Sbeckman7's Project: BR1

[sbeckman7]

Hahah I think my mom had a scirocco..

Alright. Time for more questions. The front coilover kit is on the way (rears are retaining stock geometry and the koni's that came with the car) so I'm working out how I will attach my front struts to the frame. Pictures are on page 10 to reiterate.

In total the struts will mount to the frame in 3 points. Now the only issue is designing a way to attach them. I’ve been thinking of using custom camber plates, and I think the best route is to buy them online and fabricate a steel disc to attach them to the frame with the help of Daniel.

These are the mounts I’m planning on using: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... &viewitem=



I like how simple and strong they are so they’ll suit my needs without over-complicating things. Since the body is aluminum, the fabrication of a metal disc is necessary to weld it to the frame. Thoughts?

[sbeckman7]

Well, I dont have much to post but here goes. My front coilover kit should finally be here by the end of the day so I removed the strut inserts during class.




Something which - for me at least - is more exciting: I "went public" today with the project, following a friend's suggestion to open up a webpage for donations. If you want to take a look, here is the link: http://www.gofundme.com/High-School-Race-Car

[sbeckman7]

Had some time to prep the car for the coilovers. Jeremey at Ireland Engineering has been a huge help and is guiding me through the entire conversion process over the phone. Today I removed the left front wheel and strut (but left the arms on) and cut the OEM lower spring perch off. I just got it off as the bell rang so I have to finish smoothing it out tomorrow, and hopefully do the other side as well. The donation site has received its first donation, so that's a plus. And other than that, I'm gonna order those camber plates tonight. Good stuff.

Not much to remove thankfully... Thought it would be much harder than it was after hearing my friend's horror stories of spending hours trying to loosen bolts. Two very large pipes for leverage did the trick!






Unfortunately I cut a little bit out of the strut housing, but I started aiming higher after that.


The end result of today's work:



On a different note, the brake on the other side is seized. What methods are there of freeing up a frozen brake? And when the car's done, will the OEM brakes be more than adequate due to the reduced weight or should I still use some sort of upgraded brake system for track use?

[e281985]

I just used compressed air to release some pistons in Austin Healey calipers. You will want to make sure to put a towell or something in between the two pistons becuase one will shoot out with considerable force. You then put it back in and hold it in place with a c-clamp so the other one can be blown loose.
I think the correct way though is to use a grease gun. Put a grease fitting on there and pump it with grease, c-clamp both pistons, slowly loosening them to allow them to come out gradually.

[mooseheadm5]

There is only one piston, so you won't have to mess with holding one while pressing the other out.

[sbeckman7]

Sorry guys, I should have been more clear. The frozen caliper is still on the car, on the left side. It's not 100% solid but pretty bad; 3 people had a very hard time rolling the car even after the engine etc. was removed.

[mooseheadm5]

Big ass channel lock pliers.

[sbeckman7]

Big ass channel lock pliers.

Thank you sire, your diction is impeccable!

[tsmall07]

Big ass channel lock pliers.

and/or BFH

[sbeckman7]

So I wasn't quite able to get the second strut off today. For starters, the left front wheel was a challenge in its own to remove. The silver hex-shaped BBS cap had come off when the PO had it, but the black threaded plastic sleeve that the holds the center mesh pattern in place was still there, so the cap had just come unglued. However, that means there was nowhere to get a grip in order to unscrew it, so I had to drill 2 holes in the plastic, make a sort of "key" by welding two screws to a metal bar, and then twist the plastic piece using the "keyholes". I figured it was worth it considering the holes wont show once the BBS cap is replaced. After that ordeal, I had a good amount of cleaning to do with the compressed air because the hubs were at one point a mass breeding ground for every spider in existence. Crud cleared away, I proceeded to remove the frozen caliper and brake rotor as one piece, after which I set them in a clamp (buffered on each side by wood blocks) and pried them apart with a screw driver and the massive pipe that also helped us loosen the lug-nuts and caliper bolts. Lastly, I loosened the control arm bolt just as the bell rang, so tomorrow I just have to undo the steering linkage and start cutting the spring perch.

In terms of funding, the sight has had its first donation and schoolmates continue to help out with whatever they have. Really nice to have the support of friends and family, both mentally and monetarily! My biggest donation was recieved yesterday: a buddy of mine, Lucas Duncan, is supplying me with a fabricated roll bar to my specifications!

Pics as always.



Spence


Ireland Engineering Coilover Kit, the best one for the money out there.



Me and a my friend Zack wreaking havoc on the brake caliper bolts



With one pipe down the strut tube and the other over the socket wrench, the bolts were still surprisingly hard to get off!



