The TCD Hartge M535i is for sale

[m-racer]

As someone who buys and sells cars. As someone who has painted and restored these cars, I think $25k is very fair. The car stock in this kind of condition is worth $15k. Ron P has sold pleanty of cars in that range with no where near the power. I would not want to pay $25k only because we all want a deal, but to write a check and get in and drive it for $25k is a deal when looking at time labor and material to build. Those saying it is not worth it, probably do not have the experience knowledge and wallet to to build or buy it. Not trying to be an ass and I have no knowledge to judge someone's wallet, but I do feal that blanket statements about cost and what it is worth should not be thrown around flipintly.

All the best to the new owner when it changes hands. Call me in two years and I would be a buyer, so treat it gently

Well said.The people on this board are often the worst enemy. Not all E28's are old junkers and this is clearly a great one. My rule is about 60% of investment if I am lucky. I am sure this car is not reaching that bogie at 25k$

[oldskool]

Real estate is a much better place to launder money but cars and boats can fit the need as well. I prefer rare books. Any buyer here is surely not interested in finances.

[al525i]

i can say without question that this car is an absolute bargain at 25k. I'm well over that with my euro e28 and it still needs the interior done. This car also has probably another 7k in tuning equipment over the top of my car. Also the alpina external fuel tank and all the other extremely rare goodies in this car. How it would not be worth 25k to someone wanting an e28 even near this type of build is beyond me.

If this car was available six months ago i would have bought it instead of starting back into my euro.

no need to comment on the vin situation, it seems to be a legitimately represented vehicle.

[M. Holtmeier]

"I can't decide between the Odyssey or the blown '57 two door post," said no one. Ever.

[Ken H.]

I really like the car. . . but . . . it's about $24k out of my budget.

Maybe you should move up to scoring on '74 Monte Carlos.

[MicahO]

How it would not be worth 25k to someone wanting an e28 even near this type of build is beyond me.

no need to comment on the vin situation, it seems to be a legitimately represented vehicle.

Absolutely - on both counts. If someone wants a *built, modified* e28, this is the way to get one - done right, already depreciated, and ready to roll. There is something to be said for doing one's own build, but there is a shit-ton of win in this car, and the price works.

[mooseheadm5]

If you're not in the market, you're in no place to judge how appropriate that amount might be.

This is completely untrue. Whether or not you have the means and desire to acquire something does not have any bearing on whether or not you are fit to judge its worth. Real estate appraisers and auction houses do so all the time. Just because they don't want to buy every vehicle or property they appraise, and likely wouldn't be able to afford a large portion of them does not mean they are not qualified to make a judgement. Their background and their ability to find and compare comparable sales are what determine whether or not they are qualified. Just because someone has the means to acquire something also does not make them capable of accurately judging what the item will sell for on the open market.

Knowing what I know about E28s, the cost of doing the modifications and restoration, the general hit one takes doing modifications (you rarely get back what you put in on something like this), and prior sales, I can say that I don't see this as being improperly priced, even in this market. The only thing that would trouble me if I were a buyer with previous knowledge of this car is the inconsistent backstory on the the VIN. It goes to credibility of the seller. To some it may not matter, but it might be a problem for others. To me, I don't think it would make a price difference, but I would want to know which story is true. If I were looking at the car, I'd look under the trunk carpet about 30 seconds after I arrived.

[Mike W.]

I haven't seen the car, so I can't really comment on either it's value or worth, but I can on BMWs specifically and euro cars in general. With few exceptions, you don't make money on them if you do the build. You don't break even. If you sell it for half of what you have in it, you're doing good. The cars are a passion, not an investment, or at least not a wise one. A few cars, all with 2 doors, are exceptions, such as some 2002s, some E9s, some MB convertibles. Not much else outside of some certain hand built, mostly red cars from Italy.

[Tammer in Philly]

no need to comment on the vin situation, it seems to be a legitimately represented vehicle.

Perhaps it is now, and maybe it was to the buyer at the time of the last transaction, but if that's true the car was misrepresented to the online community for a long time. Having been around this community since before the time of Operation Hartge, this whole thing casts a rather dim light on the car.

That said, I hope TT finds a buyer at the price he wants. It won't be me.

-tammer

[Mike W.]

Perhaps it is now, and maybe it was to the buyer at the time of the last transaction, but if that's true the car was misrepresented to the online community for a long time. Having been around this community since before the time of Operation Hartge, this whole thing casts a rather dim light on the car.

That said, I hope TT finds a buyer at the price he wants. It won't be me.

-tammer

That. All of it. Especially the italicized part.

