First wreck..

[robertt]

What do you guys think? is it worth fixing? or would i be better off parting it out..

any opinion is helpful at this point..

- Alec[/quote]

Your cars looks like it was pretty nice. I'd fix it myself.
Garageboy had most of it right on having a shop repair the car. I didn't like the comment " And this assumes the shop doesn't try to pass along the cost of a Cellette rental directly to you" which sounds like he works for State Farm. Anyway I have experience fixing LOTS of E28's with this damage. I have been working at a BMW bodyshop since 1984. There is NO frame damage, as you missed the bumpers. The do it yourself option is as follows:
Go to pick- a- part and find a used E28, preferably in Bronzit and pull the hood, fenders , grilles, A/C, radiator and lamps. Figure a couple hundred dollars at most. Also bring a portable saw and cut off the core support. Drive your car by a few local shops and ask how much to weld on the used support after you strip the car down to nothing and TOW IT TO THEM. This is probably a six hour job. You will want to drill out the spot welds on the used core support ( easy job) and bring it to them clean and ready to weld on. They will have to do a little repair on the front of the aprons too, so figure another four to six hours. All in I'd guess 12 to 15 hours of LABOR. Maybe $700. Shop around till you get close in price. If you want them to paint it you can bring the sheet metal and have them paint that along with the core support. Figure another $700 to $1000.
Option 2, find a $500 non runner and SWAP everything. currently there are three E28's at the local pick-part that are next to perfect shape so I know there must be lots out there.
Bob

[garageboy]

Garageboy had most of it right on having a shop repair the car. I didn't like the comment " And this assumes the shop doesn't try to pass along the cost of a Cellette rental directly to you" which sounds like he works for State Farm.

Hahahaha. Me working for an insurance company? In this lifetime? Bwahahahaha. That made milk come out my nose... thanks for the amusing thought...

The fact is now that the E28 is so far past its prime, the only people who have the jigs for the Cellette are shops that worked on E28s since 1984, or else a shop has to rent the jigs from Cellette directly, right? If it's 2012 and I have to rent the jigs, someone is gonna pay for it, right? That's going to be the customer, whether the car had collision insurance or not. Did I get it wrong? I'm happy to be corrected if I got it twisted.

Anyway I have experience fixing LOTS of E28's with this damage. I have been working at a BMW bodyshop since 1984. There is NO frame damage, as you missed the bumpers.

I agree with this assessment. But I think there could be damage to the wheel housings -- one or both sides, especially if there's the space between the door and fender is less than spec.

I guess my concern about the "hey let's have a party and fix this guy's car" approach is that it didn't seem to be the right course for this car since the condition did look quite good, all things considered. If the owner is believing that the car will return to looking like it did prior to the accident, I felt that he would be disappointed with this approach. If he's hoping the car will be "close enough", then this approach could work out just fine. Personally, I am of the mindset that if it will be obvious that the car was repaired ("obvious" meaning that tolerances will be off on fender gaps and things like that), I would rather part it out, take the money from that, and find another one that hasn't been damaged.

As well, if the car was rust-free before, using junkyard parts that have been exposed to the elements is a risk. As you know, cleaning up those parts so that all traces of rust are removed is not easy. It's all time. If he has the time to do that, great. If he pays a shop, forget it. No shop could afford to do that without charging an arm and a leg, which is why they prefer to use new parts when available.

No matter what Spark JR does, he's lucky to have a knowledgeable father, as well as the helpful advice of our little group!

Regards,
.steve.
NYC
1988 528e, 5-speed, 93k miles, The Time Capsule
2001 530i, 5-speed, 113k miles, Almost a Time Capsule

[cddallara]

Parts are not the issue, its the desire to do it or not. Which I totally understand.

LMK

[Mike W.]

