Naturally Aspirated Vs. Forced Induction: Who's Got Opinions

[sbeckman7]

I don't think I know you and you probably will be offended at what I have to say, but looking at this "dissertation" makes me think that you have a bunch of pseudo-facts, opinions and questions jumbled together in an effort to sound intelligent. It's hard for me to swallow.

However, I do have an opinion on this subject. When I told people I was building my M7 project back in 2000, some (who still frequent this board) gave me a hard time about my choice. I chose to stick an S38 engine into my car, rather than build an M30 turbo. These were the reasons:

1. Instantaneous response and easy modulation of the throttle.
2. Reliability (concern over blowing head gaskets on the track).
3. CA emission standards. Passing a non-CA approved turbo package would require a minimum of $2500 for a 2 day test plus the cost of compliance. And there's no guarantee it would pass the first time.
4. BMW mechanics could work on the car.
5. Just in general, worried about a system not specifically built for the car (again, this car is taken on the track).

The issues of sound (ITBs are glorious) and headers with free flowing exhaust are bonuses.

The "advantages" to an M30 turbo would have been:

a. Lower INITIAL cost. Yes, I paid a lot to have the s38 installed.
b. The ability to produce more power and torque.

After 9 years and 85,000 miles (including about 6,000 track miles) I can say I made the right decision. I have had ZERO problems with my engine. NADA. Other than maintenence, my next expense is three rebuilt power steering pumps (they don't like regular trips to 6900 rpm). I still pass CA emissions with the same E36M3 cat installed 8 years ago. When I drive on the track, people look at the car and know there is something different with the engine...I love it.

Could I have had a more powerful car with a turbo M30? Of course. Did I spend too much money? Who knows, if I had blown a head gasket and ruined an engine, how much is it to rebuild a new one? And maybe it would blow again. And then there is potential down time. With the S38 I have peace of mind knowing I can floor the pedal to redline and all is well...

I really like your ability to insult the writing and then make up for it with the S38 story

But really, I appreciate the opinion. I'm only 17, but still I think it sounds pretty good for someone my age. Again I would have included the rest of the context where it benefits the paper much more wholly but it is 15 pages long.

[sbeckman7]

Apparently, you have never heard a Ducati 900, a Harley Davidson 883, or a BMW R100. All are a mere two cylinders and not quite one liter in size.

This. You would not believe how deep and wonderful my VTR250 sounds at full clip. My GL1000 Goldwing with Ducati mufflers sounds pretty fooking good too. Ever heard an old Porsche? They sound pretty fantastic, and are 4 bangers. 325i M20? Sounds good to me with the right exhaust. Ever heard an Evo E30 M3 at WOT? Ferrari 308?

It sounds as though you are limiting your knowledge of the sound of engines to rice boy cars with fart cans vs big v8s. Properly exhausted 4 bangers can sound great, too, as can small displacement 5 and up cylinder engines.

As for your turbo vs. NA debate, proper tuning and mechanical trickery are just as important with an FI car as with NA.

9 times out of 10 larger engines make more power blah blah. No support for that argument at all. Don't you realize that European engines, largely due to displacement based tax structure, tend to make more power per displacement than US engines? The BMW big 6 pretty much trounced most larger displacement engines for decades stock for stock.

I'd have given you an F the moment you cited Wikipedia as a source vs. actually looking up the origin of the info on Wiki.

I hadn't realized the wikipedia citation should have been replaced by the actual one until you pointed that out, so thanks for the tip. As for the case of the Ferrari 308, I realized some few weeks after I had written the paper that I had not come across as clearly as I originally intended. I believe a small engine with 4 or less cylinders does not sound appealing. But a small displacement engine with 6+ cylinders can easily sound amazing. The Ferrari 308 is a great example, as is BMW's 1994-5 530i with the M60B30 (Although both fall in line with my argument that engines with displacements of 3 liters and up sound best). Some other examples are of course nearly every single F1 engine, as well as the Hartley H1 2.8L V8 made from 2 hayabusa engines. However, I would not say that I am limiting my examples to fart-can-equipped rice rockets and big V8's, although I appreciate that you noting that is how the paper sounds. I prefer the noise of all of bmw's 6 cylinder engines over their 4's, even in the m3 Evo. Another realization I had was that I like the sound of more cylinders versus less, no matter what the displacement is, because the actual exhaust note of each cylinders stroke can be heard, meaning cars with more cylinders have a more steady, smooth, and powerful noise where as cars with 5 or less have a more broken up exhaust note, giving me the impression that they sound less powerful. I would take a 2 liter six straight over a 4 liter 4 or 5 cylinder any day. Lastly, for the 9 out of 10 times... part: "European engines, largely due to displacement based tax structure, tend to make more power per displacement than US engines" I completely agree with this, but the US as a engine manufacturing country can almost be seen as an anomaly due to the fact that we haven't been trying to make efficient engines because of cheap gas prices. Therefore, comparing European engines to European engines shows that their larger displacement n/a engines make more power than their smaller n/a engines (and even some FI engines as well, but there are cases that support both sides when turbos are brought in). Even your example with BMW's "Big Six" strays from your argument in its title alone: Big Six.

