MyE28.com

Hi All - I'm pretty new here, and I've made the classic mistake of buying a car unseen that has major issues which were undisclosed. It has ~160k on the clock, which (I now assume) is not accurate. The car came with substantial receipts and had been repainted so I felt pretty good. The seller even sent me a compression report showing the engine had 180psi across all six cylinders. I sent the car to a well reputed shop for what I thought would be a routine sorting, with a budget of $10-20k in mind. Then I got the inspection report...here are some highlights:

1) Motor - Leaking all over the place and compression is 150,160,135,159,131,160 (I frankly expected this)
2) Euro bumper conversion was done sloppily
3) Rear subframe mounting points (and shock-towers and trunk panels) rusted
4) Massive rust hole in passenger footwell (like you could stick both hands through)
5) Rockers are totally rusted out
6) Undisclosed body repairs on both sides of the car

There's more, but these are the biggies (scaries?). I'm faced with a decision, do I move the car along honestly and take my licks? Stabilize the rust and structural issues and drive as a beater? Begin a massive project myself (I'm a decent mechanic, but this a lot)? Stick it in a barn and hope values increase?

Constructive thoughts would be appreciated!

So sorry to hear this.
What'd the PO have to say?
Are they a member here?
Best wishes as you move forward.

1st 5er wrote: So sorry to hear this.
What'd the PO have to say?
Are they a member here?
Best wishes as you move forward.

Thanks for your wishes. It's a crummy situation. The seller is indeed a member here, but I'd rather not make this into a personal fight (I will name him if people think it would actually help). He told me I was picky and effectively called me a liar when I gave him the real compression #s. He did not respond when I sent him pics of the damage. I honestly can't tell if he's ignorant or unscrupulous (or both), but it's hard for me to believe he was unaware of the damage given the severity.

SDKeith wrote:

1st 5er wrote: So sorry to hear this.
What'd the PO have to say?
Are they a member here?
Best wishes as you move forward.

Thanks for your wishes. It's a crummy situation. The seller is indeed a member here, but I'd rather not make this into a personal fight (I will name him if people think it would actually help). He told me I was picky and effectively called me a liar when I gave him the real compression #s. He did not respond when I sent him pics of the damage. I honestly can't tell if he's ignorant or unscrupulous (or both), but it's hard for me to believe he was unaware of the damage given the severity.

I think an outing might be good for the community.
in case an opportunity later on arises at least the buyer will be forwarned.
Maybe others think differently.

It was yesfan. I'm disclosing that to forewarn future buyers (though I doubt he'll be selling anything more here). But I'd rather focus on moving forward. I need to make a decision on what to do.

So all this happened after your post here?
You seemed pretty happy at first? Of course, hidden details are not detected immediately.



Do you have pictures of the defects?
The other thing I don't understand is: you put down a big chunk of money and didn't even crawl under the car once, when you picked it up?

I guess what I'm trying to say: it's hard to blame the seller on this one.
Buying a car unseen with no second opinion besides the seller is one thing. The only thing strange is the compression numbers.
Fixing a body ain't cheap, but if you have 10-20k budgeted you should be fine.
Calculate on 15k for body and paint if you do some of the work yourself.
Referees the engine yourself for 5k. It's no rocket science if you have rebuild an engine before.

Is it possible to see some photos? Many of us have been all around these cars and are familiar with their construction. I'm sorry you're going through this. Surprising to see such widespread issues on a car with such a recent bare metal respray. Shows that is just one of Many terms that can be used improperly. Sounds like the seller is an owner of a lonely heart.

If I could see the severity of some of the body-related stuff, it would help to give you an idea of course of action to move forward.

Having never bought nor sold a car on BaT, can they be of
Any help in this situation?

Thanks for the replies. Like I said, I'm not trying to make this personal with the seller. I know used car purchases are caveat emptor. I was excited about the car and even after I drove it ~150 miles to a shipping depot I was still optimistic. The steering felt too loose and the transmission has issues, but this was within what I expected. When I picked it up, it was dark and it was hard to look under it. I also paid immediately, because it's an auction and that was my obligation. Bringatrailer has been as helpful as possible in the situation and I have nothing bad to say about them. Below are a few pics of the damage. Like I said, just looking for advice. I bought a car site-unseen at auction, I realize I'm kinda getting what I asked for.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hnoqde7liifp ... ZdjPa?dl=0

Tough situation, tough call. For that kind of coin I'd want it inspected prior to first bid by 3rd party. I'd wager the compression test was done wet hence the higher numbers.

Did the auction not have pictures of the undercarriage?

I should have arranged a PPI before bidding as I usually do.

Just to keep the thread easy, below are links to the auction with the pics provided (none of undercarriage) and a dropbox link with pics of the undercarriage rust and hilariously/previously "duct-tape" covered trunk rust.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1988-bmw-m5-25/

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hnoqde7liifp ... ZdjPa?dl=0

Doesn't look like a bare metal respray to me. I'd be talking to a lawyer right now.

There is some evidence of rust in the pictures. I spy trunk gasket corner in the shot of the 1st aid kid & a couple others that the board will point out.

