Looking at an E34 Touring - now with better photos

bmwm3n528 · Post by **bmwm3n528** » Dec 15, 2009 1:12 AM

Chris,

Here's a buddy's Orient Blau 5er Touring of a different vintage...

Tammer in Philly · Post by **Tammer in Philly** » Dec 15, 2009 1:17 AM

bmwm3n528 wrote:Chris,

Here's a buddy's Orient Blau 5er Touring of a different vintage... :D

Did your buddy buy that car through a Roundel ad? If it's the car I'm thinking of, it's pretty much perfect.

-tammer

mooseheadm5 · Post by **mooseheadm5** » Dec 15, 2009 1:21 AM

I didn't say wet noodle = no grip. However, wet noodle implies poor transitional handling characteristics. I still have shitty 15s on my car (tires I have never heard of on the rear) and it still does great on the back roads where, if I don't pay attention, I find myself going well over any posted speed limit or suggested corner speed. I should also mention that the accumulators are shot, so the rear end is low and basically as stiff as Bimmerguy's car. It leaps over every bump. Oddly, though, no sunroof rattle or fatal handling flaws. I can't wait until I get the right rubber and shocks on the car.

My back to back frame of reference is the 325ti that I drive regularly that has M suspension on it and 16s. Compared to that, the E34 definitely is not rock solid, but I would say that it is not nearly as much of a flexi flyer as an E36 cab or Alfa Spyder, or any number of other cars I sampled every day at the shop where I used to work. I don't think comparing it to a smaller coupe with an 8 point cage is exactly fair, though. I personally wouldn't go racing mine (properly set up or not) but it is definitely no slouch compared to its class rivals.

I'm with you on the removeable strut brace. I'll definitely be doing something of that sort. If you can make the parts stow away under one of the covers you should market them.

bmwm3n528 · Post by **bmwm3n528** » Dec 15, 2009 1:29 AM

This fellow, whom I imagine several of our members are familiar with (Scott Epstein) picked this car up around Georgia, IIRC. It was a e39 Touring that was converted into an M5 using two M5 donor cars and a LOT of work. Scott simply finished it up and refined it. It's absolutely stunning, and incredibly accurate now.

Tammer in Philly wrote:
bmwm3n528 wrote:Chris,

Here's a buddy's Orient Blau 5er Touring of a different vintage...
Did your buddy buy that car through a Roundel ad? If it's the car I'm thinking of, it's pretty much perfect.

-tammer

mooseheadm5 · Post by **mooseheadm5** » Dec 15, 2009 1:29 AM

Tammer in Philly wrote: Beautiful. I dig having an M30 touring, but logically the S52 is the smarter choice. More power, better mileage, lower maintenance, lighter weight, and much more of a bolt-in swap on an M50 donor car. What diff ratio does that car have? I'm assuming not the stock 4.10:1. A 3.46 would be perfect for an OBD1-converted S52 with a 7k rpm rev limit.

For the fuel economy I get in the M30 wagon, I'd rather have an M60B44.

-tammer

I don't know what ratio it has. He did the 5 speed swap on it before I did the engine swap. I assume it has a 3.46. The first time the engine swapped in was an S50 done in 12 hours that turned out to have cracked ring lands. The second was the S52 done in 8 hours about 2 weeks later.

I didn't realize that your car has an M30. Mine is getting crappy mileage (that has absolutely nothing to do with the way I flog it

) right now but a stick should help. I was looking at a 530 wagon, but I would have had to immediately swap the failing trans. After that I would have had to do the B44.

I have just procured a 3.46 for my car. I plan to put a 265 behind it though, so it is going to end up feeling like an eta. Maybe I'll try it with the 4:10 for a bit. The 325ti was really fun with a 4.44 for a couple of days.

Tammer in Philly · Post by **Tammer in Philly** » Dec 15, 2009 1:38 AM

mooseheadm5 wrote:I didn't say wet noodle = no grip. However, wet noodle implies poor transitional handling characteristics.

Well, it's all in context. A floppy BMW still out-handles most cars on the market. I wouldn't say the handling is bad at all--in fact, with the slight rear weight bias of the touring, this is the best/most fun snow car I've ever owned and it doesn't understeer as much as the sedan (square tires and rear sway help there as well). Where I really notice the body flex is on rough roads and particularly over mid-corner bumps, which send a big shiver through the chassis.

