Turbo Clutch Discussion - Update 12/10/2009

T_C_D · Post by **T_C_D** » Oct 15, 2009 11:39 AM

The Sachs Sport pressure plate is very expensive. Retail price is $419. Any combination of Sachs pressure plate and someone elses disc and TO bearing is going to be at least $600.

Post by **Jeremy** » Oct 15, 2009 1:10 PM

All the discs would work with the any of the pressure plates, right? So if I have the UUC clutch kit (which I do), I could replace just the disc and keep the upgraded pressure plate?

As an alternative, why not use the stock or M5 pressure plate with a good clutch disc? The rating would be slightly reduced, but the cost for the complete package would certainly be much less. The upgraded pressure plate could be offered as an option since it adds so much cost.

Just thinking out loud. Errr, with my fingers ...

Jeremy

turbodan · Post by **turbodan** » Oct 15, 2009 1:20 PM

Jeremy wrote:All the discs would work with the any of the pressure plates, right? So if I have the UUC clutch kit (which I do), I could replace just the disc and keep the upgraded pressure plate?

As an alternative, why not use the stock or M5 pressure plate with a good clutch disc? The rating would be slightly reduced, but the cost for the complete package would certainly be much less. The upgraded pressure plate could be offered as an option since it adds so much cost.

Just thinking out loud. Errr, with my fingers ...

Jeremy

The thickness of the discs varies. Other than that, yeah.

Brad D. · Post by **Brad D.** » Oct 15, 2009 1:22 PM

I wonder what the clamp force is on an M5 PP. It can be had cheaply enough. Is there a difference in the Sachs "Sport" PP? Run this with a decent disc and I wonder what it would hold. The downside to this is that the torque holding would really be an unknown, as well as getting the clutch disc thickness correct.

Scottinva · Post by **Scottinva** » Oct 15, 2009 1:46 PM

Jeremy wrote:All the discs would work with the any of the pressure plates, right? So if I have the UUC clutch kit (which I do), I could replace just the disc and keep the upgraded pressure plate?

As an alternative, why not use the stock or M5 pressure plate with a good clutch disc? The rating would be slightly reduced, but the cost for the complete package would certainly be much less. The upgraded pressure plate could be offered as an option since it adds so much cost.

Just thinking out loud. Errr, with my fingers ...

Jeremy

The problem was getting the proper clamping force, without going to some exotic clutch material. It still seems that a slightly upgraded pressure plate, with the Kevlar clutch disc is the way to go. I'm not seeing any organics, that can deal with what Brad's car is capable of. I wonder what difference the m5 PP would over the stock one. Mate that with one of the good Kevlar discs, and should be good to go. Brad and I worked out some math and figured out the setup needs to handle about 450torque. Which is what his car should make under 18PSI, this is of course just basic math.

iXer · Post by **iXer** » Oct 15, 2009 1:56 PM

I've tested a S38B36 plate (fits early M30 flywheels) and it's at 650 kg @ 2 mm depression. So whatever thickness disc you use, when you lay it on the disc and start to fasten the bolts that hold it, make sure it only compresses about 2.0-2.5 mm or use hardened shims so it bottoms out earlier. If it's the other way around (thin disc or whatever) you'll have to lathe down the flywheel face where you bolt the plate.

I'm not really sure what it'll hold but it's built a lot better than stock (more and stronger straps) and I'm guessing a torque doubling is not a problem at all with non-organic discs.

As far as pedal force needed, with a non-compressing non-organic disc you won't need the pedal travel anymore so you can use a smaller master och larger slave cylinder. Loose some travel, gain some force.

Brad D. · Post by **Brad D.** » Oct 15, 2009 2:02 PM

Out of curiosity, what has changed that has made the UUC clutches unreliable? Is it quality, availability, etc? Also, is their pressure plate custom made or is it some type of rebadged Sachs unit? Also their disc really looks like a Sachs unit as well.

