E12 M535i was hit while parked in my driveway. *OLD THREAD*

[cgraff]

Really it boils down to the fact that they have to repair the damage to the state it was before. It really should not matter if it was a rust bucket and about to collapse under its own weight; they have to repair your property to the condition it was previously: right down to cleaning the driveway, fixing the grass and replacing the rose bushes. The problem is, you will have to fight to make them do it. See what this adjuster comes back with and just know that you might have to request a new adjuster with collectable car knowledge to handle the estimate. Another good thing to have would be an appraisal in its current condition (pre accident) and a estimated value in the restored condition.

Good luck and just think of this time spent as steps to the restoration cause.

Agreed.

Chris, this boils down to your case as follows:

1. Car is rare.
2. Car is in the middle of restoration (see prep for paint, seats recovered inside, receipts, etc).
3. Car is worth approx. $x in restored condition (make list of comparables - but there's probably only a handful)
4. Car is now insured at $6,000 agreed value policy.
5. Their insured hit and fled the scen and damaged to the amount of $x on the car. That is the claim. It is well under the agreed value policy and a restored car. They are liable for it - NOT your insurance company.
6. If they are not willing to 'put it right' or buy an equivalent car in the same condition (which they won't be able to), then they are liable for the amount damaged, no questions asked. If they make noise, tell them they'll be hearing from your lawyer and your insurance company's lawyer. You don't want to do this, as this will cost them more time, effort and $$$$$ than simply paying the claim as is. It's the threat of $$$$ that will get them acting.

-Chris

I don't want to volunteer Adam Wilson, but I'm sure he can help with a letter on my behalf (as the M535i SIG), or I can do it directly as well, to that insurance company re: the provenance of the E12 M535i and re: the claim you're filing.

[rlomba8204]

There is good advice here but people are becoming too quick to argue before there is reason to do so, and the reason here is that you haven't received a number back from the insurer yet.

I am not afraid to argue, and I am not afraid to be very direct, but there is a time to do that and in my judgment going to that mode now is somewhat premature and risks making the situation more difficult than it needs to be.

That aside, there certainly may be need for escalation, but again it is my judgment that the people here are allowing their particularized knowledge of this car to inform the judgment that everyone knows what they know, and that is simply not the case. Now if this were an M1 or a gullwing, different story -- the adjuster would know the car. But it is a limited production late 1970s BMW sedan. You have to expect this kind of thing and if you do not you risk coming off as an impatient child. Chris, I don't think you came off that way, fwiw, from what you relayed. The significance of this point is that when you prematurely escalate, you come off as insecure and that betrays weakness from a negotiating perspective.

Chris Graff, not to pick on your point about the lawyer, but it provides a good segway of what I am trying to illustrate here: the other side should know that you will have counsel and that the other side will be hearing from you without you explicitly stating so. That is the posture you want to convey, and doing so is a combination of tone, presentation, and how you handle yourself. If you are good and you know what you are doing, you should never need to make a threat of any sort. It is unspoken and that is far more effective in convincing the other side.

Chris K, again good luck with this. Be patient and persistent with them and don't overlook the grounds damage either. That is more of your time wasted here frankly from this jackass kid.

[cgraff]

Chris Graff, not to pick on your point about the lawyer, but it provides a good segway of what I am trying to illustrate here: the other side should know that you will have counsel and that the other side will be hearing from you without you explicitly stating so. That is the posture you want to convey, and doing so is a combination of tone, presentation, and how you handle yourself. If you are good and you know what you are doing, you should never need to make a threat of any sort. It is unspoken and that is far more effective in convincing the other side.

Chris K, again good luck with this. Be patient and persistent with them and don't overlook the grounds damage either. That is more of your time wasted here frankly from this jackass kid.

Ray, I see your point, and agree 100%. I didn't mean to come off combative or presumptuous - I apologize. Obviously we'll have to wait and see what the adjuster comes back with. And I agree 100% on the posture and tone that one ought to convey. I was just writing very quickly and probably should have spent more time on the post.

-CG

[mooseheadm5]

So, I have to endure the weekend wondering how I'm going to proceed next week. I have no real info. I have no idea what they'll come back with. It's like a riddle, wrapped in an enigma, smothered in secret sauce.

But seriously, he hasn't offered you $2 and tried to total the car. It sounds like he is somewhat sympathetic (for an adjuster) so you should actually feel pretty good about how that went, even though it was a circus of you jumping through hoops.