Hard to believe this is progress...






Not sure whether I'm going to include these on the finished product... Might have to replace the seized one Anyway.

[sbeckman7]

Finished grinding both lower spring perches! Took about 40 minutes to finish the right side and do the entire left side. After that I spent the remaining fiddling around with the seat height and position, although it's somewhat pointless until I get the floor in.

[sbeckman7]

No school today so I've haven't had any shop time, but the camber plates came today. The bearings feel iffy - they're really tight - but they dont need to move more than a few degrees so hopefully they'll be ok with some white lithium grease and a watchful eye. Other than that I started using some tools that my Uncle was nice enough to buy for me to take apart and clean the ITB's to the best of my capabilities. They're far from looking new but at least it gave me something to do Still have no idea how those faded yellow caps come off or how they adjust the air for idle (I think thats what they do...)

[mooseheadm5]

Those bearings are supposed to be tight and are likely lined with teflon, so not much worry other than getting dirt in them.

[sbeckman7]

Thanks for the heads up Paul. The next two things on the to-do list are buy/install the koni 1811-1437 racing inserts and buy/install the upper spring perches from IE. Unfortunately both of those tasks start with the word buy.. So far the website has raised $180 which is a fantastic start, just need that number to keep growing! Another lovely little coincidence is that the subframe mounts are perfectly in line with the frame. One less thing to fabricate.

[rmiddendorf]

I'm not the only one with a x-mas tree stand in my workspace!



Enjoying the build. Keep up the good work!

[sbeckman7]

an xmas tree stand and probably anything else you can name... I'm gonna have fun cleaning that out to make room for the car

[sbeckman7]

Well I just started tack welding the mounts for the coilover lower perches yesterday. I'll probably finish them on Monday and then get $$ to buy the koni's.

In other news, the future of the project has taken a slightly different approach regarding engines. I have come to realize that although the m30 fits the traditional concept and design of this vehicle, spending thousands on high performance parts that will yield a not-incredibly-impressive number seems unreasonable given my very limited budget. For this reason I have started thinking about my original powerplant ideas for the project; I thought about using an e34 540i as a parts car last May but couldn't due to the price, and finding a 6 speed would have been a nightmare.

After researching the various BMW V8 platforms and discussing the idea with a few mechanics, I have concluded that the best engine to use is the M62TUB44, the 4.4 liter v8 with VANOS from the 1999+ 540i. From what I hear this is the pinnacle of the M60's evolution, with the most power and torque available, the most efficient performer, and most importantly, the most reliable. Although late model e39's go for over 7k on craigslist, I have found many on online salvage yards for under 3k. Since the cost of building an m30 engine to produce the power I am looking for would cost an estimated 5k, I see buying a wrecked car, taking what I need, and parting the rest out as a financially sound option. If I choose wisely, I could even come out on top like with the e28 donor car. Plus, I mean it's a BMW V8.

I recently had an experience last Wednesday which further reinforced my change of plans. I had the opportunity to drive a 2010 Mercedes E63 AMG, which put the power-to-weight
ratio I am looking for into a whole new perspective. With about 260 hp per ton, it pushed me into my seat harder than anything else I have ever driven or been in. With over 380/ton, I should end up with the ride of my life

Although I have decided to revert back to a v8 for the performance engine, it is likely that I will get the car up and running with the m30 if I don't have the necessary cash to buy another parts car at that time. I don't want to see the thing sitting for months in my garage waiting for an engine. That said, if I am able to buy a parts car when the rest of the project is complete, the M62 could be the first engine to find a home in the BR1.

[Aamir_bt]

wow, just read this thread and you are my hero. it's rare to see people do a build like this, and is something i wanna do one day also.

as far as the brake calipers, go on rockauto.com, they have good prices on new parts and sometimes you can get wholesaler closeout discounts, which are usually like a 50% discount on parts. but usually calipers go for about $80 on there. so instead of dealing with an old seized one, i think a new one would be better.

i will definitely be keeping tabs on this project.

[sbeckman7]

wow, just read this thread and you are my hero. it's rare to see people do a build like this, and is something i wanna do one day also.

as far as the brake calipers, go on rockauto.com, they have good prices on new parts and sometimes you can get wholesaler closeout discounts, which are usually like a 50% discount on parts. but usually calipers go for about $80 on there. so instead of dealing with an old seized one, i think a new one would be better.

i will definitely be keeping tabs on this project.

Thanks for the heads up. I have since decided to go with the upgraded oem brakes from a 540i/740/50 because they're cheap and are more than adequate for my purposes. I'll check the site out though.

