Need some advice on a new set of wheels

[C.R. Krieger]

Try this because it will be cheaper and easier and you will learn more: Get a set of 15 inch bottlecaps. Mount 205 tires. Sort the stock suspension and make sure everything is sound. Then go drive the car again and go slow to go fast, preferably at a HPDE. I suspect your conversion will be as stark as that of Saul on the road to Damascus.

haha no thanks. If you are trying to tell me that stock suspension and bottlecaps is a better setup that coilovers and aftermarket wheels and tires I'm going to respectfully disagree. I Somewhere along the way I'll probably end up learning how to drive the damn thing. I appreciate your analogy though!

I had hope, but I guess I was wrong. In saying this, it is abundantly clear that you just don't get it. What Ray suggests is that you equip your car with tires that make the traction limit lower and less sharp. That way, you can learn about transitional handling. You know: that place between "massive understeer and snap oversteer". Camber correction won't teach you a damn thing about that because your tires prevent it by giving you more grip than your experience can deal with. OBVIOUSLY, a lifetime around racing and one autocross event hasn't taught you much more than my not-yet-driving 11-y-o daughter with her similar background. Unless you plan on a lifetime hobby of idiot-proofing your cars so they'll cover up every ham-fisted mistake you ever make (not to mention writing off a couple along the way), you should figure out how to drive your car as it is before changing it.

Incremental progress is the key to developing a good feel for automotive handling dynamics. Your analysis of what's wrong with your car (as opposed to what's wrong with how you drive it) is as sophisticated and valid as if you'd climbed into an Indycar and drove one day - which is to say, not much. Learn to drive slow cars fast. Then you'll be better able to drive fast cars fast.

[jcbe34]

Try this because it will be cheaper and easier and you will learn more: Get a set of 15 inch bottlecaps. Mount 205 tires. Sort the stock suspension and make sure everything is sound. Then go drive the car again and go slow to go fast, preferably at a HPDE. I suspect your conversion will be as stark as that of Saul on the road to Damascus.

haha no thanks. If you are trying to tell me that stock suspension and bottlecaps is a better setup that coilovers and aftermarket wheels and tires I'm going to respectfully disagree. I Somewhere along the way I'll probably end up learning how to drive the damn thing. I appreciate your analogy though!

I had hope, but I guess I was wrong. In saying this, it is abundantly clear that you just don't get it. What Ray suggests is that you equip your car with tires that make the traction limit lower and less sharp. That way, you can learn about transitional handling. You know: that place between "massive understeer and snap oversteer". Camber correction won't teach you a damn thing about that because your tires prevent it by giving you more grip than your experience can deal with. OBVIOUSLY, a lifetime around racing and one autocross event hasn't taught you much more than my not-yet-driving 11-y-o daughter with her similar background. Unless you plan on a lifetime hobby of idiot-proofing your cars so they'll cover up every ham-fisted mistake you ever make (not to mention writing off a couple along the way), you should figure out how to drive your car as it is before changing it.

Incremental progress is the key to developing a good feel for automotive handling dynamics. Your analysis of what's wrong with your car (as opposed to what's wrong with how you drive it) is as sophisticated and valid as if you'd climbed into an Indycar and drove one day - which is to say, not much. Learn to drive slow cars fast. Then you'll be better able to drive fast cars fast.

Look, I'm not looking for a career in racing.. I just want to have fun with my car, as it is now. I have obviously put it together the way it is with intentions other than track use or autocrossing and am now trying to find a happy medium. My car will never have bottlecaps or stock suspension because that's not what I want to do with it.. It's a daily driver that I modded to look the way I want it to and now I'm in the process of trying to bring my suspension angles back into spec.. I know my driving skills aren't there, never said I was a pro nor to I expect to ever be one. I was neck and neck with Shawn with a heavier car that's not near as nicely setup for auto-x and that's a good starting point for me. I look forward to learning from the more experienced guys out there and making the changes to my car along the way. Lay off please. I get what you're saying but maybe my goals aren't the same as yours?

[rlomba8204]

. . . I get what you're saying but maybe my goals aren't the same as yours?

If your goal is to learn how to drive, you will need to understand how the car transitions, and you are not going to do that with your current set-up. That's all there really is to it.

[DaRedRocket]

There's no winning on here Johnathan...You just have to stick with what you know/like.

Since this thread has already been hijacked to the extreme, I'll just continue on...I'd recommend getting your suspension dealt out and then report back with the dynamics.

Camber plates, adjustable sway bar links, and a strut spacer will help greatly in your tuning. Is you current sway bar adjustable? If so I'd loosen it up a notch or two to tune out some of the understeer; if you have a rear adjustable bar you can make that stiffer to tune out understeer as well but it may push you into oversteer. Tire pressures also play a big part in the dynamics of the car. What rates are you running?