[rlomba8204]

Chris Graff, not to pick on your point about the lawyer, but it provides a good segway of what I am trying to illustrate here: the other side should know that you will have counsel and that the other side will be hearing from you without you explicitly stating so. That is the posture you want to convey, and doing so is a combination of tone, presentation, and how you handle yourself. If you are good and you know what you are doing, you should never need to make a threat of any sort. It is unspoken and that is far more effective in convincing the other side.

Chris K, again good luck with this. Be patient and persistent with them and don't overlook the grounds damage either. That is more of your time wasted here frankly from this jackass kid.

Ray, I see your point, and agree 100%. I didn't mean to come off combative or presumptuous - I apologize. Obviously we'll have to wait and see what the adjuster comes back with. And I agree 100% on the posture and tone that one ought to convey. I was just writing very quickly and probably should have spent more time on the post.

-CG

Chris,
No worries. The thing is, that motivates my thinking here, is that my wife and I are both attorneys and while we rarely discuss projects or clients, one of the things we both routinely express amazement about is how many times lawyers are involved when there is no need whatsoever, IF the clients would be reasonable and try to see the other side's perspective. That's not to express agreement with the other side, or admit that your side has no merit, but rather just an attempt to take a few steps in the other person's shoes.

Here, if it were me, and I saw things were trending in a less than ideal direction, I would have said something like this to the adjuster:

"Hey, I know that this is not a car with which you may be familiar, and that may make your job difficult in terms of State Farm reaching what I believe to be a reasonable settlement figure. Is there a way I could facilitate that adjustment process? For example, I am in the BMWCCA and we have people who are very knowledgeable of the market with respect to niche vehicles. Could I have you speak to such a person? Or maybe send you some research from Hemmings or other such publications? I assume that State Farm is a 'stand up' company and so that the real difficulty here is going to be trying to find what we both to believe is a reasonable value. Is that fair?"

Not to sound pollyanish. Insurance companies can be extreme scumbags. We all know this. But at the end of the proverbial day, it's not the adjuster's money. He has a job to do, and he has to presumably justify his payouts to a manager or according to some set of internal policies and procedures. If you give him the information he needs to reasonably conclude, and justify, that this car is in fact let's say a $6k car in its current condition, it will be a hell of a lot easier for him to pay you. Plus the fact is that from the simple "human" perspective such an exchange makes it more likely that you and he will have a decent rapport, and makes him more likely to try to do for you what you have just made it easier for him to do (by justifying the car's value). Does that make sense?

So that's not to say that there may not be a place for a firm discussion at some point, but understand that from the insurer's perspective you and I are just another claim and another task, and this is just another old car, UNTIL you show him otherwise. All this other "stuff" -- from "I'm going to call my lawyer" to citing the rareness of the car, is all nonsense and noise at the end of the day to the extent that he doesn't really care and it doesn't help him do his job because he can't take your word or my word for it, because that's just not how things work, as we all know.

Finally, don't foreclose making a claim under your own insurance in this type of situation. I understand the natural hesitancy to do so when you aren't at fault, but at the same time you paid for the insurance. If you have a covered claim why would you not make a claim if you need to do so when the alternative is potentially laying out thousands of dollars of your own money? What's the worst thing that happens? The company drops you? OK. Find another. That's the beauty of the market.

[Kyle in NO]

Actually, having your insurance company HANDLE the claim may be in your best interest. Note that I didn't say pay out, just handle the negotiations. They have documents, know what the car is, and agree with you that the car is rare and worth $6k. Letting them negotiate on your behalf is one of the things you are paying for with a comprehensive insurance policy. They will surely get the money back from State Farm, but they will front you the damages and allow you to be on your way. Your claim will be closed in a matter of days, and then they will do the dirty work behind the scenes to make themselves whole. Its what they do.

[wkohler]

I was definitely aware that it would be a tough road to hoe. I have seen the car, and if I put my non-BMW-enthusiast pants on (they're plaid, BTW), it looks like another old E12 that should go to the crusher.

So, I went into the insurance thing with that mindset. That being the reason that I prepared a list of damaged items along with part numbers, the list and actual replacement prices. It still added up, but as I've been told, you can always subtract from, but not add to.

Fearing the idea of the total, I told the guy that the whole car is getting painted anyway. The damaged parts will be repainted. My airdam needs paint as it is, but it's now beyond just needing some paint. Same with the core support. Since I'd be doing all of the work of stripping the car down, I'm not out any extra effort myself - I just got started earlier. The real drawback is that the car is not drivable, so when the time comes to pull the drivetrain, I'll need to have it trailered.