[Coldswede]

I doubt the OP has ever heard a tuned 1750 DOHC Alfa engine going through the gears. Few engines make better sounds that that 4 cylinder.

Also much of what an engine sounds like is proper exhaust with good choices of muffler and resonator.

[mooseheadm5]

Big 6 is only used as a moniker to differentiate it from the M20 baby/small 6, which is also a great motor. The M50 series engines are based on the M20 architecture and are the basis of the up to 3.2L engines that make 333+ hp various states of factory tune. In fact, the S50US makes more horsepower than any stock NA big 6 ever did, and if you want to compare 4 valve motors, the S54B32 made more horsepower than the S38B35, B36, and even B38 in M3LTW tune (less torque, though.)

[snakebrain]

4 pot. 2.3L. Perfect!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlMZ_v7rJs8

[Jeremy]

My friend's built 1.4 liter MG motor with 2 valves per cylinder, twin SUs, and around 13:1 static compression makes absolutely wonderful sounds. It's not displacement, or even cylinder count. It's all tuning and exhaust note. You don't need high hp/L or cylinder counts >4 to get this.

Jeremy

[Kenny Blankenship]

I don't think I know you and you probably will be offended at what I have to say, but looking at this "dissertation" makes me think that you have a bunch of pseudo-facts, opinions and questions jumbled together in an effort to sound intelligent. It's hard for me to swallow.

However, I do have an opinion on this subject. When I told people I was building my M7 project back in 2000, some (who still frequent this board) gave me a hard time about my choice. I chose to stick an S38 engine into my car, rather than build an M30 turbo. These were the reasons:

1. Instantaneous response and easy modulation of the throttle.
2. Reliability (concern over blowing head gaskets on the track).
3. CA emission standards. Passing a non-CA approved turbo package would require a minimum of $2500 for a 2 day test plus the cost of compliance. And there's no guarantee it would pass the first time.
4. BMW mechanics could work on the car.
5. Just in general, worried about a system not specifically built for the car (again, this car is taken on the track).

The issues of sound (ITBs are glorious) and headers with free flowing exhaust are bonuses.

The "advantages" to an M30 turbo would have been:

a. Lower INITIAL cost. Yes, I paid a lot to have the s38 installed.
b. The ability to produce more power and torque.

After 9 years and 85,000 miles (including about 6,000 track miles) I can say I made the right decision. I have had ZERO problems with my engine. NADA. Other than maintenence, my next expense is three rebuilt power steering pumps (they don't like regular trips to 6900 rpm). I still pass CA emissions with the same E36M3 cat installed 8 years ago. When I drive on the track, people look at the car and know there is something different with the engine...I love it.

Could I have had a more powerful car with a turbo M30? Of course. Did I spend too much money? Who knows, if I had blown a head gasket and ruined an engine, how much is it to rebuild a new one? And maybe it would blow again. And then there is potential down time. With the S38 I have peace of mind knowing I can floor the pedal to redline and all is well...

I really like your ability to insult the writing and then make up for it with the S38 story

But really, I appreciate the opinion. I'm only 17, but still I think it sounds pretty good for someone my age. Again I would have included the rest of the context where it benefits the paper much more wholly but it is 15 pages long.

I think when you graduate from college (you are going to college, right?) you will be either a real good salesman or a psychiatrist. Tim in FL, take note...

[sbeckman7]

Looking at UC Davis and (hopefully) Cal Poly!

[Tammer in Philly]

long legs Vs big tits

Are fortunately not mutually exclusive.

