Just what is the deal with Minivans?

[Justin_FL]

Our 2002 VW Eurovan is quite practical in a German utilitarian way. It's just the GLS model, so no pop-top and funky rear-facing captain chairs like the Weekender model. Large rear hatch door kills it's usability for most women, though, since it opens high and has to be pulled down, with the possibility of the rear glass hitting a garage door (like what the PO did at some point).

Has great outward visibility, the seating height is much like any current full-size pickup so that also means climbing in (has convenient handles on the A-pillar. Interior roof height is good, too, so the rear seats are more upright and much like sitting on a regular chair-- this works better for me than your typical minivan setups for long-trip comfort. But it is more truck-like than minivan, so not as pleasant as any of the ones on the market to drive. And even with the 2.8L VR6 (5-cyl vans are quite a bit slower), you long for more torque in a vehicle of this weight. Cruises very nicely on the highway and feels solid, tracking like any German sedan. Cross-winds won't budge it. Did I mention sheets of plywood lay down in the back? Or bicycles can stand upright inside? Can't do that with a regular minivan.

However, I won't say it is the most robust/reliable vehicle. Subject to VW electronics issues typical for the era and poor quality interior plastic trim with that nasty "soft touch" coating that turns to goop.

Would be a nice vehicle with one of the high-output European diesel drivetrains...

I think vans are under-appreciated. For what we use it for, insuring a pickup truck would be a considerably more expensive vehicle to keep for infrequent usage for trips to the home supply stores.

[Matt]

Eurovan hasn't been sold in the US in years.. and afaik it predates a fair bit of modern safety equipment.

The modern VW van is the "Routan", which is a Chrysler,built in a in Chrysler factory, and it won't even talk to the VW service computer --- it's got chrysler electronics through and ythrough.

It's a Chrysler T&C with a VW badge on the front and some different trim peices.

It's disgusting, because last time i looked, VW germany sold 3 different _sizes_ of vans, all VW designed, in the german market. (Touran, Sharan, and something else.. )

[Matt]

Eaaaassssssy, killer.

Something tells me fatherhood has been a bit stressful for you. No need to take it out on people here.

You know how it is:

[RonW]

Eurovan hasn't been sold in the US in years.. and afaik it predates a fair bit of modern safety equipment.

The modern VW van is the "Routan", which is a Chrysler,built in a in Chrysler factory, and it won't even talk to the VW service computer --- it's got chrysler electronics through and ythrough.

It's a Chrysler T&C with a VW badge on the front and some different trim peices.

It's disgusting, because last time i looked, VW germany sold 3 different _sizes_ of vans, all VW designed, in the german market. (Touran, Sharan, and something else.. )

If those products count as light trucks, this could be a side effect of the Chicken tax.

[Lee in MD]

I was going to qualify my comments with an exception for those who have multiple kids in those bulky car seats but since, according to Matt, I'm just a shit licking van hating dumbfuck, I guess I should instead genuflect before his almighty intellect.

Matt - I sure hope you grow up and cut out the ADHD outbursts before your kids are old enough to realize what an infantile asshole their dad is. Have you ever gone back and reread some of the ridiculous Utopian nonsense and plain old ranting you've written on this forum? Some of it's got to register as pretty embarrassing unless you're thoroughly and pathologically deluded. Luckily for you, it sounds like your kids are pretty young so you've got a few years to work on settling down those pesky misfiring synapses before they wise up and tune you out like the rest of us

[cddallara]

I guess I'm living the bloated American lifestyle, with a lifted SUV, and a minivan

My wife loves the Sienna, for the prior mentioned reasons. It's only got 70 k on it, but it's 10 years old.

We've had the 'Runner for ~8 years, and nary a problem. Except for routine oil changes. I've done the (front) brakes once, a major service at 110 k, original clutch, and it's still going strong at 170k.

My e28's are toys, not to be taken seriously. The 533 has 250k, and a AAA card in the glovebox

The m535i sees maybe 50 miles a month if that. It's great for the occasional sunday drive, but I wouldn't DD it, without a healthy dose of $$ to "baseline" it first.

Neither of the bimmers will likely see kids in it, unless my oldest drives the 533 to school...

[Matt]

I was going to qualify my comments with an exception for those who have multiple kids in those bulky car seats but since, according to Matt, I'm just a shit licking van hating dumbfuck, I guess I should instead genuflect before his almighty intellect.