I figured that having a policy showing an agreed value of $6,000 from an insurance company would suffice, but I agree that I should have said something to the effect of what you suggested in the previous post. I wasn't going on about the provenance, etc of the car to try to make the adjuster buy a number, but to say that this car just cannot be looked at in the same way you'd look at a 1980 528i in similar condition.

The adjuster said that they might want to have the car taken to the shop of my choosing, and that they'd pay for the transport. We'll see if it comes to it, but I'd rather bite the bullet, which isn't as bad as it seems. Really if all they paid for was the core support and the radiator, that would be fine.

The point is that I've not yet gotten an offer from them and will not until Tuesday at the earliest. I just didn't get a good vibe from the meeting, but I did not expect it to go as smoothly as my other experience (faxed an estimate and had a check in two days).

So, now we wait. Pretty sure I'll have an ulcer after this is over.

[BDK]

This sucks Chris,
it will come down to the adjuster and his BMW expertise..
When my wife hooked the M535i's front Mtechspoiler on a parking curb then proceeded to back off of it thus tearing it to shit and trashing it...
I really thought I was screwed...
eventhough it was fully covered...
the adjuster came out,
knew exactly what he was looking at, he owned an e30 and 850ci,
he appreciated the condition of the car and then wrote an estimate that replaced everything on the front end,
mtech spoiler,
fogs,
turns,
eurolights,
grills and sidemarkers..

only thing needed was the mtech spoiler so it made me some extra money to play with to boot...

hopefully you will be as fortunate

[ScottWL38]

If I'm following this correctly, Chris is only asking for the cost of the parts, and not even at retail, and ignoring the cost of labor, paint and even the ultra rare, one of a kind super hybrid rosebush. I would think that would be a heck of a deal for the insurance company and they "should" jump all over it. From the thread, the adjuster doesn't know what the car is or what it's worth. Showing what the value of the car is in an arm's length transaction would, hopefully, go a long way to getting them on board.

Good luck with the whole process, Chris.

[1st 5er]

If necessary, point out the 30K Barrett-Jackson E12.

[rustwrks]

awwhhh man that sucks!!! I talked to Logan (derrith) today he mentioned something like this happened to your car and just came across the post - crappy! -

[Mike W.]

If I'm following this correctly, Chris is only asking for the cost of the parts, and not even at retail, and ignoring the cost of labor, paint and even the ultra rare, one of a kind super hybrid rosebush. I would think that would be a heck of a deal for the insurance company and they "should" jump all over it.

Good luck with the whole process, Chris.

I concur, but some interpert an attempt at a reasonable solution as a sign of weakness. You never know which type you are going to run into.

As an aside, I don't know why insurance companies so often try to hardball for ever last dime on a 1 or 2K settlement when so many are 10 or 20k these days. Just for property.

[SD45T-2]

Actually, having your insurance company HANDLE the claim may be in your best interest. Note that I didn't say pay out, just handle the negotiations. They have documents, know what the car is, and agree with you that the car is rare and worth $6k. Letting them negotiate on your behalf is one of the things you are paying for with a comprehensive insurance policy. They will surely get the money back from State Farm, but they will front you the damages and allow you to be on your way. Your claim will be closed in a matter of days, and then they will do the dirty work behind the scenes to make themselves whole. Its what they do.

How does this work? When Liberty mutual was dicking us around for two weeks, My company wouldn't do shit.
When we mentioned attorney then liberty's attitude changed,and a reasonable offer was given.

Chris, sorry to hear about your ride

[wkohler]

You'd file a claim with your insurance. They'd pay out and then go after them.

I will not be going this route. I have a legitimate reason for not doing so due to the location of the car during the accident.

I'll have an idea of what route we'll be going on my car Tuesday or Wednesday.

I do want to clarify that I provided the list of parts damaged to help the adjuster figure out what he was looking at and make the job a bit easier. It's my understanding that they're going to figure parts and labor, etc. I did tell the adjuster that literally the entire car is being repainted, so the core support and airdam would be getting new paint anyway. They're just too damaged to make them feasible to reuse. Of course, I'd be perfectly satisfied with being reimbursed for the damaged parts and perhaps a bit towards the actual replacement of the core support.