My back to back frame of reference is the 325ti that I drive regularly that has M suspension on it and 16s. Compared to that, the E34 definitely is not rock solid, but I would say that it is not nearly as much of a flexi flyer as an E36 cab or Alfa Spyder, or any number of other cars I sampled every day at the shop where I used to work. I don't think comparing it to a smaller coupe with an 8 point cage is exactly fair, though. I personally wouldn't go racing mine (properly set up or not) but it is definitely no slouch compared to its class rivals.

Hey, I never said the comparison was fair!

I'm with you on the removeable strut brace. I'll definitely be doing something of that sort. If you can make the parts stow away under one of the covers you should market them.

It's not at the top of the priority list (getting house ready to market and finishing up final race car tasks are first in line), but I do want to take a look at it and see what's feasible. I'll have all that rear area trim out to address some hatch wiring issues in the spring; I'll have to do some thinking about it.

Here's some info on my car from it's prior owner, you may have heard of the guy: http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=43884. Between that thread and my purchase, many of the minor problems were addressed. All I've done to the car is add BBS RXs with Bridgestone summer rubber, some maintenance, I had Adam's shop install an M5 exhaust just before purchase, and I addressed the slow sunroof by repeated cleaning and lubing of all the moving parts. Other than that, I just drive it (quite a lot, it turns out--it has 215k on it now). It's a great car.

BTW, the mileage Adam quotes in that thread is off. The OBC has no idea what's going on in that car. I've kept careful records since my purchase, and it does 23-24 mpg highway (that's at my lead-foot speeds, e.g. Philadelphia to Columbus, OH in under 6.5 hours), and an abysmal 13-14 mpg around town. My average over ~10k miles with the car is 18 mpg and change with an even split of city and highway driving. Once I drove a long way at 65 mph on cruise--pure torture, by the way--just to see what it would do. 27 mpg! Not really all that bad, I just never see that kind of number in regular use.

-tammer

rlomba8204 · Post by **rlomba8204** » Dec 15, 2009 6:44 AM

I'll dissent and offer this:

With a new-ish (to you house) you don't need another car project, not if you want to keep the house in the same condition as the cars.

If you do want another car, sell some wheels

, save your nickels and find a touring that doesn't need work. Given the overall state of the economy, I would guess you can find a very nice, low mileage e39 touring for not that much more money, and it will require much less of your time and money to bring it into the condition to which you will undoubtedly want it. Keeping it in that condition will prove easier than a quasi-resto project with close to 200k on it. The headliner alone in this car is a PITA.

mooseheadm5 · Post by **mooseheadm5** » Dec 15, 2009 10:20 AM

I looked at a couple of E39 tourings and the big problem I have with those cars is that they degrade much more swiftly and are more sensitive to abuse. In the long run the E34 is a much cheaper vehicle to own. The Orient car seems to not need much at all. A cheap E39 will likely need window regulators (1 to 4 of them, they are junk) inside of a year, an ABS controller, a complete cooling system overhaul unless it had just been done, might have electronic throttle body issues, etc. I would be able to address all of these issues labor wise, and I even have access to an Autologic or two, but the sheer cost of the parts was such that I went for the E34. Someone I work with has an E39 wagon with similar mileage as my E34 and hers spends more time being repaired than mine. In fact, her husband now works at the shop, too, and he is getting tired of constantly putting time and money into the car.

Add to that an E39 with low miles will cost roughly double the buy in as this particular wagon and I don't think the E39 can be cross shopped with this one. Of course the E39 will start out as the faster car, but the E34 can be made faster much more cheaply and easily.

Tammer,
The OBC is likely off because it is not programmed for a big 6 (unless you swapped that too.) That program may be in the cluster on that car, though. I haven't poked around mine with the Autologic yet.

Tammer in Philly · Post by **Tammer in Philly** » Dec 15, 2009 10:25 AM

mooseheadm5 wrote:
Tammer,
The OBC is likely off because it is not programmed for a big 6 (unless you swapped that too.) That program may be in the cluster on that car, though. I haven't poked around mine with the Autologic yet.

Adam said he had the cluster/OBC re-coded, but I don't think it was done properly. It's very low on the priority list for me as I use a spreadsheet for mileage tracking.

-tammer

rlomba8204 · Post by **rlomba8204** » Dec 15, 2009 10:43 AM

mooseheadm5 wrote:I looked at a couple of E39 tourings and the big problem I have with those cars is that they degrade much more swiftly and are more sensitive to abuse. In the long run the E34 is a much cheaper vehicle to own. The Orient car seems to not need much at all. A cheap E39 will likely need window regulators (1 to 4 of them, they are junk) inside of a year, an ABS controller, a complete cooling system overhaul unless it had just been done, might have electronic throttle body issues, etc. I would be able to address all of these issues labor wise, and I even have access to an Autologic or two, but the sheer cost of the parts was such that I went for the E34. Someone I work with has an E39 wagon with similar mileage as my E34 and hers spends more time being repaired than mine. In fact, her husband now works at the shop, too, and he is getting tired of constantly putting time and money into the car.

