E12 M535i was hit while parked in my driveway. *OLD THREAD*

[1st 5er]

That's the first offer, not the 'Final Answer'.
That won't come until you are satisfied.

[wkohler]

I get the feeling this is going to be too much effort.

What do I do to make them change their valuation? This isn't even close to being the same car. Do I just start bombarding them with documents? Write a letter? Tape a post-it to a brick? What?

[TSMacNeil]

Sorry for the news Chris. I'd carpet-bomb them with proper examples and their values...then give allowances +/- to your car...

They'll hope you cave, show them you won't.

.02

[1st 5er]

Have they seen this?

BARRETT-JACKSON LOT: 412 - 1977 BMW 530I 4 DOOR HARDTOP
Lot Number: 412
Auction: SCOTTSDALE 2009
Sale Price: *$31,900.00

Year: 1977
Make: BMW
Model: 530I
Style: 4 DOOR HARDTOP
Exterior Color: BAHAMA YELLOW
Interior Color: PALAMINO TAN
Cylinders:
Engine Size: 3 LITER
Transmission: 5-SPEED MANUAL
Summary: Modified with front & rear sway bars, Alpina wheels, Scheel seats, a 5-speed, Euro headlights, NOS
Euro bumpers, BBS spoilers and rear headrests. Concorso Italiano BMWCCA's Concours Trophy winner
and was featured in the June 2008 "Bimmer" magazine.
Details: This is a 1977 US spec 530i with a Euro conversion. It has been tastefully modified with front & rear
sway bars, Alpina wheels, Scheel seats, a 5-speed, Euro headlights, NOS Euro bumpers, BBS front and
rear spoilers and rear headrests. This is one of the finest e12's in the country. It has won both Concorso
Italiano BMWCCA's Concours Trophy and also First Place at the CCA's San Diego event in Concours.
This 1977 BMW has the original, dealer installed pin stripe. This car is also featured in the June 2008
"Bimmer" magazine. All of the tools in the tool kit are present as well as the original spare. All of the
stickers under the hood are original and are perfect. The gaskets around the hood, trunk, and windows
are like new as well.
*Price Includes Buyers Commission

I don't think they have enough information yet.

Tell them to use this as the comparable,
minus the cost of the paint job,
and you'll be happy to take that check and leave them alone.

[cvillebimmer]

Save your breath and let the company you pay premiums to fight the battle. Isnt that why you pay them?

[wkohler]

Save your breath and let the company you pay premiums to fight the battle. Isnt that why you pay them?

I pay them so that I can drive my car and not have to have it emissions tested.

[TSMacNeil]

Save your breath and let the company you pay premiums to fight the battle. Isnt that why you pay them?

This makes sense in some cases...but no insurance carrier will argue an increase in valuation like the owner will. I would reference the agreed valuation of $6k...obviously Chris was able to convince his company of a figure they'd insure to....

Chris, I'd make them explain the differential between their $1000 figure and your $6k insured value...WITHOUT letting them talk you into letting your carrier handle it....

You already refuse to let them total the title...good move.

[rlomba8204]

I get the feeling this is going to be too much effort.

What do I do to make them change their valuation? This isn't even close to being the same car. Do I just start bombarding them with documents? Write a letter? Tape a post-it to a brick? What?

Comparable sales, as close as you can find. Give them the report on Ron's E12. It won't be comparable really, but it is the other extreme from the POS with which they are comparingyour car. Other sources: BMWCCA ombudsman?

They are, btw, guessing you don't want to go through your insurer because I am guessing that with a collectible policy the car had to be in the garage and it wouldn't have been damaged if it were in fact in the garage. I am not criticizing you, I am telling you why they are doing what they are doing, or at least one reason for so doing so you understand the limits to your leverage. But you still do have leverage. Their policyholder drove recklessly onto your property. Is there other property damage you can add into the claim? Get an estimate from a landscaper, for example, for the damage to the lawn, shrubs, etc. I know it sounds like BS, but they can't beat something with nothing.

[TSMacNeil]

Part of the problem is comps...we all know there's a handful of these cars left domestically...regardless of condition or value. The probability is that many of the examples are already restored and ^$. The lack of comps is only a hurdle for the lazy insurer to become inspired to jump over.

How many Bugatti's are still out there? Any in unrestored condition with which to make a reasonable comp?...No.

This is the logic you need to apply to them Chris. Get your pictures of your lawn and VERY sentimental hybrid roses together ...do the BMWCCA thing, find the M535's you can find. Then treat it like any other appraiser does: adjust +/- to your car...not some POS half-dead autobox in PA.

[C.R. Krieger]

I get the feeling this is going to be too much effort.

You spend more time here arguing useless trivia. Spend that energy on inundating them with all the information it took to convince you to buy the damn thing in the first place.