If my car looked like Adam Wilson's, Frank Haas' or others, then I'd be more upset and also have more of a case for the value of the car.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Everyone always has different information and it's getting hard to figure out what's actually correct.

[Adam W in MN]

If you need me to write anything up as Chris Graff suggested (if it comes to that) let me know. Not sure if it will help and might be more noise in this situation.

[wkohler]

I called State Farm today. It was about 3pm our time (office is in Tempe, AZ). I only had one number, so I talked to a claims handler, who failed at transferring me to another department, but I thoughtfully got their extension before the transfer. Called the number, and was welcomed with "If your car has been declared a total loss and the value has not yet been agreed upon, press 1. Press 2 for all other inquiries." Uhhhh, super.

I pressed 2 and talked to a nice lady with a name. After a couple of tries, we got the right claim number entered and I was transferred to Phil who had been in possession of my claim for a whopping two minutes - actually in the process of reading it when he answered. He said he'd call me in 90 minutes and we could talk further. Great. No problem.

Twenty minutes later, Phil calls me only to ask State Farm's most important question, "What kind of car is this?" I give a brief explanation of it being grey-market. He says that a third-party valuation company will give them an answer, so once he hears back from them, we can proceed. I decided to ask what department I was dealing with, and he said the "Total Loss Department." I asked what that meant as far as the state of my claim and he said that they are going to compare the estimate (I didn't ask for those numbers) to what the value is for the car. Then they'd decide if it was repairable or not. I thought it best to wait for their numbers before mentioning the agreed value policy or really talk any more about my car. I thanked Phil for his time and he sailed on into the sunset, or went back to reading my claim in his cubicle. I'm not sure which.

So, here comes Friday and another weekend. I doubt I'll hear anything tomorrow, but who knows. They won't find any comps, that's for sure.

[johnnye23]

Well at least you know the car is not a total loss Chris. They will likely use any e12 comp they can just to show a low value .

[rmiddendorf]

Dude this is annoying. State Farm that is.

How many E12 M535i's were ever made? There's no way they can total the car for less than $6k.

I get uneasy when mine is in the shop over the weekend for mechanicals without an estimate so can certainly imagine how much this sucks.

Thanks for keeping this thread updated. I try to keep my threads updated until their concluded too.

[rlomba8204]

As you anticipated, the company is having a difficult time looking for comparables. To the extent that you have time and it is feasible for you to do so, attempt to find them some to support your position regarding valuation. You can't beat something with nothing, and here "nothing" is defined by the absence of some sort of comparable.

Good luck with this.

[cgraff]

As you anticipated, the company is having a difficult time looking for comparables. To the extent that you have time and it is feasible for you to do so, attempt to find them some to support your position regarding valuation. You can't beat something with nothing, and here "nothing" is defined by the absence of some sort of comparable.

Good luck with this.

Yup. this goes to my point #3 in my initial post, try to find a set of comparables with which to go back to State Farm on the value of the car. So if they come back with a number, you can ask for their details and then systematically dissect their points, and put out your own valuation assessment through comparables and in addition to that, show your stated value policy.

Perhaps ask Adam if he's got a list of recent sales, or if you can, go back through Hemmings and Roundel and see if you can't find anything. Even going back 10 years is fair since the car is 30 years old now.

Good news is that you now have the name/number of the person working on your claim, so you can go back directly to State Farm.

[Adam W in MN]

Perhaps ask Adam if he's got a list of recent sales, or if you can, go back through Hemmings and Roundel and see if you can't find anything. Even going back 10 years is fair since the car is 30 years old now.

One issue will be finding a list of completed sales. There have been some of the few E12 M535i's in the US listed for sale over the years, but very few have actually sold. And then finding anything remotely comparable to Chris's car is another story (obviously Robert Knowlton's 60k kilometer original and perfect in every way car is not a great comparable.).

[rlomba8204]

That is frustrating. What about sales of nice E12s? If anything this is simply a rarer E12 so that should be a baseline from which to go up, value-wise.

[Blue Shadow]

Just pop RonP's e12 that barrett-jacksoned for over 25k on they asses and let em chew on that.

[1st 5er]

Did someone mention this as the place to start the valuation process from.
Remember your thread.