Add to that an E39 with low miles will cost roughly double the buy in as this particular wagon and I don't think the E39 can be cross shopped with this one. Of course the E39 will start out as the faster car, but the E34 can be made faster much more cheaply and easily.

E34s and E39s have weaknesses. Saying one is more expensive to own than another is hard without seeing the examples being considered. Yes, e39s have window regulator issues. But the interiors on the e34, pre-94/95 have many issues too -- door panels delaminate, headliners fall, etc. To say one is "better" than another is not my point, rather that when you start getting into cars that are more than 10 years old, the condition of a particular example is more important than generalizations about which car is better, etc. In my experience, most e34s and e39s I see, excluding the '01 and after facelifted models, look like crap now.

Also, I say what I say about Chris finding a much newer, lower mileage car because I know he has very high standards. Given those standards, it will, inevitably, be cheaper for him to buy a nicer car up front than to buy this 200k mile example and make it into what he wants, even if, in the case of a nice e39 wagon, he winds up spending mid to high teens to get a nice one. It will be a newer car in better condition, and it will be less of a rolling project.

mooseheadm5 · Post by **mooseheadm5** » Dec 15, 2009 3:27 PM

rlomba8204 wrote: E34s and E39s have weaknesses. Saying one is more expensive to own than another is hard without seeing the examples being considered. Yes, e39s have window regulator issues. But the interiors on the e34, pre-94/95 have many issues too -- door panels delaminate, headliners fall, etc. To say one is "better" than another is not my point, rather that when you start getting into cars that are more than 10 years old, the condition of a particular example is more important than generalizations about which car is better, etc. In my experience, most e34s and e39s I see, excluding the '01 and after facelifted models, look like crap now.

I am speaking from experience of how much money I make on one vs. the other. E39s are typically more expensive to own in the long run. For this reason they depreciate more quickly. Many of the issues that E39s face must be repaired at a dealer or an indy shop with very expensive equipment. The Autologic costs over $11k to buy and a couple thou to keep current. It is required if you want to replace an ABS control module or do any number of things that most of the E39s I have worked on need. It is rarely required for any cars earlier than the E39. The E34 is more suited to being repaired by a skilled DIYer than an E39 and therefore cheaper to own in the long run if owned by someone like Chris. Also, many of the (OE or OE quality) replacement parts for the E34 are cheaper and last longer than the ones for the E39. The problems that E34s have, even the higher mileage ones, tend to be less money intensive to repair as well.

Remember that people like Chris are also into modding their cars to suit their purpose. Chances are that even if he were to buy a nice mid-teens example E39 that he would be making changes to it to suit his tastes within a year. So why not start with a car that is more easily and cheaply modded by a DIYer? This is why I chose the E34 over the E39, not to mention the much smaller capital outlay for a car in comparable condition.

rlomba8204 · Post by **rlomba8204** » Dec 15, 2009 3:55 PM

How many things on an E34 or E32 require a GT1 to repair? My experience is that anything "electronic" with the 740i, to repair without guessing, requires the GT1. Same with my old E34. Based on that experience, under your guidance metric, I question whether you can really own one of these without a GT1.

All that said, I don't doubt that the e39 needs more specialized equipment and that the equipment is more expensive. That's just the nature of a newer car. But it doesn't mean you are necessarily better off buying the older car that, in this instance, has close to 200k miles on it and is nearing 20 years old. Not when you've already got a "stable" of older cars.

At the end of the proverbial day, these things are subjective -- where you stand depends on where you sit so it's really just personal preference. I'd feel better about an e34 with much lower mileage.

mooseheadm5 · Post by **mooseheadm5** » Dec 15, 2009 4:00 PM

rlomba8204 wrote:How many things on an E34 or E32 require a GT1 to repair? My experience is that anything "electronic" with the 740i, to repair without guessing, requires the GT1. Same with my old E34. Based on that experience, under your guidance metric, I question whether you can really own one of these without a GT1.

The Autologic does everything the GT1 does. Honestly I have never had to send an E34 away for lack of a GT1, and that includes the shop where I worked that didn't have the Autologic (we only had a Snap-On MT2500.) The E32s are a different kettle of fish electronically speaking, but I haven't had to send one of those away, either.