The rust described wasn't shown in the ad which would be omission rather than a cover up. Right or wrong, now is damage control. As an honest seller one shouldn't be quick to judge another party if approached appropriately. Perhaps an amicable agreement can be worked out one way or another?

Perhaps push forward with body repair. If done correctly, the car should appreciate.

Glass 1/2 full despite it being saltwater?

\edit

A well written ad that has no mention of rust nor being rust free...

Looks rough, despite that fact I would have checked for it at pick up (one is always smarter after the damage is done), these things should be mentioned in a sales ad.

But again, i would bite the bullet and start restoring it. It's nothing impossible.
You can work on the engine while a body shop is doing the rest, if you are handy.

Good luck!

I think BenGerman and Nebraska_e28 have the right idea. I have no interest in legal action and frankly think there is no case here. Also, the seller declined to work with me when I spoke with him.

So here's my question..For those of you in Southern California. Could you recommend a body shop that's set up to do this? I need a shop that 1) Obviously get's the e28 and 2) Is set up for this kind of work. I've spoken with several "big time" shops and the ballpark estimates are catastrophically large.

How much can you do yourself? Do you have a garage you can work in?
Things that cost a lot of money for labour, are removing all the trim, Interior and so on.
If you can do that yourself, that should save quite a bit of money.

Have you rebuild an engine before? These engines are not bad to work on, you just have to be careful, take your time (especially reassembling) and have basic knowledge about timing and so on.

wkohler wrote:Sounds like the seller is an owner of a lonely heart.

And the buyer got the long distance runaround...

Karl Grau wrote:

wkohler wrote:Sounds like the seller is an owner of a lonely heart.

And the buyer got the long distance runaround...

Hey we are getting close to the edge of outing this guy.

It’s sad when you look back through the few posts he actually made and he brags about how NICE and MINT the car is. Screw this guy.

BenGerman wrote:How much can you do yourself? Do you have a garage you can work in?
Things that cost a lot of money for labour, are removing all the trim, Interior and so on.
If you can do that yourself, that should save quite a bit of money.

Have you rebuild an engine before? These engines are not bad to work on, you just have to be careful, take your time (especially reassembling) and have basic knowledge about timing and so on.

I have a garage to work in and am competent enough to do the basics stripping the interior and trim (and other major components). Interestingly, having been calling around today, I may have a line on a stripped shell which would make this a lot less miserable.

As for the motor. I have a M.E. degree and rebuilt a Jeep 258 20 years ago, but (being honest) I am a little afraid of this one. And while I have room to do big stuff, I don't have a large permanent work bench that's really big enough to deal with hundreds of small parts.

I think that since you are dealing with a valuable car, you need to decide if you can carry out a proper restoration that does not ultimately devalue the car.

If you properly fix the rust, you will be a hero, but will be in a financial hole. More people can fix mechanicals than rust, so a subsequent sale might be easier with the body and paint complete. You also need to decide to go euro bumpers or back to US spec.

I called out the trunk rust on BAT and the lower front fender rust is obvious in the pics. The seller never added pics under under the car.

At least it looks like you have all of the trunk lining parts.

I think you are in tough spot, where the end product will cost as much as nicer cars. I could see the financial case being made to cut the loss and invest in a better car.

wkohler wrote:

Karl Grau wrote:

wkohler wrote:Sounds like the seller is an owner of a lonely heart.

And the buyer got the long distance runaround...

Hey we are getting close to the edge of outing this guy.

A lot of drama in this fragile situation.

Most high dollar restorations will be lucky to return you 50 cents on the dollar. It’s almost always cheaper to buy something someone else restored. This particular car might have an advantage due to its increasing value but I think to protect yourself you need to plan on doing most everything that requires hand tools yourself. The cutting, welding, sanding and spraying should be left to the pros, and with your budget you’re probably in the ballpark but if you’re going to include the time it takes to dismantle everything then you’ll likely end up upside down. The good news is that any E28 chassis can be used to cut and paste the bulk of the repair, unfortunately the sections you need are pretty commonly rusted so it will take finding the right car unless you sacrifice a rustfree chassis.

As far as using an entire rust free chassis and swapping everything over, that will make a fun driver but never be worth the sum of your investment. “Tribute” M5s are nice but it’s just not going to be worth the money. You’d almost be better off swapping the driveline into something else entirely, but that’s a crapshoot. The mechanical work required to send the rolling chassis off will take some time and space but this is really your only path forward if you’re looking to “right the ship”. If the car is accident free and has all its factory panels then it’s probably worth taking the plunge and turning this car into the project of projects. Personally I’d be inclined to do it. There’s a great support community here and believe it or not, this is not a hard task. Hell, it was put together by hand the first time around! You won’t be the first or last to do this with an M5 and you’re MUCH better off than starting with a car that was wrecked.