[Tammer in Philly]

After researching the various BMW V8 platforms and discussing the idea with a few mechanics, I have concluded that the best engine to use is the M62TUB44, the 4.4 liter v8 with VANOS from the 1999+ 540i. From what I hear this is the pinnacle of the M60's evolution, with the most power and torque available, the most efficient performer, and most importantly, the most reliable. Although late model e39's go for over 7k on craigslist, I have found many on online salvage yards for under 3k. Since the cost of building an m30 engine to produce the power I am looking for would cost an estimated 5k, I see buying a wrecked car, taking what I need, and parting the rest out as a financially sound option. If I choose wisely, I could even come out on top like with the e28 donor car. Plus, I mean it's a BMW V8.

This is the sort of thing you want to know up front. V8 exhaust clearance with a stock E28 subframe and steering linkage is an absolute nightmare. Ask Aaron (bmw4aaron); he put an M60 into an E28. The body of the car is not the limitation.

If you want more power, the smart money for inexpensive/reliable/easy packaging (in the frame you've designed) is an S52 with bolt-on mods. It's easy to build one up to ~240 WHP, which gets you within a whisker of the M62 without the exhaust development and tons of fabricating. Not to mention the wiring for the E39-based M62 is a whole other nightmare. But seriously, what's this thing going to weigh when you're done? An M30, even bone stock, will seem like a rocket if you're only pushing 1200 lbs. I worry somewhat about your weight distribution; it might have been smarter (though more difficult) to mate the motor to a Porsche 944 transaxle or similar.

The V8 is nice from a weight distribution perspective--it's lighter per HP and shorter overall, so it can sit a few inches further back in the chassis. But it's easy for you to build custom mounts for an S52 (or even S54, if you suddenly hit the lottery) to move it back some, and you can adjust your seating and pedal position rather easily I'd bet, if not the firewall.

-tammer

[sbeckman7]

After researching the various BMW V8 platforms and discussing the idea with a few mechanics, I have concluded that the best engine to use is the M62TUB44, the 4.4 liter v8 with VANOS from the 1999+ 540i. From what I hear this is the pinnacle of the M60's evolution, with the most power and torque available, the most efficient performer, and most importantly, the most reliable. Although late model e39's go for over 7k on craigslist, I have found many on online salvage yards for under 3k. Since the cost of building an m30 engine to produce the power I am looking for would cost an estimated 5k, I see buying a wrecked car, taking what I need, and parting the rest out as a financially sound option. If I choose wisely, I could even come out on top like with the e28 donor car. Plus, I mean it's a BMW V8.

This is the sort of thing you want to know up front. V8 exhaust clearance with a stock E28 subframe and steering linkage is an absolute nightmare. Ask Aaron (bmw4aaron); he put an M60 into an E28. The body of the car is not the limitation.

If you want more power, the smart money for inexpensive/reliable/easy packaging (in the frame you've designed) is an S52 with bolt-on mods. It's easy to build one up to ~240 WHP, which gets you within a whisker of the M62 without the exhaust development and tons of fabricating. Not to mention the wiring for the E39-based M62 is a whole other nightmare. But seriously, what's this thing going to weigh when you're done? An M30, even bone stock, will seem like a rocket if you're only pushing 1200 lbs. I worry somewhat about your weight distribution; it might have been smarter (though more difficult) to mate the motor to a Porsche 944 transaxle or similar.

The V8 is nice from a weight distribution perspective--it's lighter per HP and shorter overall, so it can sit a few inches further back in the chassis. But it's easy for you to build custom mounts for an S52 (or even S54, if you suddenly hit the lottery) to move it back some, and you can adjust your seating and pedal position rather easily I'd bet, if not the firewall.

-tammer

These are good points, but it seems that you may have forgotten where I can mount the engine. Remember that I am moving whatever engine I choose significantly further back, so that the front pulleys will be just behind the steering linkage. because of this, and the large amounts of space in the tapered frame design, I shouldnt have to worry about packaging or weight distribution. Now in terms of the V8, I am now coming across information that contradicts what my mechanic told me, saying the non vanos motor is simpler and therefore more reliable, not to mention the saved headache of retaining throttle by cable (which I also like from an enthusiast's perspective). This is a tougher decision than I thought, but I have plenty of time to make my choice.