Having pushed both sets of wheels I own hard (16X8 w/ 225/50's all around, and 17X8/9 w/ 225/45, 235/45's), with the way my suspension is setup there is very little to no difference in handling between the two even though people swear staggered setups are prone to massive amounts of understeer and less responsiveness from the larger diameter wheels...However the 17's are lighter than the 16's so that may contribute to the differentiation from what normally happens.

[CSBolger]

Opus was pretty douchey/hypocritical /defensive/arrogant/etc...

[FirstFives Dictator]

I should also say that, up to close to the limit, I get surprising lateral grip on asphalt from 195-70-14 Dunlop Sport A2 on my bone stock US E12.

Probably because the soft suspension keeps all 4 tires planted.

I've found the stiffer you make these cars, the more difficult it is for them to have good grip. Like every flaw gets amplified with stiffer springs shocks and swaybars. I guess...

[Rich Euro M5]

For those that want to understand how various suspension and tire changes influence handling I suggest purchasing Chassis Engineering by Herb Adams.

Rich

[Opus V]

"Yes, and a fraternity brother of mine had a late-'70s Civic with a roll cage, turbo, nitrous, and 13x8 wheels with JC Whitney flares. The point is that "anything" "can" be done, but nobody here has said Opus is installing flares like the ones you can get from Zaprace. We're talking stock bodywork."

Actually i have that body kit(orange). Rubbing against the fender was never the main issue. At the moment it looks like 9" in front, 10.5" in back, compomotive cross spoke(can't remember the name) style wheels with small spacers, on paper everything fits, so we'll see.

I know a lot of people have talked about performance issues, i've talked to a couple individuals through email that have actually put similar sized tires on their car. They say the only downside is when your going straight at high speeds but cornering is greatly improved. So i'm not sure where all these horrible predictions on handling are coming from, but i have a feeling it isn't from personal experience.

[DaRedRocket]

Don't worry Opus, I'm fully with you in your motion to mount whatever wheels you'd like. It is your car, do what you want

Something that may help you in your fitment calculations (if any) is this wheel/tire calculator. With a little measuring and this tire calculator you can go a long way... Get ready to do a lot of fender rolling and possibly a mild stretch, but it is all in the name of the wheel game

[C.R. Krieger]

At the moment it looks like 9" in front, 10.5" in back,
I know a lot of people have talked about performance issues, i've talked to a couple individuals through email that have actually put similar sized tires on their car. They say the only downside is when your going straight at high speeds but cornering is greatly improved.

So ask yourself why they aren't posting here. If you're going to question the experience of those of us who disagree with your plans, you also have to ask about their experience.

So i'm not sure where all these horrible predictions on handling are coming from, but i have a feeling it isn't from personal experience.

I don't have to jump off a cliff to know it hurts. I don't have to snap roll an E36 M3 to know it happens. Likewise, I don't have to drive your car with higher limits to know that those limits are both sharper and more ragged. I know that exceeding the limits in such a car is both more difficult to recover as well as more dangerous.

I have been teaching people to drive at speed for most of your life and I have had to deal with far too many over-inflated egos and senses of immortality propped up by the fact that the car covers up their every mistake. They refuse to accept my input because they drive so far under their cars' limits that they never see the consequences of their shortcomings. They will continue to make those mistakes faster and faster until one finally 'bites' them - and then they'll blame the car. Sound familiar?

[Bimmerguy2002]

I've found the stiffer you make these cars, the more difficult it is for them to have good grip. Like every flaw gets amplified with stiffer springs shocks and swaybars. I guess...

This is what we call "tuning" for each track, stiffer doesnt always mean better. Even for autocross, body roll is important-you just need to tune the alignment of the car. You no longer have the dynamic camber curve if there is no roll, which may or may not be beneficial.

[Opus V]

"So ask yourself why they aren't posting here."

They don't use these forums, i never said i met them here. Honestly they probly have better things to do, unlike me

C.R. Krieger, based on what you said i'm going to assume you've driven a e28 with 9" in front and 10.5" in back. what were the major issues you noticed?

[jcbe34]

What are you planning on using the car for? You never answered that question and it's very important.

Oh and compomotive cross-spokes are called CXN's

[wkohler]

"So ask yourself why they aren't posting here."

They don't use these forums, i never said i met them here. Honestly they probly have better things to do, unlike me

C.R. Krieger, based on what you said i'm going to assume you've driven a e28 with 9" in front and 10.5" in back. what were the major issues you noticed?

You see that quote button on every post?

USE IT.

[C.R. Krieger]

"So ask yourself why they aren't posting here."

They don't use these forums, i never said i met them here.

And yet you think they know more about E28 handling dynamics than we do ...

C.R. Krieger, based on what you said i'm going to assume you've driven a e28 with 9" in front and 10.5" in back. what were the major issues you noticed?

Gee, a challenge. No, I have not, and probably would not, drive such a pig. Did you not read what I wrote? Think "massive understeer" without the power to induce "snap oversteer". That about sum it up?