Having just been through the engine part of the equation, I can tell you what you’re looking at with relative accuracy, in round numbers. Mine didn’t need all of this work but I did enough that I can come close. Assuming the head is saveable with its original parts, a refresh should be about $1,300 all-in. Adding springs and valves would close to double that. If you only need a hone and rings downstairs $1,000 should cover it. For a bore and pistons figure $1,500 more. A full compliment of bearings will add $1,500, and the timing kit is under $1,000. Depending on who does the work and where you source the parts, worst case scenario shouldn’t exceed $7,500. Same with the body, if you drop off an assembled engine then expect to pay more for disassembly.

If this path doesn’t appeal to you then your other two options are to drive it as is while it falls apart around you until it becomes unsafe. Or to take 50 cents on the dollar now (maybe!) and turn it over to someone willing to either write giant checks or spend a year in the garage. Again, if this is an otherwise original M5 with everything the factory built it with, save for what the tin worm ate, then you’re probably going to come out ok if you invest a lot of your own time and make smart choices. As mentioned, you are in a tough spot because you will end up with an expensive car, but one that should be worth the money with the way the market on these cars is going.

ahab wrote:

If this path doesn’t appeal to you then your other two options are to drive it as is while it falls apart around you until it becomes unsafe. Or to take 50 cents on the dollar now (maybe!) and turn it over to someone willing to either write giant checks or spend a year in the garage. Again, if this is an otherwise original M5 with everything the factory built it with, save for what the tin worm ate, then you’re probably going to come out ok if you invest a lot of your own time and make smart choices. As mentioned, you are in a tough spot because you will end up with an expensive car, but one that should be worth the money with the way the market on these cars is going.

One other option is to get some better tape and tape that thing up as needed and drive it while prices rise. Then sell it for what you got in it to someone from the east coast looking for a CA car.

I appreciate the advice thus far and look forward to any additional thoughts the group has. Here's what I'm thinking:

1) I knew the car had rust when I bought it. It was noted in the auction in both the text and comments. My expectation from the way the car was presented was this was a "driver" that I could sort and enjoy without worrying if it got dinged in a parking lot. Which leads me to...
2) I did consider the "drive it as it falls apart around me", it would have been liberating in a way. However, it's unlikely it will pass CA smog and the rust on the rear subframe mounts (and a few other places) have me concerned about safety. Which leads me to...
3) I suspect a total restoration of this car "as-is" may be beyond my ability to commit time and space to the effort right now. I agree, there's nothing "magical" to it but...it's a lot, and I have an 8 month old, haha

So...I've been told by a respectable shop they may have a line on a "good" condition actual e28 M5 chassis, and taking pity on me they've offered to help source it. Transferring everything over feels a lot more "doable" to me (also, RoW M5 color Agate Green!). If that happens, I'll take the plunge...if not, I suspect you'll see this one "For Sale" here soon (unless I find a place to just mothball it until I have more work space).

Please keep the opinions coming and I'll keep updating. And seriously, I can't thank you all enough for your comments here. It makes me feel a lot less "alone" in this debacle.

SD Keith where in san diego do you live?

The rust on the rear subframe looks to me (caveat: I'm from Minnesota, so I probably have a very different idea of rust than a Californian..) like surface rust that would clean up pretty easily, and doesn't look like it affects anything structurally. But, that's just from the pictures, perhaps it looks much worse in person.

Car's definitely seen some winters though..

socalM5 wrote:SD Keith where in san diego do you live?

I'm in the Del Mar/Solana Beach area. I see your ID has you in Vista and that you have an e28 M5 Project. 1) Are you OK with the fires? and 2) Great to meet someone in the area with another project M5!

Yea we are fine, I am right off the 78 and civic center exit about 5 minutes from the evacuation zone. If you need help sorting out the m5 I could help you. My friend has 2 e28 shells with no rust for you to cut panels off if you need be. And as the motor goes autoban I el cajon has a s38 b35 with a rebuilt head and good compression drop in ready if you are looking at a motor

ahab wrote:... The good news is that any E28 chassis can be used to cut and paste the bulk of the repair, unfortunately the sections you need are pretty commonly rusted so it will take finding the right car unless you sacrifice a rustfree chassis.

...

If this is the route you take, I MAY have the pieces you need.
I've supplied several board members in the past.

edwardmsmith wrote:The rust on the rear subframe looks to me (caveat: I'm from Minnesota, so I probably have a very different idea of rust than a Californian..) like surface rust that would clean up pretty easily, and doesn't look like it affects anything structurally. But, that's just from the pictures, perhaps it looks much worse in person.

Car's definitely seen some winters though..

I agree with Edward here, the rust doesn't look that bad.... Those are usual wear spots for rust, the spare tire holder and inner fender. Drop the subframe and get a cheap mig welder, you can fix this up in a couple months... Not hard work just takes time.

SDKeith wrote:

socalM5 wrote:SD Keith where in san diego do you live?

I'm in the Del Mar/Solana Beach area. I see your ID has you in Vista and that you have an e28 M5 Project. 1) Are you OK with the fires? and 2) Great to meet someone in the area with another project M5!

I am located in La Mesa college area and am willing to lend a hand when you swap motors or other multi-person repairs you need.

SDKeith you said you have an M.E. Degree where do you work? I work at GA