So Todd/Sweeney why No S38 Turbo Kit?

[BDK]

are ya skeared??

just wondering,
there just seems to be more and more people talking about them now that's all.....

[Boru]

Skeared of investing a lot of money,time and effort into something that no one will commit to.
We already offered to develope a kit if 5 people commited... hasn't happened.

[T_C_D]

are ya skeared??

just wondering,
there just seems to be more and more people talking about them now that's all.....

We won't do ourselves any favors by going out of business! We are in the midst of develping an e36 kit.

Todd

[BDK]

Just playing guys...


I didn't know about the offer of 5 kits to get it started...

I figured there was some reason and didn't know why...

[Tjn182]

are ya skeared??

just wondering,
there just seems to be more and more people talking about them now that's all.....

We won't do ourselves any favors by going out of business! We are in the midst of develping an e36 kit.

Todd

Heyyyyy wasn't that supposed to be a secret?

[gol10dr1]

nothing stays a secret around here!

[BMWS38]

What kind of $$ commitment are you looking for? I'm very interested!! I can't imagine we can't get 5 people to throw down some cash...

[rundatrack]

What kind of $$ commitment are you looking for? I'm very interested!! I can't imagine we can't get 5 people to throw down some cash...

Or a custom one off.....

[BMWS38]

What kind of $$$ would we be talking for a custom one off job?

[Duke]

What kind of $$$ would we be talking for a custom one off job?

I bet $15K.

[rundatrack]

What kind of $$$ would we be talking for a custom one off job?

I bet $15K.

Why so much...

[DMNaskale]

Duke M535ti wrote:
I bet $15K.

rundatrack wrote:
Why so much...

I think $15,000 is optimistic. To do it right would require a bunch of development time, fabrication, materials, tuning and testing. Custom manifolds, exhaust, plumbing, intercooler, ECU w/boost control, maybe a couple of turbos, dyno time. And enough money to make it worth their while.

[M635CSi]

Duke M535ti wrote:
I bet $15K.

rundatrack wrote:
Why so much...

I think $15,000 is optimistic. To do it right would require a bunch of development time, fabrication, materials, tuning and testing. Custom manifolds, exhaust, plumbing, intercooler, ECU w/boost control, maybe a couple of turbos, dyno time. And enough money to make it worth their while.

Don't forget the risk premium.

Most would say TCD has a very good reputation for their boosted M30 turbo kits. From a business standpoint an S38 turbo project can only be described as a waste of time. Here's why I think that:

1) There is no legitimate market for an S38 turbo - none. The resale price of an E28 with a turbo M30 goes up but the resale price of a motorsport car with a turbo not so much.
2) Many people who own cars with the S38 engine have enough expertise to either build their own turbo S38 engine, or learn to build their own S38 turbo engine.
3) What makes the M30 engine a great engine to turbo doesn't apply to the S38; they ain't cheap, they ain't abundant, and they ain't strong (in the same way). Melt a piston, crack some ring lands or sink a valve in an M30 engine it's no big deal - have the junk yard send you another one for $500. If the same thing happens to your S38 engine you're pretty much hosed.
3) To protect the TCD name, they would have to go into the S38 engine and make it a turbo engine; rods, pistons, balance the assembly, block modifications, and of course, a complete rebuild. Designing a "kit" to bolt a turbo onto an old S38 engine would be a huge risk for them, some would say corporate suicide.
4) Dinan stopped selling these kits for a reason. Whatever people may think about Steve Dinan, certain things are clear; 1) He's a shrewd business man and 2) he's a respected engineer of aftermarket BMW parts. Dinan's sales receipts must have shown an insufficient amount demanded at the price they were able to charge for the S38 kit - they're done.
6) TCD must develop new products for new cars. The turbo S38 is an old product for an old car.

[DMNaskale]

There is no legitimate market for an S38 turbo - none.

It has been done, one recently. There is always a market for unique performance cars. It may be a tiny market, but a single sufficiently enthu$ia$tic customer could make a custom one-off a viable project.

[M635CSi]

There is no legitimate market for an S38 turbo - none.

It has been done, one recently. There is always a market for unique performance cars. It may be a tiny market, but a single sufficiently enthu$ia$tic customer could make a custom one-off a viable project.

I agree but I don't think there are enough or perhaps any customers who are willing to belly up the $25,000 or $30,000 for it to be worth it.

[Tammer in Philly]

There is no legitimate market for an S38 turbo - none.

It has been done, one recently. There is always a market for unique performance cars. It may be a tiny market, but a single sufficiently enthu$ia$tic customer could make a custom one-off a viable project.

I agree with both of you. Essentially the market is so insignificant that businesses are best served by treating each customer as a one-off deal. Developing a "kit," therefore, would be a waste of time and money.

-tammer <--will probably turbo an E28 someday, but not the ///M.

[T_C_D]

Anyone with serious interest in having us perform this service should call me at 614-734-1422. I am thinking we can do it for 15k.

Todd

[Duke]

Anyone with serious interest in having us perform this service should call me at 614-734-1422. I am thinking we can do it for 15k.