Matt - I sure hope you grow up and cut out the ADHD outbursts before your kids are old enough to realize what an infantile asshole their dad is. Have you ever gone back and reread some of the ridiculous Utopian nonsense and plain old ranting you've written on this forum? Some of it's got to register as pretty embarrassing unless you're thoroughly and pathologically deluded. Luckily for you, it sounds like your kids are pretty young so you've got a few years to work on settling down those pesky misfiring synapses before they wise up and tune you out like the rest of us

Was the "tuning out" before or after you hit "reply"?

I stand by anything I've ever written here. Find something you think I ought to be embarassed about.

There are plenty of people who don't LIKE what I write, but far fewer who can coherently disagree with it. I'm fine with that.

[rlomba8204]

You're obviously a very intelligent guy, and you are entitled to your opinions. But how about just toning down the language and the overall volume a bit? That is largely to what I think people are reacting. Best regards.

[Dexter]

I was just saying that I thought it was strange that there are NO cars in the school lot. I don't like minivans just like I don't like Lexuses- I don't know which I dislike worse and it doesn't make any logical sense as they are both good choices for the right people.

I am also a bloated American. When I was single I had both a Z3 and a loaded Suburban in the driveway of a decent sized house at the beach with no need for any of it. (well, most of th rooms in the house were used for the recording studio, so there was some need). My point is just that Americans want elbow room and there is no law against it. I just don't like how minivans look, that's all. I safely strap my child seats in the rear of the M5 but if and when we have a third child I will only me able to take two of them at a time. Otherwise i will have to drive my wife's SUV or my Silverado, cause I am a spoiled American that CAN.

[Matt]

Gentleman,

It has recently come to my attention that you were accosted by an uncouth, sailor-mouth, inconsiderate never-do-well. Furthermore, that scoundrel claimed to be none other than myself.

You have been played. That was the Evil Kirk.

As far as my feelings on the original matter, and the further conversational direction of this discussion, I would posit that for situations where there are multiple children who must be conveyed, and said offspring are of sufficient youth such that they fall under the purvey of state and federal mandatory carseat legislation, there is a true famine of commoner-built vehicles sufficient for the task.

The minivan, as a class, is one type of vehicle which fits the bill. There are precious few alternatives; the van may infact be unique in its suitability. Key aspects to consider are its atypically low ingress height, the better to facilitate the unassisted entry of children of reduced stature. Furthremore, the automatically retracting doors, activated from afar by the magiks of "radio frequency" technology, at the full command an authority of the parents. At last, the minivan has on offer many occupant positions, all of which are well suited for the secure fastening of child equipment. And though these seats be distributed across twain auxilliary rows, excepting of course the frontmost row housing the pilot and navigation officer, ingress and egress to and from the third row is a trivial matter for a youngling, unassasited by adults.

So it is contrary to the original and subsequent comments that I find myself motivated to rise in non-supplication. Perchance those who are too hasty to be critical of the minivan are unfamiliar with its specialized benefits; its hidden talents on offer only to those few who can yoke its elusive majesty.

To those so afflicted, I wish you a virile and industrious future, whereby you may see your seed spread to many descendants. Should this joyous day come to you on this world, perhaps your heart will soften; your injurious words shall be seen, at last, to have been premature, and you shall know what has been learned by your progenitous betters: the van is truly a mans chariot, and it remains the measure of the glory of his house.

God speed.

[Karl Grau]

[Tammer in Philly]

Minivans and SUVs as kid haulers are the triumph of marketing over reason. Ask those drivers why they chose a minivan and they'll likely talk about room etc., but I think the real reason is that they've been brainwashed into thinking hauling around their offspring in anything less than a tank is tantamount to child abuse.

It's amazing how many products are sold to the public these days using fear and the widespread inability of most humans to truly grasp the concepts of risk and probability.

True for SUVs, which don't offer as many family-friendly amenities as minivans, have less space (Suburban excepted), use more fuel, are higher, handle worse, etc. Minivans are very, very good for the job they are designed to do--move lots of people and stuff safely and conveniently. They are basically really tall, fairly long wagons, rather than being huge enclosed pickup trucks. This means lower floor, better packaging, and tons of usable room. They're not "cool," but they are certainly useful and a decent minivan can get 25-27 mpg while moving 7 people and a lot of luggage.

-tammer

[slammin_e28]

I'm letting my swearing never to have a minivan dictate how many kids I have. Max of 2, and then I'll just get a BMW wagon, or maybe a x3 3.0!

Anymore, and they'll each have to take turns going to school.