[mooseheadm5]

I just looked over the Cardomain pages. Wow, that was a lot of work (I wasn't here for the original build.) I love that paint color, and it must have been incredibly time consuming to change it from Schwarz. Removing everything from the engine bay, interior, trunk, and undercarriage to change the color from black to blue must have cost a fortune in labor. They even got under the seats, inside frame rails, and behind wiring harnesses without any hint overspray where it shouldn't be. Truly an unbelievable job.

[grahamular]

I just looked over the Cardomain pages. Wow, that was a lot of work (I wasn't here for the original build.) I love that paint color, and it must have been incredibly time consuming to change it from Schwarz. Removing everything from the engine bay, interior, trunk, and undercarriage to change the color from black to blue must have cost a fortune in labor. They even got under the seats, inside frame rails, and behind wiring harnesses without any hint overspray where it shouldn't be. Truly an unbelievable job.

Those Germans do good work

[RoyW]

As someone who buys and sells cars. As someone who has painted and restored these cars, I think $25k is very fair. The car stock in this kind of condition is worth $15k. Ron P has sold pleanty of cars in that range with no where near the power. I would not want to pay $25k only because we all want a deal, but to write a check and get in and drive it for $25k is a deal when looking at time labor and material to build. Those saying it is not worth it, probably do not have the experience knowledge and wallet to to build or buy it. Not trying to be an ass and I have no knowledge to judge someone's wallet, but I do feal that blanket statements about cost and what it is worth should not be thrown around flipintly.

All the best to the new owner when it changes hands. Call me in two years and I would be a buyer, so treat it gently

Well said.The people on this board are often the worst enemy. Not all E28's are old junkers and this is clearly a great one. My rule is about 60% of investment if I am lucky. I am sure this car is not reaching that bogie at 25k$

Well said by both posters, IMO.

And, as someone who has invested big $ into a couple of vinatge 80's BMWs, e.g., e28s and e30s, and sold them in the 60% of investment ballpark area, I concur! Many times people are lucky to get 20% to 40% of the invested value, but that, more often than not, is a function of the type and quality of the "enhancements", not to mention the base car condition, mileage, and history, as well as the seller's reputation.

-RoyW

-RoyW

[rlomba8204]

If you're not in the market, you're in no place to judge how appropriate that amount might be.

This is completely untrue. Whether or not you have the means and desire to acquire something does not have any bearing on whether or not you are fit to judge its worth.

The issue is not the right to make a judgment, it is the nature of the internet, where due to the absolute freedom from the normal consequences of insulting people, you see people who seem to have provocation as their main purpose. So, fwiw, I agree with both you and Jeremy. Given that the car is in GC it is fair game for discussion but -- and granted it is a subjective call -- there is a fair amount of "sport" it seems in showing how much people can ding cars. Kind of like when you were in school and there were some kids who would constantly beg to be called on. Generally, the more intelligent kids kept their mouths shut, paid careful attention, and took notes. They didn't feel a need to call attention to themselves.

I have no particular knowledge of this car, other than having seen it once at 5erFest and thinking it was a nice car. But for whatever reason, both the original owner and the car have been a lightning rod for what I see as much childishness. There are people who really dislike Duke, and predictably they have chimed in here on que. And, to be fair to them, perhaps the car was misrepresented in the past. So it's a legitimate point, but it's also completely academic right now as well given the car is being sold by a different owner who no one alleges is misrepresenting the car.

As to Duke's potential tall tales with this car -- so be it -- as if that is the first time that something on this forum or on the internet in general has been misrepresented, as if that's a newsflash of some sort. I've been around here long enough to hear many stories about many people. I've learned you make your own judgments about both people and situations, and gossip is worth what you pay for it. Moreover, while I understand the "community" aspect of the equation, and think it has a helpful aspect, it also has the tendency to have a lot of BS associated with it in terms of setting up expectations that in reality have little basis.

That's all a long way of saying that if Duke lied about what this car was in the past, and it is now in the hands of a new owner who is representing it honestly, what Duke did in the past really is his issue to carry for better or worse. But if the new owner is not misrepresenting the car, then all "this" five page does is to muck up the sale of a specialty item in what is already a tough enough economy. But hey, the important thing is that we get to the bottom of these critically important situations, and that's been accomplished here.

[mooseheadm5]

But hey, the important thing is that we get to the bottom of these critically important situations, and that's been accomplished here.

I'm not sure it has been. There are 3 choices here and the evidence doesn't support one of them and the other two mean there could be problems for a potential buyer.

[Kyle in NO]

To reiterate the point, this thread is not a For Sale thread. It's a discussion in General Conversation, and it appears to be progressing in an appropriate manner.

