MyE28.com

Posted: **Oct 11, 2012 2:16 AM**

I spoke with Paul today for over an hour and a half. Now that im actually back on the island with a much better budget in mind, I think I will be sticking to a decent build on the M30. Getting too old to start doing crazy motorswaps and stuff.

Posted: **Oct 11, 2012 6:41 PM**

Paul what is the pricing on this? I am interested.

Posted: **Oct 12, 2012 12:25 PM**

europartconnect wrote:Paul what is the pricing on this? I am interested.

Your B35 core

Full CNC port
Mang/bronze guides installed and sized
Multi angle valve job
Surfaced
Cleaned, prepped and ready for assembly

Introductory price $1265.00 U.S.

Posted: **Oct 12, 2012 1:46 PM**

You sell your work too cheap, Paul. No wonder you always have plenty of it to do!

Posted: **Oct 12, 2012 2:37 PM**

Wow thats pretty damn reasonable.
Even cheap enough for me to think about it!

Perhaps I missed it earlier in the crapfest, but does this increase the chamber volume?
Thanks

Posted: **Oct 12, 2012 3:49 PM**

mooseheadm5 wrote:You sell your work too cheap, Paul. No wonder you always have plenty of it to do!

Head is bare ready for assembly.

With all new valve train and camshaft the average customer would have roughly $2400.00 in a complete head.

How many M30 customers do you think would purchase a completed ready to install cylinder head priced in the mid two thousand dollar price range? I ask this question for some feedback because in my experience most won't.

Paul

Posted: **Oct 12, 2012 4:02 PM**

ElGuappo wrote:Wow thats pretty damn reasonable.
Even cheap enough for me to think about it!

Perhaps I missed it earlier in the crapfest, but does this increase the chamber volume?
Thanks

Chamber volume remains 65cc

Paul

Posted: **Oct 12, 2012 4:51 PM**

paul burke wrote:
mooseheadm5 wrote:You sell your work too cheap, Paul. No wonder you always have plenty of it to do!
Head is bare ready for assembly.

With all new valve train and camshaft the average customer would have roughly $2400.00 in a complete head.

How many M30 customers do you think would purchase a completed ready to install cylinder head priced in the mid two thousand dollar price range? I ask this question for some feedback because in my experience most won't.

Paul

Indeed most won't, but you don't do work for most people.

Posted: **Oct 12, 2012 5:21 PM**

While most won't, I think anyone willing to spend the money on a build that warrants that kind of head will find that price very appealing.

Posted: **Oct 12, 2012 5:40 PM**

SBF 195cc Competition Package, No EGR or Air Pump, Strip Head, 58cc chambers, Stud Mount, complete w/parts.

$1,915.00 (two cylinder heads)

Just Sayin.......................

Posted: **Oct 12, 2012 6:07 PM**

Duke wrote:SBF 195cc Competition Package, No EGR or Air Pump, Strip Head, 58cc chambers, Stud Mount, complete w/parts.

$1,915.00 (two cylinder heads)

Just Sayin.......................

Now toss in camshaft, lifters, push rods and rocker arms===== $3200.00 !!!

Paul

Posted: **Oct 12, 2012 6:54 PM**

Duke just isnt good with numbers less than 17 digits.

Posted: **Oct 12, 2012 7:34 PM**

mooseheadm5 wrote:You sell your work too cheap, Paul. No wonder you always have plenty of it to do!

You weren't supposed to tell him that until AFTER I get mine!!

Posted: **Oct 12, 2012 8:07 PM**

paul burke wrote:Now toss in camshaft, lifters, push rods and rocker arms===== $3200.00 !!!

Paul

Good point, but you get two more cylinders.

Posted: **Oct 12, 2012 10:53 PM**

Duke wrote:
paul burke wrote:Now toss in camshaft, lifters, push rods and rocker arms===== $3200.00 !!!

Paul
Good point, but you get two more cylinders.