I guess my concern about the "hey let's have a party and fix this guy's car" approach is that it didn't seem to be the right course for this car since the condition did look quite good, all things considered. If the owner is believing that the car will return to looking like it did prior to the accident, I felt that he would be disappointed with this approach. If he's hoping the car will be "close enough", then this approach could work out just fine. Personally, I am of the mindset that if it will be obvious that the car was repaired ("obvious" meaning that tolerances will be off on fender gaps and things like that), I would rather part it out, take the money from that, and find another one that hasn't been damaged.

As well, if the car was rust-free before, using junkyard parts that have been exposed to the elements is a risk. As you know, cleaning up those parts so that all traces of rust are removed is not easy. It's all time. If he has the time to do that, great. If he pays a shop, forget it. No shop could afford to do that without charging an arm and a leg, which is why they prefer to use new parts when available.

No matter what Spark JR does, he's lucky to have a knowledgeable father, as well as the helpful advice of our little group!

Regards,
.steve.
NYC
1988 528e, 5-speed, 93k miles, The Time Capsule
2001 530i, 5-speed, 113k miles, Almost a Time Capsule

I may be being a little too brash, it's happened, but not often. My suggestion is that it can be returned to presentable, not perfect. Much more than drivable, but no concours winner. And I acknowledge I haven't even seen the car. But you're location is showing, rust is only a rumor here on the west coast. Our cars have paint whose clearcoat went when Clinton was in office, dashboards that look like road maps, but the sheetmetal is solid. You win some you lose some.

[Roberto]

Sorry to hear that man, I know how it feels. Good luck with the repair!

[SparkJR]

I went to the spot where we have parked the car temporarily parked it today. We plan on towing it to Dave's as soon as the rain clears up. i was planning on snapping some more pictures of the fender/door issue, and the engine bay itself, but the rain made it a little dangerous to have my phone out in the open. so i just disconnected the battery and covers the fuse box with a plastic bag.
Ideally, as stated previously, i'd absolutely LOVE to fix this thing up and have it roadworthy.. i know back to it's previous condition isn't gonna happen anytime soon, but at least driveable.. i can make the cosmetic changes over time..
But where my real fear lies is in the condition of the frame itself. The unnerving response to the door overlapping the fender leads me to believe the frame is tweaked. i have no way of knowing for sure yet, but it wouldn't surprise me. If it really is as simple as you guys say, then i'm not very concerned about the difficulty in replacing of the two fenders, hood, and core support! (not to mention headlights, grille, radiator, and both fans). I've been offered those front body pieces a few times already via PM, one set even being bronzit! My desire to save this car is enormous, considering the condition of the rest of it.... And yeah yeah quite a bit of sentimental value too.

Bottom line is that I need to have the frame inspected, and determine whether or not it is tweaked..

[slimdevil27]

Not sure if this entails anything more sever than previously, but i do remember in order to open the driver door, the front left fender was dented in by the door. is that simply the fender itself moved back or something more serious?

Not necessarily, the body gap is all of 3/16?, Even bolted in the "skin" will shift that much.

You need to remove the hood, bypass the radiator with an appropriate sized section of PVC/metal tube, fill it with water, and take it for a spin.

If the front frame was messed up or any of the critical suspension/steering geometry changed...you'll know it immediately. Shakes, shimmies or pulling and you know you are in a little deeper...if not and it tracks fine then the rest is bolt on/hack and weld.

The last car that I did that took a hit above the bumper was a 94 Toyota Camry. It took the hit all in the left front headlight, the fender was driven back into the door. The car tracked straight at all speeds...replaced the hood, core support, headlight, turn signal and the fender. The fender into the door was all in the fender. Once the new fender was hung in place the body gap at the door was correct. Done. There was damage to the fender support at the front corner, but nothing a hammer and 2x4 didn't handle. All the body gaps lined up, so who cares?

Get a slide hammer from Harbor Freight, one of the adapters that always gets overlooked is a course screw attachment about 4-5 inches long. This screw replaces the adjustment screw on a pair of Vise-Grips and the slide hammer attach's to the end. Clamp on the Vise-Grips and hammer away. This will allow you to "hammer pull" metal.