[oldskool]

Holee shiiit. . .that car is worth 20k all day long.
If TT doesn't get it on ebay he will show it the door to the auction houses. A bath is a bath.

[rlomba8204]

But hey, the important thing is that we get to the bottom of these critically important situations, and that's been accomplished here.

I'm not sure it has been. There are 3 choices here and the evidence doesn't support one of them and the other two mean there could be problems for a potential buyer.

Good point. One thing I still don't understand with all the talk of switching VINs: you have a replacement VIN sticker on the car on the B pillar, right? And aren't there places on the shell / frame of the car (I seem to remember the firewall, for instance) where the VIN is stamped? Wouldn't it be relatively easy to compare the VIN on the B pillar to the stamped-on VIN and that would tell the tale? Wouldn't that be the easiest way to tell the story here? I guess that's why I don't understand all the back and forth and innuendo, etc. . . . . Changing VINs is pretty foolish because it is, at least as far as I understand, pretty easy to catch and the consequences are not trivial.

[mooseheadm5]

1985 and earlier euro cars only have the VIN in two places, so it is relatively easy to change compared to later cars. US cars also have it on the dash.

[Duke]

The Savannah BMW dealership inspected the car and verified the VIN before they ordered a new sticker. They removed and destroyed the original sticker before applying the replacement.

Give them a call as they did this in 2001. I am sure they keep track of things like that.

You guys are dorks

[carnutdallas]

I do not want to and I am not trying to drag this thread to 20 pages, but I do not see the problem with taking two cars and making one. You can only register one VIN. The car was brought into the USA with a VIN that would work. Tony disclosed that. The car has a title with MATCHING VINS TO TITLE. So what is the issue? If the VIN did not match title, you have a huge problem. As a buyer and seller of cars with license to do so, I would not sweat a car with a title that matches the VIN and disclosed to sellers how it came to be. I would note that on a bill of sale. Case closed. Now I am sure some attorney or pinhead at the DMV can make any case they want to, but that is not the spirit of this car or transaction at hand when it sells.

Tony is not trying to cheat anyone or be dishonest about the car. It is two cars that were used to make one. I am not sure which car is the 51% and frankly I do not care. The final product has a VIN and Registration history that is documented and congruent. It really has no bearing on the value of this particular car IMHO. Others seem to think otherwise or want to create a capital case, but I am not sure why when they have no dog in the fight.

Now could components on the car have a different VIN - Yuuuup - (I dislike Hester though). When we section some cars or buy used parts, they have VIN's that do not match the car. I have a plan to build a Diesel Suburban in the future. I will take a K2500 Suburban and drop in the entire power train of a K2500 Duramax Truck - engine, trans, core support, gauge cluster, etc, etc....I will probably use diesel VIN, for emissions testing purposes in TX. I do not see the problem with either the e28 or my dream Suburban....

Am I missing something

[mooseheadm5]

Yes, you may be missing something. If a car is 99.999999999% one car and only the VIN tag and title from another, is that still an issue for you? What about an insurance company?

[Duke]

Yes, you may be missing something. If a car is 99.999999999% one car and only the VIN tag and title from another, is that still an issue for you? What about an insurance company?

The Savannah BMW dealership inspected the car and verified the VIN before they ordered a new sticker. United States Customs inspected and verified the VIN in 2001, 2003 and 2005.

[carnutdallas]

Yes, you may be missing something. If a car is 99.999999999% one car and only the VIN tag and title from another, is that still an issue for you? What about an insurance company?

Not sure that is the case, but lets say it is.......

It has a VIN, it was inspected and verified, it has a Title. The insurance company couldn't care less. If you make a claim, you show them your title; they can look at VIN on car and see title - no issue. They pay claim. For some reason a few of you want to make more out of this, I think. Not sure why. Please do not be offended, I just find it odd that people think this way. Most of you are not buying the car, those of you will never buy the car so why do you care? 100% of the car is covered by the VIN used to issue the title, let the horse rest in peace. I will start by stepping away from the carnage.

Again, things go well for me for the next two years as I hope they do, I will be a buyer for a $20K plus, no BS-well sorted, fast, RonP quality and documented car. I could build one, but I am tired of the time and effort, so I will just pay what it cost for someone else's labor of love.

Peace Out. -Rob

[mooseheadm5]

They pay claim.

Unless they see something that can cause them to deny the claim. If I swapped VINs on a car and anything on the car led the adjuster to believe that VIN I insured was not the VIN that belonged with the car, you can bet they would deny the claim and I'd have to try to fight to prove their assertion was wrong. Of course if I did swap the VIN I wouldn't have a leg to stand on and I'd know it.