California Dreamin' · Post by **California Dreamin'** » Dec 15, 2009 5:18 PM

I sense that part of why you're interested is because of the car's color. Having owned an Island Green wagon for years, I can tell you that COLOR MATTERS! I would buy it, even if you can barely swing it.

I second all the above comments about E34 touring maladies except the 'wet noodle' comment. But, I have never driven an E39, although I would imagine that chassis was sitffer than an E34, which was stiffer than an E28, which in turn was . . . . You get the point. Our wagon handled quite well, and I never noticed any sort of cowl shake. But Tammer's comments make sense (huge sunroof opening, no rear bulkhead).

Wkohler, if you pull the trigger I'll emphasize that you check a few things:

rear glass gas struts - they are a big pain to change.

You already know about rear hatch wiring issues. Visually check that all items are working, even if no error messages are present. That includes both hatch release switches.

Check to see that the car really has had its rear LAD deleted. In my book, a good self-levelling delete is priceless. (Although our wagon was pretty fun to drive when the LAD went to full-hard mode - maybe that hard suspension masked the 'wet noodle'?).

They are not powerhouses, but with a 4.11 they get up and move. I came away feeling like the M50TU was a pretty robust engine. And, finally, three words: self-adjusting valves.

Cheers,
CD

mooseheadm5 · Post by **mooseheadm5** » Dec 15, 2009 5:28 PM

The 95 wouldn't have LAD/SLS from the factory I have been told.

wkohler · Post by **wkohler** » Dec 15, 2009 5:34 PM

The owner has to work from 9am to 9pm, but I drove by to see if the car was still there, and it is, so I'm going to grab the camera and go take some photos. I had pretty much talked myself out of it, but I drove by to look at it again - particularly the exterior.

mooseheadm5 · Post by **mooseheadm5** » Dec 15, 2009 5:53 PM

Why the hell am I stoked about seeing pics of the car? You'd be buying it, I'll never see it, and I've already got one.
Good luck and hope you make the right decision for you (not the rest of us.)

oldskool · Post by **oldskool** » Dec 15, 2009 6:16 PM

Buy it! And we can then have the E28, E34 and Sunbeam Tiger forum that everyone really wants and deserves.

WVe28 · Post by **WVe28** » Dec 15, 2009 7:18 PM

oldskool wrote:Buy it! And we can then have the E28, E34 and Sunbeam Tiger forum that everyone really wants and deserves.

I caught myself talking about Tigers the other day at work. I hate you, Duke!

wkohler · Post by **wkohler** » Dec 15, 2009 9:59 PM

Here are some pictures:

Ding in the rear sunroof panel:

Wiper arm:

Left Side:

Left Front:

Close-up of LF dings, etc (note the door seal through the window)

Right Rear (curb rash on wheel):

Right Side:

Left Rear Wheel:

Left Front Wheel:

Right Front Wheel (has different brand tire and cap is inside car (hex lock is missing):

Obviously, it's not perfect, but I don't expect it to be with the $2500 asking price. I know it definitely needs a radiator, and the owners have factored that and the TLC needed into their price, though I was told they'd take less with me being an enthusiast. I get the feeling these cars are less straight-forward than the E28, so that as well as the issue of me not needing another car is something that is keeping me from jumping in with both feet.

I obviously have other uses for the money I would tie up in this car. I'd like to get the black car sorted and get towards painting the red one. The black car stalled plans at this time last year with the red one.

I'll leave it at that and will think about it a bit more tonight and hopefully make a decision.

mooseheadm5 · Post by **mooseheadm5** » Dec 15, 2009 10:05 PM

I would factor in what you can get for the wheels as well. Maybe a PPI if you are seriously interested.

wkohler · Post by **wkohler** » Dec 15, 2009 10:09 PM

I find that an odd response from someone excited to see the photos.

mooseheadm5 · Post by **mooseheadm5** » Dec 15, 2009 10:16 PM

Well, I am an odd guy.

I would jump on that car if I didn't already have one (literally, I would buy that car and drive it back here.) It's up to you now, though.

bran · Post by **bran** » Dec 15, 2009 10:58 PM

Hey Chris,
I'm looking forward to hearing from you soon! Take it easy,

brandon

davintosh · Post by **davintosh** » Dec 15, 2009 11:35 PM

oldskool wrote:Buy it! And we can then have the E28, E34 and Sunbeam Tiger forum that everyone really wants and deserves.

Don't forget the e32!

Maybe a name change is in order; I just checked, and thisoldbmw.com is available. Maybe I'll register that!

Chris: Looks nice in pictures; definitely worth the $2,500. Maybe you just need to sell one of the e28's?