Very shortly I'll be doing a 78 Volvo wagon. The Volvo took it mostly on the right corner and was slightly more extensive....the fender support was mangled back to the strut tower...same thing, it drives and tracks straight, a rough angle gauge on the strut towers shows the same reading...will be replacing the hood, fender, grill, headlights etc. and cutting and welding a replacement fender support section from the strut tower forward...all it does is support the fender and core support...

I guess my point is that you could literally cut off the front of the car from the strut towers forward and flush with the top of the frame rail.....none of that is structurally imperative for the vehicle to operate, there's nothing critical about a hood or a fender. Ever seen a one piece fiberglass front end?

You missed the frame and bumper, strip it to the point you can drive it a very short distance to check the handling, throw an angle gauge on the struts to see if they are close......

I agree with Mike W on this. I'd fix that in a heartbeat...I highly doubt it bent the strut tower reinforcement, at what? 5-10 MPH? If you would have hit on the bumper, I highly doubt that it would have required anything other than a new bumper and shocks.

Lipo the easy way. Next time aim better and you won't have to buff so much.

P.S. Replace the fan clutch and the water pump. Even at low speed the bearings in both can be damaged and the impeller/hub can be pressed further onto the shaft.

[C.R. Krieger]

I'd take a good look at the fender bolts because, IIRC, those holes are slotted to allow for adjustment. The fender is probably adjustable all the way back to the door and when it got hit, that's what happened. The next place any bending could occur would be with the fender well where the strut mounts. If this part is tweaked, you could have a little trouble getting it back; I don't know. Finally, the frame is down at the bumper level. If your bumper was untouched as it appears, it's highly unlikely the frame was affected at all from a hit like this. It has some contours stamped into it to help it collapse with a severe hit. You'd see any bending at those points, but I doubt you will.

When Da Red Dog crashed, it took most of the hit in the grille, but the bumper was ALSO hit; so you could see a very slight bending near one of those contours.

[robertt]

I
I've been offered those front body pieces a few times already via PM, one set even being bronzit! My desire to save this car is enormous, considering the condition of the rest of it.... And yeah yeah quite a bit of sentimental value too.

Bottom line is that I need to have the frame inspected, and determine whether or not it is tweaked..

From the one picture I would say not likely there is frame damage. Please post a photo of the door to fender gap and an underhood shot with the impact point and finally the fender bolts on the top of the fender. In fact i'll even write a full damage report with a few simple photos.
Bob
pridebody.com

[Nicke28]

Garageboy had most of it right on having a shop repair the car. I didn't like the comment " And this assumes the shop doesn't try to pass along the cost of a Cellette rental directly to you" which sounds like he works for State Farm.

Hahahaha. Me working for an insurance company? In this lifetime? Bwahahahaha. That made milk come out my nose... thanks for the amusing thought...

The fact is now that the E28 is so far past its prime, the only people who have the jigs for the Cellette are shops that worked on E28s since 1984, or else a shop has to rent the jigs from Cellette directly, right? If it's 2012 and I have to rent the jigs, someone is gonna pay for it, right? That's going to be the customer, whether the car had collision insurance or not. Did I get it wrong? I'm happy to be corrected if I got it twisted.

Anyway I have experience fixing LOTS of E28's with this damage. I have been working at a BMW bodyshop since 1984. There is NO frame damage, as you missed the bumpers.

I agree with this assessment. But I think there could be damage to the wheel housings -- one or both sides, especially if there's the space between the door and fender is less than spec.

I guess my concern about the "hey let's have a party and fix this guy's car" approach is that it didn't seem to be the right course for this car since the condition did look quite good, all things considered. If the owner is believing that the car will return to looking like it did prior to the accident, I felt that he would be disappointed with this approach. If he's hoping the car will be "close enough", then this approach could work out just fine. Personally, I am of the mindset that if it will be obvious that the car was repaired ("obvious" meaning that tolerances will be off on fender gaps and things like that), I would rather part it out, take the money from that, and find another one that hasn't been damaged.