I'd rather be faster with two less cylinders

Posted: **Oct 12, 2012 11:03 PM**

I will say that I tried to contact Paul because of his reputation and background. I can tell from his posts that he knows his stuff. i did get hold of him by email once or twice and communication was initially positive but then went to non existent after that despite him stating he was going to do some work in a certain time frame and get back to me it never happened. I was not out of pocket but it was quite unfortunate as i am the kind of customer that according to this thread that is up Paul's alley

Posted: **Oct 13, 2012 1:16 AM**

Good & Tight wrote:
Duke wrote:
paul burke wrote:Now toss in camshaft, lifters, push rods and rocker arms===== $3200.00 !!!

Paul
Good point, but you get two more cylinders.
I'd rather be faster with two less cylinders

Zing!

Why do people compare extremely low production/ one off pieces to off the shelf domestic V8 heads?

I could throw a set of $3000 bare heads up there for comparison.

Posted: **Oct 13, 2012 9:38 AM**

Good & Tight wrote:I'd rather be faster with two less cylinders

Ain't gonna happen....show me a M30 that produces over 450 HP naturally aspirated all day, every day. Not some freak BMW racing engine of the 70's either.

itsbrokeagain wrote:Why do people compare extremely low production/ one off pieces to off the shelf domestic V8 heads?

If Paul were to have a run of 50-100 heads, the price would come down. Remember this is a computer operated machine that can reproduce the cuts exactly, every time, 24 hours a day, seven day a week.

Posted: **Oct 13, 2012 9:47 AM**

And M30 heads are just gonna fly off the shelf fast enough to warrant making 30 Port jobs. I think there are less than 30 seriously done M30s on here....so comes down to time vs money. Would you rather build a motor and pay the rent? Or spend quite a few hours that you will not get paid for upfront, and then sit on that work for a year, two years even more? Are you willing to fork that investment out of pocket and sit on it?

For a series of low production work, price will always be greater than demand...Paul doesnt build motors to cater to 1,000s of people.

And also what does being normally aspirated have to do with having 2 more cylinders? You didnt specify how two extra cylinders was special, so in G&Ts case, junkyard bits rocking the socks off your average V8 sounds like a grand time to me

Posted: **Oct 13, 2012 9:54 AM**

itsbrokeagain wrote:For a series of low production work, price will always be greater than demand...Paul doesnt build motors to cater to 1,000s of people.

"run of 50-100 heads"...................how is that 1,000s of people?

itsbrokeagain wrote:And also what does being normally aspirated have to do with having 2 more cylinders?

Two more cylinder will ALWAYS win. "No replacement for displacement".......be it NA or FI.

With the induction method being the same, a V8 will always produce more than a S6 or V6.

A V10 will produce more than a V8
A V12 will produce more than a V10.

Posted: **Oct 13, 2012 11:35 AM**

itsbrokeagain wrote:And M30 heads are just gonna fly off the shelf fast enough to warrant making 30 Port jobs.
If availability is there and properly advertised and the price is right, yes. I think there are less than 30 seriously done M30s on here....so comes down to time vs money. I doubt there are 30 people in this sandbox who would know one if it bit them in the ass. Cheap motherfuckers.
Would you rather build a motor and pay the rent? "Rather build Audis. BMWs are more or less a hobby." Or spend quite a few hours that you will not get paid for upfront, Assuming this has been done as a CNC activity, the hours and dollars are already invested. and then sit on that work for a year, two years even more? It's called salable inventory. It's a necessary item if you're in the business of selling merchandise. Are you willing to fork that investment out of pocket and sit on it? It's in the nature of the capitalist system. It's one reason why the entrepreneur gets paid what he does. It's called assumption of risk. Or would you prefer that Paul work for free?

For a series of low production work, price will always be greater than demand...Paul doesn't build motors to cater to 1,000s of people.
Hmmm. Seems more people want Paul's stuff than he can turn out. His pricing would seem to be too low, then.