[Tammer in Philly]

I'm letting my swearing never to have a minivan dictate how many kids I have. Max of 2,

I think this is generally a good policy regardless of your views on vehicle types.

-tammer

[mooseheadm5]

Funny, my parents had 4 kids with an E12 and, at various times, a Hyundai Excel, a Peugeot wagon, and an S class Benz.

This discussion makes me respect them much more.

Besides, if you are going to piss and moan about it, then don't have the kids. If you want the kids, then it is your deal.

Carry on. I keep the back seat of the wagon down because I'm not having kids. I use it as a truck. Once I add the trailer hitch, it'll haul more and tow more than the average person that has to have an SUV to go shopping.

[Jeremy]

I removed the rear seat, rear seat attachment points, and all seat belt parts related to the rear seat on my Wrangler. Number of time this has bitten me in the ass: 0 over the course of 6 years and 50k miles.

I'd love to put a non-family roll cage on it, but it's too much time/money/effort for the thing. They look much better though.

Jeremy

[Justin_FL]

Eurovan hasn't been sold in the US in years.. and afaik it predates a fair bit of modern safety equipment.

T4 generation vans were built from the early 90s, so obviously they don't have everything you'd find in a newer vehicle. The 24V VR6s (final 3 years, '01 to '03) have Bosch 5.3 ABS, ASR and ESP system. The throttle by wire also will cut power to the engine if you drive with the brake depressed, so perhaps a Eurovan is safer than a Toyota minivan

Now if you are talking about airbags, nope, the Eurovan sure doesn't have the pyrotechnics onboard to create a bouncy house cocoon upon impact . The rear bench does have 3 child seat tether points as required by law on the ceiling.

We bought ours to replace a Chevy Astro Cargo Van, so its purpose is really more utility van than kid hauler (no children planned anytime soon!). The Astro van was just too crude, it really needed interior panels and carpet to cut down the noise to be civilized on the highway, but that wouldn't fix the poor driving manners. The EV is more like an E34 on the highway than truck, so the difference is significant, but even in bloated US-trim the van has a payload capacity comparable with most 1/4 ton pickups from a few years ago.

[Lee in MD]

Minivans and SUVs as kid haulers are the triumph of marketing over reason. Ask those drivers why they chose a minivan and they'll likely talk about room etc., but I think the real reason is that they've been brainwashed into thinking hauling around their offspring in anything less than a tank is tantamount to child abuse.

It's amazing how many products are sold to the public these days using fear and the widespread inability of most humans to truly grasp the concepts of risk and probability.

True for SUVs, which don't offer as many family-friendly amenities as minivans, have less space (Suburban excepted), use more fuel, are higher, handle worse, etc. Minivans are very, very good for the job they are designed to do--move lots of people and stuff safely and conveniently. They are basically really tall, fairly long wagons, rather than being huge enclosed pickup trucks. This means lower floor, better packaging, and tons of usable room. They're not "cool," but they are certainly useful and a decent minivan can get 25-27 mpg while moving 7 people and a lot of luggage.

-tammer

Agree wholeheartedly on your points about SUVs vs. Minivans. In fact it still makes me angry that marketers were able to able to crowd out so much of the Minivan segment with higher profit, less utilitarian SUVs by pushing the "Minivans are uncool" angle. Personally, I think more people have Minivans and SUVs than really need them but at least with a Minivan you're driving an 'honest' vehicle that's not 70% geared toward some offroad fantasy world.

Of course some of the backlash against Minivans was probably just blowback from earlier Minivan marketing with its wretched soccer mom who would do anything to protect her precious babies schtick. I personally know two women who basically are that overprotective soccer mom, but nevertheless were so offended that they eventually traded in the minivan for a gas hog SUV that will never see mud.

[Lee in MD]

Was the "tuning out" before or after you hit "reply"?

I stand by anything I've ever written here. Find something you think I ought to be embarassed about.

There are plenty of people who don't LIKE what I write, but far fewer who can coherently disagree with it. I'm fine with that.

I'm not going to waste any more of my time or yours by trying to engage you in an argument regarding some of the ultra libertarian nonsense you've written here. I consider myself pretty libertarian in my leanings but I'm pretty sure some of that stuff would garner a disdainful chuckle or two from Lew Rockwell himself!

Regardless, I think you've summed up my beef with you and those of your ilk pretty well with your assertion that you'll stand by anything you've ever written here. In my book that's either a sign of pathological self delusion or someone who is a manipulative blowhard. No man is infallible. Not even the almighty Matt from Fargo.