As well, if the car was rust-free before, using junkyard parts that have been exposed to the elements is a risk. As you know, cleaning up those parts so that all traces of rust are removed is not easy. It's all time. If he has the time to do that, great. If he pays a shop, forget it. No shop could afford to do that without charging an arm and a leg, which is why they prefer to use new parts when available.

No matter what Spark JR does, he's lucky to have a knowledgeable father, as well as the helpful advice of our little group!

Regards,
.steve.
NYC
1988 528e, 5-speed, 93k miles, The Time Capsule
2001 530i, 5-speed, 113k miles, Almost a Time Capsule

NorCal should have plenty of BMW/Euro car specialty shops that have a e28 jig.

[SparkJR]

I
I've been offered those front body pieces a few times already via PM, one set even being bronzit! My desire to save this car is enormous, considering the condition of the rest of it.... And yeah yeah quite a bit of sentimental value too.

Bottom line is that I need to have the frame inspected, and determine whether or not it is tweaked..

From the one picture I would say not likely there is frame damage. Please post a photo of the door to fender gap and an underhood shot with the impact point and finally the fender bolts on the top of the fender. In fact i'll even write a full damage report with a few simple photos.
Bob
pridebody.com

Once we get a little dryness out here in the valley in a day or two, more pics will definitely be posted

[robertt]

Regarding Jigs,
I own four of the aforementioned JIG benches and use them daily and really doubt this car needs a bench. If it is that bad the cost of repair is certainly beyond the value of the car, by a lot.
Took this photo just yesterday:

Bob T

[JBort]

Save it!

Before:

After:

I had the local body shop weld in a replacement radiator support and fit a replacement hood
(both from '02 Salvage in Hawyard).
I did the rest including paint and A/C!
You have friends and resources!!

[E2K]

It seems to be in great shape so I'd definitely fix it.

This was my first car, I bought it for $300.


I got parts that were already red, utilized pull-a-part and people that I knew and I ended up with this.


Its not perfect but it gets the job done, not to mention that I now have a very strong bond to that Jeep. I don't think I'll ever get rid of it.

You just gotta ask how much it means to you, and even though it sucks it can really be a great learning experience (I did about 90% of the work myself) and knowledge is priceless right?

[SparkJR]

So, with further inspection, the damage doesn't seem to be as severe as initially anticipated.. still bad, but it seems to be fixable. As soon as Dave returns from SD (given the correct weather), the frontal tear down will begin. Took some pics (large) with more detail, opinions are still greatly appreciated

Where the door bent the fender to open


Yet the spacing on the bottom of the fender remains the same


Movement in the slotted fender holes

[E2K]

I still say fix it. It appears that the chassis is slightly bent and it'll probably never bee 100%, but you can probably get it pretty close.

[Bimmerguy2002]

that is a shame, i remember when i crashed my car, i called 911 dispatch and proclaimed "my dixie wrecked!" and they told me to watch my language

[Kyle in NO]

I would be glad to help out with the repair if the NorCal group is going to help. Lmk guys. Johnny

THIS MAN is the key to your success.

[Dinan e28]

S Jr how are the frame rails?

[Kyle in NO]

Sorry dude, but these two areas mean PARTS (pahr-tz) CAR (ka'hr).

[L_N_Love]

I saw those two spots and thought they may be bad news.

[Spark]

I too saw that at the corner of the windshield but it actually seemed to be a funky shadow in the pic as it was a cloudy day. I will take a closer look and another pic to confirm.



. As for the frame rails, from what I can tell they appear to be fine. The inner fender although is tweaked. It’s possible we can massage that back to where it belongs or even find a cadaver to cut and weld in.

[cgraff]

Sorry dude, but these two areas mean PARTS (pahr-tz) CAR (ka'hr).