What do I do to make them change their valuation? This isn't even close to being the same car. Do I just start bombarding them with documents? Write a letter? Tape a post-it to a brick? What?

All but the brick. Ask them who they would consider to be the expert to whom they obviously don't have access. Almost any sentient technical advisor in BMW CCA would have a better idea than they've come up with. Ask them if they'd pay out based on a bunch of asking prices that you came up with. The answer to that is a resounding NO, so there's no reason you should accept it.

FWIW, Da Red Dog garnered a 'comparable' of a clapped-out eta automatic sold in Green Bay for my first offer. That was also around $1200. By the time I got done shoving recent actual sales of 535s from all over the country at them, they eventually increased the offer by over 200% and let me keep (as opposed to 'buying' - this leaves the title untouched) the car. I know it'll be tough, but you need to find some sales of decent E12s.

As well, let them know that refraining from requiring it to be declared a "total loss" will make you more amenable to settlement "without litigation"*. Get yourself an estimate for replacement parts only (which is all you realistically need - you were planning to rebuild/repaint the car anyhow) that fits within your most reasonable demand.


* You have a right to threaten to do anything you may legally do. You may legally sue them over this, so subtle offhand references to litigation are a perfectly reasonable tool in your arsenal - even if you have absolutely no intention of doing so. You have played poker before, haven't you?

[Rich Euro M5]

Chris,

I just went through this crap about 2 months ago with my DD. I don't recall the name of the company that provided the comps to the other insured's insurance carrier, but they tried a similar tactic. In my case they tried to use two 528e(s) and a ragged out 535is as the comps. I had done my analysis on Autotrader and had saved every 535i for sale in the US for the previous three weeks and shot the listings back at the insurance company. Amazingly I received a new offer based on KBB pricing for an '86 535i in very good to excellent condition. The original offer was $1400 and I got it bumped to $4000.

The hard part for you is coming up with comparables since there were so few of these cars built. So the first thing to do is dredge up every bit of info you have on the E12 based M535i, things like total production numbers for LHD versions. From my archives I have the following info,

Model Year 1980 VINs 4145001 through 4145408
Model Year 1981 VINs 4145409 through 4145960

The world wide production for both years is 960 cars.

From "BMW M-Series and Performance Specials" by Jonathan Cohen, ISBN:0-7603-0171-9 in the chapter describing his personal involvement with the restoration of an M535i, the author estimates there were no more than about 12 examples imported to the US, this was circa 1991. It's 19 years later, how many do you think exist today?

My 2008 edition of the Collector Car Price Guide, ISSN: 1931-9819 lists a price of $4950 for your car in "Good" condition. "Good" condition is defined as... " A drivable vehicle needing no or only minor work to be functional. Also, a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amateur restoration. All components may need restoration to be excellent, but the vehicle is mostly usable as is.

The next tier up is "Very Good" and lists a price of $11,160. "Very Good" is defined as...Completely operable original or "older restoration" showing wear. Also, a good amateur restoration, all presentable and serviceable inside and out. Plus combinations of well-done restoration and good operable components or a partially restored vehicle with all parts necessary to complete and/or valuable NOS parts.

So it's very conceivable that your M535i is fairly valued at $6000.

FWIW: $1000 is the approximate value for a parts car, $3000 is for a non-drivable M535i that needs complete restoration of ALL , body, drivetrain and interior components.

As you are well aware, you need to build a case showing the rarity and value of your M535i and build up it's value.

HTH

Rich

[TSMacNeil]

Damn...these last 2 posts are dead-on. Well said guys.

Chris: you know this car FAR better than they do...PROVE IT.

Make 'em cry for you to stop...then collect your $$ and keep the clean title.

[Adam W in MN]

Sorry to say, but as others have stated this will take some effort to fight them. Also I didn't think of the garage stipulation for the collector insurance but I would guess that is correct and will disqualify you (my policy stipulates the same thing).

Rich, to answer your query, there are about 20 known cars in the US which includes wrecks, running cars, well known cars, qualified rumors of cars, and 2 pre-production prototype M535i's that have a standard e12 vin. Try this tactic; ask them to find you a real comp such as a 4145xxx vin (ie a real one, not an e12 528i). Tell them you won't agree to any comp that doesn't have a VIN (requires proof) that ends with that sequence. Wish them good luck.

Use the Polaris silver e12 M535i that was on bring a trailer and eBay (Philippe Juneau's car in FL) which was bid into the mid teens. Look at it on a positive note; you don't need it to get to work every day and you can wait a long time for them to see your side of this and be a pain in their ass.

Also don't forget cars for sale on mobile.de as comps. If it has a 4145xxx vin, tell them it is game.