T_C_D · Post by **T_C_D** » Oct 15, 2009 2:32 PM

Big Bronze Rim wrote:Out of curiosity, what has changed that has made the UUC clutches unreliable? Is it quality, availability, etc? Also, is their pressure plate custom made or is it some type of rebadged Sachs unit? Also their disc really looks like a Sachs unit as well.

I am going to send you an email.

babisbabou · Post by **babisbabou** » Oct 15, 2009 5:00 PM

In my little village, Greece,heavy tuned cars at street racing use custom clutches BBR. There was a Kia(cosworth engine inside) with 4wheel drive and 500+ hp that could not get a proper clutch so he made one. But i can see you have a lot of nice options.

Brad D. · Post by **Brad D.** » Oct 15, 2009 11:35 PM

Here is an interesting Autospeed article on clutches. Their take on Kevlar clutches seems a bit different in that they claim high heat tolerance. Weird.

The Clutch of the Matter

turbodan · Post by **turbodan** » Oct 16, 2009 12:58 AM

Hmm. I guess tomorrow I'll try to dig up some of the crap I read.

Post by **tsmall07** » Oct 16, 2009 2:16 AM

So is there a way to run a multiplate clutch on an e28? From that read, it seems to be the way to go with the moderate e28 pressure plate.

How 'bout this changing the fulcrum on the pressure plate. Anyone have a spare they can try it on?

Scottinva · Post by **Scottinva** » Oct 16, 2009 5:59 AM

tsmall07 wrote:So is there a way to run a multiplate clutch on an e28? From that read, it seems to be the way to go with the moderate e28 pressure plate.

How 'bout this changing the fulcrum on the pressure plate. Anyone have a spare they can try it on?

The problem with that is a very very high cost. As far as I can see, just for a twin disc clutch, is about $1200+ dollars. Let alone than having to buy all the other stuff.

M. Holtmeier · Post by **M. Holtmeier** » Oct 16, 2009 8:02 AM

The Spec Super Twin clutch comes with a flywheel. Pretty pricey though at $2200. The Mini Twin comes with your choice of disk lining. I might send Spec an email on these to see what the availability is, I'm sure they get many requests for a twin plate setup for an e28!

I'm sticking with my ceramic, might upgrade to the 3+ full face disk if my pp is ok. I drove the car for the first time since the track and it actually feels better than it did before. I could not get it slip under the same conditions as on my way home from the track. I still want to take it apart to see how far the disk is eating into the flywheel/pp.

///ARINUTS... · Post by **///ARINUTS...** » Oct 16, 2009 10:38 AM

no one ever mentions center force dual friction. I like the concept of the pressure plate, it clamps harder as the RPM goes up. I'd like to hear from actual users......

turbodan · Post by **turbodan** » Oct 16, 2009 11:13 AM

I think it'd be more useful if it clamped harder based on torque input rather than RPM. Torque peaks in the midrange and drops off as RPM increases.

T_C_D · Post by **T_C_D** » Oct 16, 2009 11:13 AM

///ARINUTS... wrote:no one ever mentions center force dual friction. I like the concept of the pressure plate, it clamps harder as the RPM goes up. I'd like to hear from actual users......

That's because it's $979 without a TO bearing.

Brad D. · Post by **Brad D.** » Oct 16, 2009 11:16 AM

///ARINUTS... wrote:no one ever mentions center force dual friction. I like the concept of the pressure plate, it clamps harder as the RPM goes up. I'd like to hear from actual users......

Because it sucks. I called them yesterday, and for the measly sum of $800 you get a clutch that will hold 350 ft-lb at the flywheel. My stock clutch is doing that now!

Scottinva · Post by **Scottinva** » Oct 16, 2009 1:16 PM

Big Bronze Rim wrote:
///ARINUTS... wrote:no one ever mentions center force dual friction. I like the concept of the pressure plate, it clamps harder as the RPM goes up. I'd like to hear from actual users......
Because it sucks. I called them yesterday, and for the measly sum of $800 you get a clutch that will hold 350 ft-lb at the flywheel. My stock clutch is doing that now!