BARRETT-JACKSON LOT: 412 - 1977 BMW 530I 4 DOOR HARDTOP
Lot Number: 412
Auction: SCOTTSDALE 2009
Sale Price: *$31,900.00

Year: 1977
Make: BMW
Model: 530I
Style: 4 DOOR HARDTOP
Exterior Color: BAHAMA YELLOW
Interior Color: PALAMINO TAN
Cylinders:
Engine Size: 3 LITER
Transmission: 5-SPEED MANUAL
Summary: Modified with front & rear sway bars, Alpina wheels, Scheel seats, a 5-speed, Euro headlights, NOS
Euro bumpers, BBS spoilers and rear headrests. Concorso Italiano BMWCCA's Concours Trophy winner
and was featured in the June 2008 "Bimmer" magazine.
Details: This is a 1977 US spec 530i with a Euro conversion. It has been tastefully modified with front & rear
sway bars, Alpina wheels, Scheel seats, a 5-speed, Euro headlights, NOS Euro bumpers, BBS front and
rear spoilers and rear headrests. This is one of the finest e12's in the country. It has won both Concorso
Italiano BMWCCA's Concours Trophy and also First Place at the CCA's San Diego event in Concours.
This 1977 BMW has the original, dealer installed pin stripe. This car is also featured in the June 2008
"Bimmer" magazine. All of the tools in the tool kit are present as well as the original spare. All of the
stickers under the hood are original and are perfect. The gaskets around the hood, trunk, and windows
are like new as well.
*Price Includes Buyers Commission

It's was no "M" car, but it let's them know where you are headed.

The baseline, current value, would be your "Agreed Value" insurance policy.

He says that a third-party valuation company will give them an answer

These people need to see these two documents.

When my E12 was broadsided I ended up at an independent appraiser shop
with the Barrett-Jackson info in printed format
along with the NADA Classic Car valuation (not applicable in your situation)
and they returned a judgment that I was well pleased with.

Stay in their face...

[Adam W in MN]

Also the valuation writeup I did on the E12 section of Chris Graff's site m535i.org is a good thing to show them. It's strictly an opinion for some basic guidance to enthusiasts like us, so it's worth what you pay for it on the web. They might see through that if they want some kind of appraiser certification.

I'm by no means like that guy Gerald Roush who passed away recently, but published the Ferrari Market Letter revered as the source of truth for Ferrari valuations.

[sixeye]

This sucks. I hope you get everything taken care of. Dealing with insurance companies is not fun and you're rare car makes it much more of a hassle. My wife's Z3 was backed into in a parking lot and by some miracle, the person who hit us was kind enough to wait over an hour for us to give us all of her info. Even with her full admission of hitting us I still had to have similar discussions with her insurance company because a Z3 hood costs about $3K. They couldn't understand how a little tap that crunched the kidney grills and bowed the hood could lead to a $4200 repair. Lucky for us, when the adjuster came out he was a car guy and had never seen a coupe and basically told my guy at the shop to just do what he needed to get it fixed. While in my eyes you have a much cooler car than ours, no adjuster is going to see it that way. I seriously hope you have a positive outcome with this. Dealing with these people is draining.

[wkohler]

SONOFABITCH.

[Son of a]

SONOFABITCH.

While I probably can guess the reason for the quoted post, I'd rather have you fill us in than be left to speculate. Care to elaborate Chris?

[wkohler]

I will as soon as the fax arrives.

[wkohler]

Okay. Got the call today from Phil in the Total Loss department. They have received a valuation report from Autosource Valuation on my car.

They decided to use a $1,000 1981 528i Automatic with 130,000 miles for sale in PA as my comparable.

They subtracted $45 because my car has 17,000 more miles. Added $285 for a couple of unsubstantiated reasons. Made no adjustments to the differences in equipment, to arrive at a total value of $1,240. They added $115.32 in sales tax, a $25 title fee, and a couple of other things.

The total they offered me, taking the car is $1,599.67. They are guaranteed $57.60 at auction, so the total amount they're offering with me keeping the car is $1,542.07. The law in AZ requires that if a car is declared a total loss to change the title.

I asked Phil to send me the report and told him that my car will not be totaled. I didn't buy the figure they got for the comparable car. I told him to find me an M535i for $1,000 and I will buy it. I added that my car is currently on an agreed value policy for $6,000. He told me to go through them and they'd go through State Farm after paying me. He said he'd fax me the report for my review and call back in a couple of days.

So, that's how the cookie crumbles. I am not letting this car get totaled. That's f*cking stupid since it will be worth nothing when I'm done with it and I probably wouldn't be able to insure it. I wouldn't even bother finishing it if it didn't have a clean title.