[mooseheadm5]

You will want to use the M62B44 non-Vanos (I have heard that the 98 is the best year due to piston oil squirters.) There are a few issues with the Vanos cars from what I have heard.
The headers will be a pain, but since you can put them anywhere, not a huge deal. In addition, you don't have to worry about brake master/booster placement the way the E28 builders do (in fact, you should do tandem manual master cylinders.) Your issue will be that the trans for the M62 is longer and may require that linkage previously discussed. Also the bell housing is huge so the cabin will be a little more cramped.
I say go for it if you want to. PM incoming as well.

[sbeckman7]

Your issue will be that the trans for the M62 is longer and may require that linkage previously discussed. Also the bell housing is huge so the cabin will be a little more cramped.

Wouldn't that issue be offset by the fact that the m62 is shorter than the m30?

[mooseheadm5]

That would only be the case if you mount the M62 further forward, which is not the best idea for weight distribution. You would want to keep the rear of the engine in the same spot whether you run an M62, M30, or M50 based engine.

[sbeckman7]

I see. Alright, I suppose I'll cross that bridge when I get there. Anyone know what the length of an M62 trans (Getrag 420G) is?

[tsmall07]

I think you are making this more complicated than it needs to be. If you put an engine with huge power, what makes you think you'll be able to get it to the ground in such a light car? I think what you are wanting to build now will be difficult to control with that much power and I think it would be dangerous for anyone other than the most experienced drivers. A stock m30 will be more power than you know what to do with. Learn how the car behaves with the stock engine, then, in a few years, you can add a turbo and have more power than you would with a BMW v8. I don't really understand how you think it'll cost 5k for modest power w/ an m30. Brad has $2k-$3k in his turbo setup and he's around 350 hp at the wheels.

[sbeckman7]

I think you are making this more complicated than it needs to be. If you put an engine with huge power, what makes you think you'll be able to get it to the ground in such a light car? I think what you are wanting to build now will be difficult to control with that much power and I think it would be dangerous for anyone other than the most experienced drivers. A stock m30 will be more power than you know what to do with. Learn how the car behaves with the stock engine, then, in a few years, you can add a turbo and have more power than you would with a BMW v8. I don't really understand how you think it'll cost 5k for modest power w/ an m30. Brad has $2k-$3k in his turbo setup and he's around 350 hp at the wheels.

The main idea of this project is not to have a fast car, it's to have a car that can boast hp/ton figures similar to those of the fastest cars in the world. I want it to be faster than any Ferrari, Porsche, or Lambo sitting in showrooms right now, and I want to be able to say that I made it. If a Caterham with 500hp can get all that power to the ground with even less weight and much skinnier tires, I should have no trouble.

I can definitely see what you're talking about regarding power. It will be very fast even with the m30, but not more than what I know what to do with. It's only a 180hp B34, not a B35, and the E63 I drove last week already had more hp/ton than my project would with the M30 in it. It wouldn't feel right driving that purpose built car knowing I had previously driven a large 4 door with more power/ton. In regards to the engine itself, I am purposely not going FI on the M30 (or any other engine) because I think it's one of those classic straight sixes that should be left N/A, although I can't even count how many people disagree with me on that point. A turbocharged engine does not fit the character of this car: light, responsive, and pure.

With that said, here is the list of current candidates:

Cost, reliability, and weight are the most important aspects of the engine, in that order. I am fully open to the idea of buying a parts car as supposed to just the parts. Whatever I use will need to come with a manual transmission but that shouldn't be too hard to source. That said, the transmission is included in my overall budget. I'd like to spend under 3-4k.

The M60B40 was the first idea because its OBD1, a responsive engine, and makes the same hp as the M62B44. Plus it sounds fantastic. Sound is also very important to me.. Only thing I'm worried about with this engine is reliability, as I've heard they can be quite costly to maintain.

The M62B44 (non VANOS) seems to be the next step up in terms of power (with more torque), but it seems like an overall lazier engine and could be plagued by reliability issues. From what I've read the timing system was downgraded from the M60's in favor of cheaper cost.

I wasn't fully open to the idea of an american pushrod engine until I saw just how compact and lightweight the LS1 blocks are (~50 lbs lighter dry weight). They appear to be the most reliable of the three and the cheapest to maintain. Downside: maybe I'm not looking in the right places, but were do you find these??

Add to that the mountain of torque the LS1's produce and I'm really unsure which one I will choose at this point. Thoughts and opinions appreciated.

[tsmall07]

I guess I didn't realize you only care about straight line speed. Most of my comments above apply to going around a track.

[sbeckman7]

What made you say that? A dragster is the last thing I'm going for.

[C.R. Krieger]

What made you say that? A dragster is the last thing I'm going for.

He said it because you don't use straight line speed going around corners. So, not a dragster; a Bonneville special.