[TSMacNeil]

"Look at it on a positive note; you don't need it to get to work every day and you can wait a long time for them to see your side of this and be a pain in their ass. "

Thats a beautiful thing you just said.

I heard a new saying recently that I love: they have the watch...you have the time.

[wkohler]

So, if I have to spend forever fighting this thing, does that preclude me from moving forward, or is the whole project stopped now? I was really hoping to have the car stripped to a shell by the end of October to fit my plan.

I do have a compilation of all of the production data, the pricing guide on M535i.org and several other items to help establish the provenance of this car as well as it's differences from NA spec E12s. I was actually going to send Rich a message to ask if he'd help with that price guide info. Thank you for that.

[briansmith]

Is there a difference between a "collector car" policy and a "agreed value/stated value" policy?
If so, I'd imagine the "kept strictly in a garage" clause might apply to one, but not the other.
I know that I'd like to have a policy that allows me to have a knowledgeable assessor declare that the car I've worked to keep in good condition, but that I also drive regularly, is actually worth what it's worth when a claim comes up, not simply what some book value might be for the average make/year/model of that car.
A very different coverage option than what I'd want on a car purchased as an appreciating collectible not to be driven.

[TSMacNeil]

Yes...your project has hit the wall. If you continue to disassemble the car, they see it as "parts"...not a car.
I'm not an expert, but I've been shafted by insurance companies before...if you render it to "parts" (not driveable) too soon, you run a risk of a "re-assesment"..I wouldn't, but you have a project to consider.

Its up to you, but if you want to get paid, you have to cease and decist all activity on the car. If you want to plow ahead, you can do so at the risk of abandoning the claim.

Your stable of cars is so nice that you prolly can't fill the time elsewise. I could go years on my '84...much less the '88.....

Your call my man.

[wkohler]

DAMNIT. Things were going so well, too. Could be worse, though. Alright.

[TSMacNeil]

I think this is the only realistic strategy before you:

You can't show this car as equivalent to a finished and sold example...because it wasn't finished. Was it registered and inspected? Yes. That means it was a "driveable car" at the time of the incident.

If you reduce it from that point, you run a risk....

UNLESS you get a condition statement in writing from the insurance company as to it's "driveability" at their time of assessment.

Then, you can prolly continue with your plans while you hash it out with them.

[wkohler]

BTW, here's the comp:

http://www.americanlisted.com/pennsylva ... 95101.html

Yep. Looks just like mine.

[1st 5er]

What a turd... (referencing the adjuster).

[wkohler]

I also love the fact it's advertised for $1100, not $1000.

[TSMacNeil]

I also love the fact it's advertised for $1100, not $1000.

Show them how wrong they are...Find every M535i you can find...here and worldwide...find some sale prices.

For shits and giggles, you could show them e28 examples...and then show them your stable...

You wont win with someone who can't see. Pick any example with under 1000 production numbers...and have them find a comp..as was said already.

[Mike W.]

You are just likely starting a long fight, but in case they are just clueless and not trying to steal from you, which I admit isn't likely, try this one. Would a stock Pontiac Tempest be valued the same as a matching number GTO from 1964? They may not agree or be convinced, but they will understand that comparison. But mostly they are just trying to figure out how not to pay you and don't care what it's worth.

[Rich Euro M5]

"Look at it on a positive note; you don't need it to get to work every day and you can wait a long time for them to see your side of this and be a pain in their ass. "

Thats a beautiful thing you just said.

I heard a new saying recently that I love: they have the watch...you have the time.

This is exactly how to deal with an insurance company, particularly the claims department. Insurance companies bank on the person suffering the loss to want / need the money quickly. When you have time and can wait it works against them. An open claim is a measurable metric for a claims adjuster. The longer your claim file stays open the better, insurance companies don't like having unresolved claims laying about.

However you can't simply sit and watch, you need to continually send them information about comps. If they don't change they're tune after a month or so, then you might want to make hints about litigation.

Rich

[Adam W in MN]

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/detai ... abNumber=2

Screenshot in case ad disappears.

[Rich Euro M5]

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/detai ... abNumber=2

GREAT comp, 4600 Euros is $5970!!!

[Adam W in MN]

Another one:

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/showD ... geNumber=1




And the bringatrailer link from last year:

http://bringatrailer.com/2010/05/20/vin ... bmw-m535i/

[alpinacsi]

don't forget to add transport cost to those vehicles.

[WilNJ]

A slightly different take on things.

You wanted, IIRC, $2500 for the replacement of parts you were going to remove, refinish and reinstall anyway and a clean title.

I'm not sure what guides the adjustor in terms of the title, but you're only a $1000 apart on how much they're writing a check for.

I would collect all the comps and evidence that point to the value of the car in restored condition with a clean title and prove how reasonable you're being reasonable in what you're looking for.