First impressions from the pictures:

1. You definitely need a front valance, grill support, radiator core support.

2. The damage on the driver side fender is serious. The inner fender from the picture above is deformed where the cruise actuator is attached. Also, The fender and potentially inner fender as a whole to be pushed back into the windshield support (thus the lower A-pillar wrinkle - and no that's not a shadow, that's A-pillar damage).

3. It does not look like you have frame rail damage (although I reserve final judgment since there's no conclusive pictures or measurements).

This is fixable. However, you'll need a new inner fender from where the wheel well is at least, all the way forward. Obviously you'll need a new outer fender. And all of #1 above and new right fender.

When you reinstall and reweld everything, you might be able to have enough play in the slots to realign the fender on the somewhat pushed back inner fender portion so that it doesn't hit the door, and it clears the A-pillar/lower windshield cowl area. However, this is not guaranteed.

You'll have to remove the damaged pieces currently on the car. Then, ideally test fit a new driver side fender that is undamaged and confirm the deformation of the inner fender. Take pictures and repost.

You may be lucky in that that portion of the A-pillar, although important, isn't that critical part of the structure that will guarantee a 'bent frame', considering the way in which it was damaged.

In conclusion: the car won't ever be the same. If you're tight on money, get used parts, do the work yourself, and put it in lessons learned. Drive the car until it dies and consider yourself lucky. It won't ever be a show car, and you won't get your money out of it. (or time/effort).

Given that the underlying frame rails (and hopefully front strut tower) aren't deformed, you're lucky. That A-pillar tweak will forever remind you to not follow so closely and pay attention. Trust me when I say, we all have scars. A scar on a car is better than a scar on a body.

-Chris

[dcollin]

Got the car towed to my driveway today. Our plan is to decide if it's fixable or part it out. I'm going to cut out and remove anything that in the way. Spark fired it for a second, which is good news.

Our plan is to take off everything in the front. Then take it for test drive slow,if it passes. Test drive on the highway. Then determine if it is fixable. No one wants Alec to have an unsafe vehicle.

I'll probably start a new thread in tech talk, complete with progress and photos.

Right now it needs:Radiator,clutch fan, out side fenders, right side inside I think can be pounded out, left side appears tto be ok, grills left, right and center, head light buckets and lights, front body not sure what it called, bumper strip and hood.

Things that survived:Bumper, rubber strips left and right, air dam, fogs, lower light.

If anybody has any suggestion let me know. I believe it has abetter than average chance of surving.

[oldskool]

Survive the lawsuit from the driver he slammed into?

[1st 5er]

... front body not sure what it called...

If anybody has any suggestion let me know. I believe it has abetter than average chance of surving.

Core support, is that what you're looking for?
It's the cross piece up front that the radiator, lights, etc. attach to.

I think all the repair suggestions are in the thread already.

My fingers are crossed that the thing tracks correctly and is repairable.
Don't forget to come back here and give us the link to the re-build thread.

[Spark]

Survive the lawsuit from the driver he slammed into?

No lawsuit... insured to the hilt from a PL, PD, & Medical perspective, not so lucky for his car though. Full coverage for a 17 year old? unbelievable...$$$$.$$ I guess we know why now.

[slimdevil27]

I'd replace the water pump in case of damage, shaft setback in the pressed bearing may cause the impeller to make contact inside, or damage to the bearing itself. You may find it leaks after reassembling everything.







Carry on.

[Mike W.]

Sorry dude, but these two areas mean PARTS (pahr-tz) CAR (ka'hr).

That does concern me some. I'm not sure how structural integrity would be compromised, so it may not be a deal killer.

That's under the hood, a nuisance to flatten enough to get the nose straight, but no more than that. It's under the hood of a 25 year old car. Body shops do worse, as long as it's straight and shinny on the outside, many of them will butcher anything concealed.

I'm up for lending a hand, and I've got experience with this sort of thing. Get in touch with me guys, with parts it looks like an afternoon.

[Mike W.]

Hammerfest, we need a Hammerfest, not a Wrenchfest. 2X4s, chains and 8 pound sledges. Take no prisoners.