[DaRedRocket]

Opus, are you trying to build a track rat or just something to look good on the street?

[Shawn D.]

Yes, and a fraternity brother of mine had a late-'70s Civic with a roll cage, turbo, nitrous, and 13x8 wheels with JC Whitney flares. The point is that "anything" "can" be done, but nobody here has said Opus is installing flares like the ones you can get from Zaprace. We're talking stock bodywork.

Actually i have that body kit(orange).

O RLY?!?!?!? Let's see it, big guy. I have serious doubts that somebody who has no clue what the bolt circle of all 5-lug BMWs is would 1) know about that body kit, 2) have purchased it, and 3) would then come on here asking about what would "fit."

I call bullshit.

[1st 5er]

O RLY?!?!?!? Let's see it, big guy.

I call bullshit.

X2

[option00002]

[Opus V]

Been talking to Chris Randall(the guy that drives the orange e28) for over 2 months, i've known about him and zaprace for years, i bought the M5 with plans to get that kit on my car, and i've had the body kit including a used rear wing(saved about 150USD) for a few weeks now.


But at the moment, it's in the shop, we're going to attach the rear wing and touch up the paint a bit, unfortunatly i have to wait 4-6 weeks for the compomotive wheels to be done before puting the fender flare and front air dam on, otherwise i'd really be screwed when it came to making this stuff fit.

If you don't believe me that's fine, I didn't come here for approval but i might post some pics when it's finished.


"Opus, are you trying to build a track rat or just something to look good on the street?"

It's mostly for looks, and better cornering, and i wouldn't take it on the track till i was 100% sure the engin was in good condition, it's pushing 148k miles.

"Gee, a challenge. No, I have not, and probably would not, drive such a pig. Did you not read what I wrote? Think "massive understeer" without the power to induce "snap oversteer". That about sum it up?"

It wasn't a challenge, i was asking for your advice, but in a way, this does prove my point, people that are currently driving a car with wheels around 9-9.5 front and 10-10.5 back have no complaints. I don't doubt your knowledge, but i do trust the opinion of someone that's currently driving the set-up i'm going for.

[Shawn D.]

Been talking to Chris Randall (the guy that drives the orange e28) for over 2 months, i've known about him and zaprace for years, i bought the M5 with plans to get that kit on my car, and i've had the body kit including a used rear wing for a few weeks now.

Well, then, I think this is a record for a poster failing to mention (or withholding) a critical piece of information. Why did it take you until the fourth page of a contentious thread to add this "tidbit"?

[DaRedRocket]

It's mostly for looks, and better cornering, and i wouldn't take it on the track till i was 100% sure the engin was in good condition, it's pushing 148k miles.

Although increasing your traction foot print does help sometimes, it also comes at a cost. Such large wheels won't really do much justice during turn in as it makes the car feel much heavier than it really is, the car will also be less responsive to steering input when in corners. Also, unless you're running CO's and plan on carrying A LOT of speed into corners, 9" in front, and 10.5" in the rear is a bit of overkill, I'd suspect you'll be fitting different wheels when you do eventually track the car (if at all).

However, since you plan on fitting these flares that obviously increase fender room and alter the standard fitment an E28 would have, not many of us car really chime in to what would be the best fitment. I suspect you'll have to use some spacers to properly fill the wheel well, unless you plan on getting negative offsets on this new set of wheels.

[Opus V]

Yea, i've found some good spacers that are TUV(something like that) approved in germany so they should get the job done. Compomotive unfortunatly has high offsets, i think the lowest option i had for the front was 11, so spacers are a must.

Shawn D. i guess i just didn't think it was important since the problem of rubbing the fender was already taken care of, but your right i probly should've thrown that piece of info into the OP

[C.R. Krieger]

It's mostly for looks, and better cornering, and i wouldn't take it on the track till i was 100% sure the engin was in good condition, it's pushing 148k miles.

FWIW, I have never had one with that few miles on track ...

Gee, a challenge. No, I have not, and probably would not, drive such a pig. Did you not read what I wrote? Think "massive understeer" without the power to induce "snap oversteer". That about sum it up?

It wasn't a challenge, i was asking for your advice, but in a way, this does prove my point, people that are currently driving a car with wheels around 9-9.5 front and 10-10.5 back have no complaints. I don't doubt your knowledge, but i do trust the opinion of someone that's currently driving the set-up i'm going for.

Read Austin's post, just above yours. Understand that, even though he doesn't completely oppose your idea, he's saying exactly what I've been saying. Even folks who have driven on combinations like you want agree that it is not the best for performance. Do whatever you want for looks, but understand that your taste in wheels and tires runs counter to performance unless you have done some outrageous things to your engine and it can break loose a much bigger tire in the rear and you can safely drive the car that way (which is likely to take years of 'on the edge' driving experience). The best performing wheel and tire combination is not what you're doing for looks. It is much more conservative, and it is not staggered.