Oh, before you decide to try to dredge up something I've written here to throw back at me, I'll freely admit to having made some ill-considered statements in my time here. You'll have to work some other angle if you want to crush me, but you're a smart boy, so I'm sure you'll figure something out

[option00002]

Our 2002 VW Eurovan is quite practical in a German utilitarian way. It's just the GLS model, so no pop-top and funky rear-facing captain chairs like the Weekender model. Large rear hatch door kills it's usability for most women, though, since it opens high and has to be pulled down, with the possibility of the rear glass hitting a garage door (like what the PO did at some point).

Has great outward visibility, the seating height is much like any current full-size pickup so that also means climbing in (has convenient handles on the A-pillar. Interior roof height is good, too, so the rear seats are more upright and much like sitting on a regular chair-- this works better for me than your typical minivan setups for long-trip comfort. But it is more truck-like than minivan, so not as pleasant as any of the ones on the market to drive. And even with the 2.8L VR6 (5-cyl vans are quite a bit slower), you long for more torque in a vehicle of this weight. Cruises very nicely on the highway and feels solid, tracking like any German sedan. Cross-winds won't budge it. Did I mention sheets of plywood lay down in the back? Or bicycles can stand upright inside? Can't do that with a regular minivan.

However, I won't say it is the most robust/reliable vehicle. Subject to VW electronics issues typical for the era and poor quality interior plastic trim with that nasty "soft touch" coating that turns to goop.

Would be a nice vehicle with one of the high-output European diesel drivetrains...

I think vans are under-appreciated. For what we use it for, insuring a pickup truck would be a considerably more expensive vehicle to keep for infrequent usage for trips to the home supply stores.

So you're that guy!

There's one in every county.

Disclaimer: I have always rather liked the Eurovan.

[Matt]

Regardless, I think you've summed up my beef with you and those of your ilk pretty well with your assertion that you'll stand by anything you've ever written here. In my book that's either a sign of pathological self delusion or someone who is a manipulative blowhard. No man is infallible. Not even the almighty Matt from Fargo.

Your assertion was that I ought to be embarassed over things I've written. My response, in regards to standing by what I've said, was to that end.

I made no claim about everything I've ever said being right. What I meant by "I stand by it" is that I don't think I've ever written anything here that I am embarassed to have written: accurate, inaccurate, speculative, or otherwise.

I'm sure if you were to audit my postings here you'd find many instances of apparent contradiction. So obviously I'm not going to retroactively state that anything I've ever written on MyE28.com is gospel truth. Hell, I probably wrote here (I know I did other places) that "they" might not be holding elections in 2010. Obviously that bit of speculation (thankfully!) didn't pan out.

Jesus was infallable. Everyone else is subject to peer review.

Of course, rotten tomatoes being chucked from the peanut gallary has little to do with "peer" or "review".

I'm thrilled that you even know who Lew Rockwell is. In my opinion he's more an acolyte than an original thinker, but that's more than I can say for myself.

[Lee in MD]

Regardless, I think you've summed up my beef with you and those of your ilk pretty well with your assertion that you'll stand by anything you've ever written here. In my book that's either a sign of pathological self delusion or someone who is a manipulative blowhard. No man is infallible. Not even the almighty Matt from Fargo.

Your assertion was that I ought to be embarassed over things I've written. My response, in regards to standing by what I've said, was to that end.

I made no claim about everything I've ever said being right. What I meant by "I stand by it" is that I don't think I've ever written anything here that I am embarassed to have written: accurate, inaccurate, speculative, or otherwise.

I'm sure if you were to audit my postings here you'd find many instances of apparent contradiction. So obviously I'm not going to retroactively state that anything I've ever written on MyE28.com is gospel truth. Hell, I probably wrote here (I know I did other places) that "they" might not be holding elections in 2010. Obviously that bit of speculation (thankfully!) didn't pan out.

Jesus was infallable. Everyone else is subject to peer review.

Of course, rotten tomatoes being chucked from the peanut gallary has little to do with "peer" or "review".

I'm thrilled that you even know who Lew Rockwell is. In my opinion he's more an acolyte than an original thinker, but that's more than I can say for myself.

OK, fair enough. Speaking of Mr. Rockwell, I'll admit that I actually don't know too much about him except that he's a somewhat of a big name in the libertarian scene. However I did have lunch with his sister a few weekends ago so that's got to count for something doesn't it?