And also what does being normally aspirated have to do with having 2 more cylinders? You didn't specify how two extra cylinders was special, so in G&Ts case, junkyard bits rocking the socks off your average V8 sounds like a grand time to me

What's an "average V8?" Ford's offering one with 506 fwhp . . .
Basic formula for horsepower: fwHp = (BMEP x Sp x Ap) / 132,000.
Where
BMEP = Brake Mean Effective Pressure
Sp = average piston speed in feet per minute
Ap = total piston area in square inches.
132,000 = a constant
Go from 6 cylinders to 8 (a 33% increase) is the easiest way to change the results in this equation. Little tough to go from 6500 rpm to 8700 and have the engine live . . .
And you'll find that BMEP is even tougher to change.
As to pricing and small production runs. You might want to take a look at VAC's website and see what they get for a Stage 3 reworked S38 head. Paul's work is in a different league than the stuff VAC offers, but this offers a data point.

Posted: **Oct 13, 2012 11:39 AM**

Duke wrote: With the induction method being the same, a V8 will always produce more than a S6 or V6.

A V10 will produce more than a V8
A V12 will produce more than a V10.

Umm, no. Bore, stroke, RPM, port design, head design, compression, exhaust, etc. all determine how much power and across what range a motor makes power. This sweeping generalization is completely wrong.

Posted: **Oct 13, 2012 12:03 PM**

mooseheadm5 wrote:This sweeping generalization is completely wrong.

Nope, completely correct for engines that are built to the same performance level. "NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT"!

Keep up the "Duke is wrong" even if you look silly trying.

Posted: **Oct 13, 2012 12:16 PM**

Duke wrote:
mooseheadm5 wrote:This sweeping generalization is completely wrong.
Nope, completely correct for engines that are built to the same performance level. "NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT"!

Keep up the "Duke is wrong" even if you look silly trying.

A V8 is not necessarily larger displacement compared to a 6 cylinder. Don't be an idiot (really difficult, I know.) Does an M73 make more power than every V8 of equal displacement? If a motor is "built to the same performance level" as any other motor, it will have the same performance. That is not the same thing as saying that a motor with equal everything else but larger displacement will yield more power. That is a no brainer.

Posted: **Oct 13, 2012 12:50 PM**

Duke wrote:
mooseheadm5 wrote:
Keep up the "Duke is wrong" even if you look silly trying.

You should stop ramming your ford garbage in every thread like it's the holy grail of engines. I've raced plenty of supercharged cobra's, mustangs, putting down 600+rwhp and have destroyed them. Quit already.

Posted: **Oct 13, 2012 12:54 PM**

There very much is a replacement for displacement. It's called forced induction, as Otis points out. Also, revs are a replacement for displacement, as is efficiency, better head design, etc.

Posted: **Oct 13, 2012 2:41 PM**

Ken H. wrote:
itsbrokeagain wrote:And M30 heads are just gonna fly off the shelf fast enough to warrant making 30 Port jobs.
If availability is there and properly advertised and the price is right, yes. I think there are less than 30 seriously done M30s on here....so comes down to time vs money. I doubt there are 30 people in this sandbox who would know one if it bit them in the ass. Cheap motherfuckers.
Would you rather build a motor and pay the rent? "Rather build Audis. BMWs are more or less a hobby." Or spend quite a few hours that you will not get paid for upfront, Assuming this has been done as a CNC activity, the hours and dollars are already invested. and then sit on that work for a year, two years even more? It's called salable inventory. It's a necessary item if you're in the business of selling merchandise. Are you willing to fork that investment out of pocket and sit on it? It's in the nature of the capitalist system. It's one reason why the entrepreneur gets paid what he does. It's called assumption of risk. Or would you prefer that Paul work for free?

For a series of low production work, price will always be greater than demand...Paul doesn't build motors to cater to 1,000s of people.
Hmmm. Seems more people want Paul's stuff than he can turn out. His pricing would seem to be too low, then.