Todd

I think $15K would be a great deal (Dinan charged over $30K in the 80's and Ken has spent much more than that). The S38 will develop more HP per psi than a M30 due to the head design and the multi throttle bodies.

Then again - over 400 hp is really unusable no matter how you are getting it in our cars.

If I reach my goal of 600 HP at the crank, it will be on a dyno only. I see only be able to use 400 HP on the street, the rest would be wheel spin no matter what gear. Then again, I will be running with Racelogic Traction Control............so who knows.

[russc]

Anyone with serious interest in having us perform this service should call me at 614-734-1422. I am thinking we can do it for 15k.

Todd

I think $15K would be a great deal (Dinan charged over $30K in the 80's and Ken has spent much more than that). The S38 will develop more HP per psi than a M30 due to the head design and the multi throttle bodies.

Then again - over 400 hp is really unusable no matter how you are getting it in our cars.

If I reach my goal of 600 HP at the crank, it will be on a dyno only. I see only be able to use 400 HP on the street, the rest would be wheel spin no matter what gear. Then again, I will be running with Racelogic Traction Control............so who knows.

Part of Dinan's cost was to rebuild the engine to 8.5:1 CR.

RussC

[Duke]

Part of Dinan's cost was to rebuild the engine to 8.5:1 CR.

RussC

As well Todd's would be. TCD would just not have a 2000% mark up on off the shelf BMW parts

[M635CSi]

Anyone with serious interest in having us perform this service should call me at 614-734-1422. I am thinking we can do it for 15k.

Todd

I think $15K would be a great deal (Dinan charged over $30K in the 80's and Ken has spent much more than that). The S38 will develop more HP per psi than a M30 due to the head design and the multi throttle bodies.

Then again - over 400 hp is really unusable no matter how you are getting it in our cars.

If I reach my goal of 600 HP at the crank, it will be on a dyno only. I see only be able to use 400 HP on the street, the rest would be wheel spin no matter what gear. Then again, I will be running with Racelogic Traction Control............so who knows.

Part of Dinan's cost was to rebuild the engine to 8.5:1 CR.

RussC

And rebuild the engine you must. Clamping a turbo onto an old S38 engine that hasn't been set up to run under boost is a problem waiting to happen.

If Todd is throwing an engine rebuild into the price that's got to be the deal of the century.

My understanding was is that all the Dinan S38 turbo motors ran 7.7:1 commpression?

[russc]

It depends on the power level Dinan was building the S38 to. Most were built to the 8.5:1 level. Some of the super high hp levels systems were lower CR.

Your right, if Todd is including a rebuild in that price...

As a point, you can run the S38 w/o rebuilding, but you better be damn sure your computer control is over the top, like a TEC3r, AEM, Haltech ect that can have really tight control over sprark/fuel and has GOOD KNOCK CONTROL. I say this, as the E36/E46 guys run up to 10psi on stock engines(10:1 or higher) just fine with the stock computer with tuner programs. But, as JimC says, the latest BMW ECUs are as good as anything that exist aftermarket or otherwise.

RussC

[Duke]

Your right, if Todd is including a rebuild in that price...

RussC

I am thinking a "freshening up" of the engine. New pistons for sure with a good honing with a check of the bearing and whatnot. I imagine the head would not be touched, just R&R. He could not do a “rebuild” and a one off kit for that price.

[gol10dr1]

Then again - over 400 hp is really unusable no matter how you are getting it in our cars.

not true.......todd's car has excellent grip at 350 rwhp (over 400 crank hp) and i still have excellent grip at 400 rwhp (almost 500 crank hp).

[M635CSi]

It depends on the power level Dinan was building the S38 to. Most were built to the 8.5:1 level. Some of the super high hp levels systems were lower CR.
RussC

Yey, that means the Dinan parts I bought are for the "super high hp levels" Ahahahahahahaha

[Duke]

not true.......todd's car has excellent grip at 350 rwhp (over 400 crank hp) and i still have excellent grip at 400 rwhp (almost 500 crank hp).

Todd tells me he is spinning the wheels in 4th gear. That’s not excellent grip. Your car is a lot heavier than a euro E28.

[T_C_D]

not true.......todd's car has excellent grip at 350 rwhp (over 400 crank hp) and i still have excellent grip at 400 rwhp (almost 500 crank hp).

Todd tells me he is spinning the wheels in 4th gear. That’s not excellent grip. Your car is a lot heavier than a euro E28.

I never said that. Car hooks up after 60mph.

Todd

[Jeremy]

If I shift hard enough, even my car will break the tires in third gear. Doesn't mean it'll do it when it's rolling along and I stomp it though. Big difference there.

Jeremy

[gol10dr1]

Todd tells me he is spinning the wheels in 4th gear. That’s not excellent grip. Your car is a lot heavier than a euro E28.

i've been in that car when it has hooked up from 1st to 4th gear and he wasn't going easy on the throttle.

[rundatrack]

you create the manifold
run low boost 5-6 psi on the stock motor
intercooler
Piping
engine management
Turbos


Wheres the 15k going?