California Dreamin' · Post by **California Dreamin'** » Dec 15, 2009 11:37 PM

Now that I've seen the pics, $2,500 would be stretching it for me. Interior issues are a pain to deal with (including that driver's door seal), the body is a 20-footer, and the unknown tranny history are all strikes.

On the plus side, if the A/C really, really works (maybe seller even has info on the sword and / or A/C work?), that is definitely worth something. Even the Micro filter is a pain to change, and they all need changing. But for $2,500 I'd want some useful service history with receipts to be included.

cvillebimmer · Post by **cvillebimmer** » Dec 16, 2009 8:55 AM

I disagree. If not a good deal, $2500 is definitely fair. I vote to buy. Show up with $2200 cash.

carnutdallas · Post by **carnutdallas** » Dec 16, 2009 9:29 AM

To me that car looks too edgy for $2500. Like everyone else has said, many expensive issues with e34 Tourings, that can be a pain to deal with. I look for three things in a car: exterior, interior, mechanicals. Has to have two of the three to even consider buying at asking price. I think the seller is getting a better deal at $2500. I say it is an $1800 car with that kind of mileage, with that motor and known issues. To each his own, but at $1800 you can get out from under it if you need too. I say spend the money on your other cars. $2500 will go a long way to making those cars much more enjoyable. My new philosophy is to stop buying other peoples turds and buy nice cars, paying for the pluses up front and running from the negatives. That means saving more of my money, for the real deals that only come once and a while. All the best in what ever you decide.

Grant01 · Post by **Grant01** » Dec 16, 2009 12:06 PM

Hey, I know that car! I installed the springs and shocks some time ago, as well as purchase one of their other cars. 3000 would be high, I think 2500 is fair, but 2000 is more ideal given the mileage and quirks of the car. when i was last under the car it was clean and tidy and really didnt need much. but that was atleast 40k ago i imagine. I would say try to get it for around 2k its a solid car that just needs some love to get it back to its prime, but still a good car.

Tammer in Philly · Post by **Tammer in Philly** » Dec 16, 2009 1:17 PM

carnutdallas wrote:To me that car looks too edgy for $2500. Like everyone else has said, many expensive issues with e34 Tourings, that can be a pain to deal with. I look for three things in a car: exterior, interior, mechanicals. Has to have two of the three to even consider buying at asking price. I think the seller is getting a better deal at $2500. I say it is an $1800 car with that kind of mileage, with that motor and known issues. To each his own, but at $1800 you can get out from under it if you need too. I say spend the money on your other cars. $2500 will go a long way to making those cars much more enjoyable. My new philosophy is to stop buying other peoples turds and buy nice cars, paying for the pluses up front and running from the negatives. That means saving more of my money, for the real deals that only come once and a while. All the best in what ever you decide.

Partially disagree. There are a lot of potential issues, but the only ones that get expensive on these cars are the sunroof (if you have to replace the entire cassette) and paint/body work, which is expensive on pretty much any car unless you can DIY (I can't).

Many of those dings can be handled by paintless dent repair. I'm not fond of the wheels (sorry, WVE28), but they should fetch a decent price and you can be in this car for $1800 or less net. It's not like Kohler doesn't have a set of wheels or 10 that will fit.

The color is unique, the overall condition is just average, but if the body is rust-free and electrical things are working, I'd go for it. Even if you just stick it on the back burner or DD it as-is for a while.

However, knowing Kohler's standards, he should consider buying Eric Knowles's E34 Touring with supercharged S50 and perfect everything: http://www.mkippen.com/blog/?p=846. I inquired about this car before I bought Adam's, and he was asking $25k. I told him it was worth half that and I think he was mildly offended. However, he's been emailing me every few months since with a lower price, and it's down to $15k or so now. Low mileage, very well-built, rare and very nice interior, plenty of power, etc. If it's still available--it was 6 or 8 weeks ago--I'll bet $12k cash would do it.

Word of warning to Kohler, if you do buy the blue touring, you will have $10k or more into it before you are done. S50 is cheaper than S52 OBD1, but even so figure on $2k for engine, $1k for transmission and related parts, you'll need to swap the diff (can't run the 4.10 rear with a 1:1 5th gear in the manual 'box), and by the time you address basic maintenance stuff as well (bushings, ball joints, etc.) and cosmetics, you're there. Especially if it needs paint work at all. Granted, if you know this going in, you can spend that money over 3 or 4 years, not all at once. Selling half your wheel stash would probably cover most of the big items and leave you with enough to tart up your black car.

-tammer

MyE28.com

MyE28.com

Looking at an E34 Touring - now with better photos