometric. High compression leads to high Nox, which is the Achilles heel of US spec cars passing smog here in Calif since they didn't use EGR. A qualifier to that is brand new cats do seem to perform extremely well so you might be able to get it to pass that way.

Just noticed your location, you're here in Calif, are you trying to get a non BAR approved car to pass? If it doesn't have a sticker they're going to put you thru hell.

[MyE24]

Even with a BAR sticker it still has to pass.
It can be done, there are BAR-stickered Euro high compression cars that pass and are registered.
Based on my testing, it will pass at stoich with a good cat. The cat is incredibly effective at reducing NOx - until you get into even a slightly lean condition. Then it skyrockets very quickly.
The difficulty is the 15 and 25 mph test conditions. It’s fairly easy to tune the car in open loop for either one, but not both.

[Mike W.]

Even with a BAR sticker it still has to pass.

Oh, definitely agreed. I just meant it gets crazy difficult if you don't have a BAR sticker. I looked into it one time and quickly ran the other way from that 323i when I found out what was involved.

[MyE24]

To follow up, I’ve found an 84 Euro 635 with original injectors, they are 280 150 130.