-tammer

[Tammer in Philly]

Pushrod V8 Vs. OHC (single or double) V8?

Pushrod if it's an LS7. DOHC if it's an S85.

I'd like one of each, actually. The former would make one hell of an E34 Touring.
-tammer

[doug]

Why [do] car enthusiasts become so emotive about the sound of their cars - is it, for example, perhaps a conditioned response derived from the association of that sound with the pleasurable sensation of acceleration?

That's something interesting to ponder. While stopped at a gas station in L.A. last night I happened to notice a fairly decent example of what I think was a '66 Malibu wagon. Hearing that 327 (I assume) idle from 50' was so evocative of my teenage years I nearly cried. Well, not really, but it was pretty cool, and to my ears, beautiful Unfortunately, nobody there but my wife and teenage daughters to share it with. It didn't have the slightest effect on them.

[sbeckman7]

Why [do] car enthusiasts become so emotive about the sound of their cars - is it, for example, perhaps a conditioned response derived from the association of that sound with the pleasurable sensation of acceleration?

That's something interesting to ponder. While stopped at a gas station in L.A. last night I happened to notice a fairly decent example of what I think was a '66 Malibu wagon. Hearing that 327 (I assume) idle from 50' was so evocative of my teenage years I nearly cried. Well, not really, but it was pretty cool, and to my ears, beautiful Unfortunately, nobody there but my wife and teenage daughters to share it with. It didn't have the slightest effect on them.

So we're establishing now that they can evoke an emotional, nostalgic response as well as a auditory pleasurable one. Sorry to take it to the next level, but I was reading an interesting article that stated the sounds of exotic cars actually have been proven to increase hormonal activity in men and woman alike. Not that this has to to with the original question, just sound in general. Also one of my main points in my paper.

Thats a great story by the way, I can picture the scene

[snakebrain]

So we're establishing now that they can evoke an emotional, nostalgic response as well as a auditory pleasurable one.

And possibly that you'll be crying over the sound of a Prius in 40 years...

[sbeckman7]

So we're establishing now that they can evoke an emotional, nostalgic response as well as a auditory pleasurable one.

And possibly that you'll be crying over the sound of a Prius in 40 years...

Hahahaha, except that I wont even hear it. It'll be more like this...

....*70 years old, reading a book in my coomfy wingback chair*
The house is silent.
*Sniff* "Oh, those lovely Prius'!!!"

[M. Holtmeier]

So we're establishing now that they can evoke an emotional, nostalgic response as well as a auditory pleasurable one.

And possibly that you'll be crying over the sound of a Prius in 40 years...

Hahahaha, except that I wont even hear it. It'll be more like this...

....*70 years old, reading a book in my coomfy wingback chair*
The house is silent.
*Sniff* "Oh, those lovely Prius'!!!"

What sound would that be, the slight crunch of tires rolling over pavement?

[CSBolger]

So we're establishing now that they can evoke an emotional, nostalgic response as well as a auditory pleasurable one.

And possibly that you'll be crying over the sound of a Prius in 40 years...

Hahahaha, except that I wont even hear it. It'll be more like this...

....*70 years old, reading a book in my coomfy wingback chair*
The house is silent.
*Sniff* "Oh, those lovely Prius'!!!"

What sound would that be, the slight crunch of tires rolling over pavement?

No, the old man in his "classic" Prius yelling at kids to recycle more.

[ScottWL38]

Vanilla Vs. Chocolate: Who's Got Opinions? Me!

Blondes Vs. Brunettes: Who's Got Opinions? Me!

Republicans Vs. Democrats: Who's Got Opinions? Me!

Coke Vs. Pepsi: Who's Got Opinions? Me!

Ford Vs Chevy: Who's Got Opinions? Ummm, not me.

[Lee in MD]

You can get with THIS or you can get with THAT.

[sbeckman7]

You can get with THIS or you can get with THAT.

Worst commercial I have ever seen. Ever.

[chukrad]

[Lee in MD]

You can get with THIS or you can get with THAT.

Worst commercial I have ever seen. Ever.

Guess you don't get out much if that's the 'worst' you've ever seen. Lamest hyperbole by a newb EVAR!

[sbeckman7]

Guess you don't get out much if that's the 'worst' you've ever seen. Lamest hyperbole by a newb EVAR!

Tv's are inside