True story: A buddy of mine invited me to tag along for a gun show outing / lunch meeting with his libertarian book club and I ended up sitting next to Lew's sister at lunch. I think she was a little miffed when she was introduced to me as Lew Rockwell's sister and I said "who's Lew Rockwell?". Fortunately, she must have been impressed enough with me, after we chatted about the pros and cons of the TSA porno scanners, to forgive me since she asked my buddy if I would be coming to future book club meetings. Seemed like a pretty interesting bunch, so I probably will.

[Justin_FL]

So you're that guy!

There's one in every county.

Disclaimer: I have always rather liked the Eurovan.

Hehe... well, I was never clued in to them and thought they were just goofy looking vehicles. But my brother liked them. We were about to buy a clean '05 GMC Express 2500, with the 6.0L and factory tow package, driver/passenger side cargo doors with glass (rare option in cargo vans but great for visibility and convenience), and it had the factory bulkhead partition to cut down on the noise. The newer full-size vans drive much better than the dated Astro van and with a 2500 chassis, a car trailer would be a drama-free tow. But it was too much van for our general use and would take up too much space in the garage. The EV is longer and not much wider than a car, so we can park three vehicles across without issue. Finding a Eurovan is pretty hard, but a decent enough one came up about 2 hours away for cheap by a shop that was selling for the owner. The owner just didn't have the money to fix the van so after a cash infusion of mechanical repairs and minor bodywork to tidy up some dents and scratches it presents well. It has some OE 18" dealer takeoffs from a new Passat for added bling. For a van, I guess, it does not look all that bad.

[David Hunt]

Yup, a wagon is much better than a van to drive, but dammit, it doesn't take much to fill it up.
Stroller, cooler, tent, food, a few fold up chairs and you're done for the back. This is with an 8 yr old and a toddler. The 8 yo automatically packs 8 or 10 cu ft of crap, and you might be able to stuff it in front of the car-seat, but that means dis-assembly at every other stop. It falls apart quickly.
After borrowing my brother's Toyota Sienna, I realized that the 8 yo's stuff expands to fill whatever space is available.
Also means more to clean, but at least it's easier to access.

[scott s]

I hate minivans in general but there is one...


Best minivan ever made:
Plymouth Grand Voyager Turbo
15 second 1/4 with a 5 speed.

[mitch]

I hate minivans in general but there is one...


Best minivan ever made:
Plymouth Grand Voyager Turbo
15 second 1/4 with a 5 speed.

Ha. My mom had an '89 Plymouth Voyager with the 2.5LTurbo when I was in high school. I used to beat the HELL out of that poor thing...

[benfidar]

All of us just went on a 2100 mile car trip in our e39 wagon and it was great. The kids are 6 and 8 and we had enough room. I think that we would have brought a lot more stuff with us if we had a van, but I doubt that we would have used more stuff than what we ended up bringing. Before the e39 we had a e34 touring and there is little doubt that we will get an e60 touring soon. Until recently we had a large dog (r.i.p. Scout) and used to drive around all together quite well. We also go camping all the time with four bikes and a weeks worth of stuff, albeit without the dog. I have often contemplated getting a w123 MB wagon because of the third row, but, the kids and their friends will be too big to sit back there really soon. I think it is a question of how much stuff you need. I figure, however much space I have got my wife is going to fill it!

And besides, the e28 is a real step up in room for me, I pressed the kids as infants in rearward facing carseats up against the rear glass and in the jumpseats of a succession of 912s and 911s until they were 3 and 5! Only Wisconsin snow prevents me from doing it now. That took some acrobatic contortion to get them in!!! Some crone at the Stop 'n Shop in CT once told me that I would have to sell my '69 912 now that I had kids, so I told her, "Hey lady, she made me get this and sell the BMW motorcycle (R100RS), so why don't you mind your own damn business?!"

[David Hunt]

plus one on the, what, 2nd gen Chrysler minivans, circa 95 or so.
IF you can find one that has a good transmission, these are very practical. I hauled a huge amount of stuff in one, and they hold the 4x8 sheet of whatever, no tarp required. Very useful vehicle, but that inevitable $1700 transmission kept me out of one of those. It was always a question of when, not if that trans was going down.

[cvillebimmer]

I love our Honda van. It has a job and does it far better than any BMW.

Apparently, BMW of Charlottesville thinks so too:



Don't worry, I was at a stop light.

[PrionaceGlauca]

Minivans are so practical.

Courtesy - http://www.youdrivewhat.com