And also what does being normally aspirated have to do with having 2 more cylinders? You didn't specify how two extra cylinders was special, so in G&Ts case, junkyard bits rocking the socks off your average V8 sounds like a grand time to me
What's an "average V8?" Ford's offering one with 506 fwhp . . .
Basic formula for horsepower: fwHp = BMEP x Sp x Ap.
Where
BMEP = Brake Mean Effective Pressure
Sp = average piston speed in feet per minute
Ap = total piston area in square inches.
Go from 6 cylinders to 8 (a 33% increase) is the easiest way to change the results in this equation. Little tough to go from 6500 rpm to 8700 and have the engine live . . .
And you'll find that BMEP is even tougher to change.
As to pricing and small production runs. You might want to take a look at VAC's website and see what they get for a Stage 3 reworked S38 head. Paul's work is in a different league than the stuff VAC offers, but this offers a data point.

First off there is a difference of people 'wanting' and people 'buying'. After talking with Paul, and doing my own business working on BMWs, we both see a lot of tire kickers and people who are like 'omg thats so awesome I want it', and then nothing happens.

How many people out there really want a CNC ported B35 head? Honestly? The demand is super low for people who will actually BUY. Sure everyone WANTS but the last 3 M30s I overhauled for customers tried to nickel and dime me at every turn...so whos gonna spend $1200?

Second, I never said I wanted Paul to work for free. But at the same time, you have to take into account what your monthly expenses are, see what the demand is for the product you want, and then justify if its worth building an inventory..and in these days the auto market changes so fast most shops dont stock anything to avoid being stuck with product that doesnt move. Look at Pauls S38 throttlebody adaptor...a lot of people were like yea lets make a whole bunch and we will all buy, and only a few ended up coming through.

Posted: **Oct 13, 2012 3:15 PM**

itsbrokeagain wrote:
First off there is a difference of people 'wanting' and people 'buying'. After talking with Paul, and doing my own business working on BMWs, we both see a lot of tire kickers and people who are like 'omg thats so awesome I want it', and then nothing happens.

How many people out there really want a CNC ported B35 head? Honestly? The demand is super low for people who will actually BUY. Sure everyone WANTS but the last 3 M30s I overhauled for customers tried to nickel and dime me at every turn...so who's gonna spend $1200?
Just goes to prove my point about this bunch being fucking cheap.
Second, I never said I wanted Paul to work for free. But at the same time, you have to take into account what your monthly expenses are, see what the demand is for the product you want, and then justify if its worth building an inventory..and in these days the auto market changes so fast most shops don't stock anything to avoid being stuck with product that doesn't move. No different from any other business. Look at Paul's S38 throttlebody adaptor...a lot of people were like yea lets make a whole bunch and we will all buy, and only a few ended up coming through. Only too true.

Which serves to justify Moosehead's approach:
1. Have the design in hand, along with reliable sources for the relevant components.
2. Clearly announce the proposal to market said part--UCAB, cam, head (stripped or complete), whatever.
"Plan is to make "x" of these, subject to a minimum total run of "y" pieces."
3. Obtain firm commitments. "Firm" here means prepaid, in cash, PayPal or credit card. Acknowledge said order, with funds going into an escrow account.
If the run size isn't met within a specified period, all monies are refunded.
4. Confirm funds receipt and provide an equally firm delivery date.
5. Make it happen. No BS, no excuses.

Do this and you markedly reduce the odds of having unsold inventory. Your street cred also goes up.

Posted: **Oct 13, 2012 3:54 PM**

mooseheadm5 wrote:There very much is a replacement for displacement. It's called forced induction, as Otis points out. Also, revs are a replacement for displacement, as is efficiency, better head design, etc.

Duke wrote:With the induction method being the same, a V8 will always produce more than a S6 or V6.

RTFP

Good & Tight wrote:You should stop ramming your ford garbage in every thread like it's the holy grail of engines. I've raced plenty of supercharged cobra's, mustangs, putting down 600+rwhp and have destroyed them. Quit already.

I said nothing about a Ford engine...........and sure you have.

X-Box don't count.

Posted: **Oct 13, 2012 4:14 PM**

Duke wrote:
Duke wrote:With the induction method being the same, a V8 will always produce more than a S6 or V6.
RTFP

And it still isn't always true.

MyE28.com

CNC ported B35 heads