For some reason a few of you want to make more out of this, I think. Not sure why.

If you saw that someone may be potentially injured monetarily because something is being misrepresented, would you speak up or would you sit back and hope that they will either figure it out for themselves or hope that they never get to the point where they notice they have been cheated? Would you blame them for not figuring it out themselves?

[grahamular]

Tony and Duke have both stated earlier in this thread that the VIN is stamped on the body and matches the title VIN, and was also verified by other authorities during import/export and registration. So personally that satisfies my initial skepticism over the VIN issue.

The M Registry confusion that I mentioned earlier also appears to have been cleared up, as the donor VIN listed there is now listed as "dead" and without the TCD modifications http://www.bmwmregistry.com/detail.php?id=3655 .

Is a very well-executed and maintained US-spec M535i clone with a ton of performance additions worth $25k? I have no idea, but I don't think the discussion here is going to decide that one way or the other...until it's sold.

-Graham

[mooseheadm5]

The M Registry confusion that I mentioned earlier also appears to have been cleared up, as the donor VIN listed there is now listed as "dead" and without the TCD modifications http://www.bmwmregistry.com/detail.php?id=3655 .

That isn't the Arktis car. He removed the Arktis car completely from the registry.

[OcCoupe]

This is a PM that I sent to TT last week. Please read it and don't make any judgements based on opinion, this needs to be based on facts.

***Hi Todd,

I sell cars for a dealership in California, my wife is a lawyer in the state of California and also a Federal attorney. I mention this so that you know I am not making anything up. I don't feel that you know the severity of the situation with this car, nor do I think you are consciously out to screw anyone; but unfortunately you now own the problem. Altering, changing, or modifying a VIN is fraud any way you look at it. Importing and registering a car that has a known VIN issue is also perpetrating fraud.

TT wrote:
Guys...this isn't Duke's car anymore, it's my car. It is legally titled in Arizona, has been legally titled in GA and TN and has gone through inspections with US Customs a hand full of times, the State of Arizona (I was present for that one) and BMW itself.
If you have a problem with Duke, then take it up with him. Please do not involve me or my car. I do not appreciate the slander.


As far as I understand this car is illegally registered in Arizona and has been illegally registered in Georgia and Tennessee.

In the state of California, and probably the other 49, a car that is wearing a VIN other than what was assigned to that chassis by the manufacturer is considered tampered with and becomes something that I cannot legally represent. Everything about the car is illegal. The documentation, the title, the fraudulent VIN swap and for what to get the car imported??? It is beyond a bastard it is unsellable and could cause someone to commit interstate fraud as well as federal RICO violations if the car were sold or sold out of state. This is not the car that the title says it is. You can’t even register or drive this car legally. I don’t know how to get around this, get a salvaged/destroyed title? Apply for and have a VIN assigned by the DMV like they do on a trailer or kit car? VINs are a serious thing it is an official international identification. Tampering with a VIN is a serious offense

That said I think you need to consider this, end the Ebay auction until you have spoken to an attorney. You wouldn't want to find out the hard way that I am right and that you have sold and committed a federal offense. There are people out there that would love to point fingers and report you/your car to the authorities. I would also ask the moderators on the board mye28 forum to lock and delete the thread regarding this car before it gets more out of hand and goes further south than it already has.
***



I don't like being lied to and I especially don't like it when someone tries to lie to members of this forum as if we are too stupid to figure it out. I have been contacted by a few members that have assured me that a VIN change has occurred on this car and that it is being covered up. IF this is the truth then there is much to be concerned about. I am not a lawyer, I've noticed that our resident attorneys have stayed away from commenting on this.

I am not trying to ruin the sale or validity of this car; but people need to understand how serious this scenario is and if it is true then any potential buyer needs to know as I would want to know. This isn't something as casual as oh yeah the odometer stopped working last week and that was like 20 miles ago.

By the way it wasn't until later that I realized I had addressed Tony as Todd.

[grahamular]

The M Registry confusion that I mentioned earlier also appears to have been cleared up, as the donor VIN listed there is now listed as "dead" and without the TCD modifications http://www.bmwmregistry.com/detail.php?id=3655 .

That isn't the Arktis car. He removed the Arktis car completely from the registry.

Ah, right! Now I'm confusing myself....

[rmiddendorf]

The M Registry confusion that I mentioned earlier also appears to have been cleared up, as the donor VIN listed there is now listed as "dead" and without the TCD modifications http://www.bmwmregistry.com/detail.php?id=3655 .

That isn't the Arktis car. He removed the Arktis car completely from the registry.

Ah, right! Now I'm confusing myself....

This thread doesn't need any more confusion!