I want your stock clutch, i'm going to continue it's use. I read that clutch was rated for 250 ft-lb. It's holding 350 now, that clutch is made of something no human can understand

It's very speciallll

90e34535i · Post by **90e34535i** » Oct 21, 2009 4:59 PM

It depends on how you drive. Are you launching the car? Stressing the clutch with "power shifting"? Or just being really gingerly with the clutch.

My e34 535i has a Tilton OT-II pressure plate with 3 metallic discs(Quarter Master) and a Tilton Hydraulic release bearing.
The pedal effort is very light, although because of the friction material, its pretty abrupt, and the engagement distance is short.

I changed from a 6 puck Spec Stg 3, so it wasn't super difficult to get used to, but its definitely not designed to be slipped for long at all.
After my engine is rebuilt I plan to run the current clutch until I wear down the discs, then try out there Dual 6 Puck ceramic discs(7.25" "rally" Quarter Master discs)
with the strongest double gray diaphragm(since 2 disc 7.25" Tilton clutches max out at 840ft/lb torque).

Scottinva · Post by **Scottinva** » Oct 21, 2009 5:45 PM

90e34535i wrote:It depends on how you drive. Are you launching the car? Stressing the clutch with "power shifting"? Or just being really gingerly with the clutch.

My e34 535i has a Tilton OT-II pressure plate with 3 metallic discs(Quarter Master) and a Tilton Hydraulic release bearing.
The pedal effort is very light, although because of the friction material, its pretty abrupt, and the engagement distance is short.

I changed from a 6 puck Spec Stg 3, so it wasn't super difficult to get used to, but its definitely not designed to be slipped for long at all.
After my engine is rebuilt I plan to run the current clutch until I wear down the discs, then try out there Dual 6 Puck ceramic discs(7.25" "rally" Quarter Master discs)
with the strongest double gray diaphragm(since 2 disc 7.25" Tilton clutches max out at 840ft/lb torque).

You must have a ridiculous car, because that's some serious money invested into that clutch.

Brad D. · Post by **Brad D.** » Oct 21, 2009 6:59 PM

After doing a bit of reading about Clutchmasters FX3000, I am a bit concerned about their disclaimer that it is not recommended for Autox or roadracing. That is a bit of an issue as the car sees occasional autox and HPDE duty and I don't want to drop $7-800 on a clutch that will be damaged by that kind of use. Does anyone have any experience or comments about their disclaimer?

Russianblue · Post by **Russianblue** » Oct 22, 2009 11:09 PM

Brad, i ran a clutchmasters FX300. Feel was excellent. That's the same one i completely trashed when i had that crazy incident with my brakes locking up.

i ruined it in less than 10 minutes. before that, it drove better than stock. EASY pedal, great modulation.

i liked it enough to where i ordered another one. this time i got the 535 flywheel and welded on the M20 ring gear so i could use the 240mm CM stage III. the guys at CM are very cool if you give em a call. i think this new combo should be good for mid 400's torque.

here are some pics of my last CM disk after 'the incident'!!

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showpost.p ... stcount=31

marc79euro645 · Post by **marc79euro645** » Nov 02, 2009 9:40 PM

I've just gotten my newly rebuilt m106 running with clutchmasters fx400 ceramic puck clutch,I'm very happy with it so far.
I previously tried m5,slipped bad
spec stage3plus broke strap on pressure plate after 2 weeks of babying it to break it in,todd @ tcd sent me a uuc/clutchmaster organic.
pressure plate was light pressure but it slipped in 3rd with high boost
clutchmasters upgraded my organic to a ceramic,
pressure plate feels the same ,light & no chatter engaging
so far no slip @ 22psi,just the rear tires melting sideways under hard acceleration.
I love it

cvillebimmer · Post by **cvillebimmer** » Nov 02, 2009 9:54 PM

22psi

Tell us more!

Russianblue · Post by **Russianblue** » Nov 02, 2009 10:06 PM

that's good to know about that FX400...that it doesn't chatter a whole lot. i went through a lot of trouble to upgrade to a 240mm setup so i wouldn't need to step up to a ceramic puck clutch. and you are basically saying it's smooth! heheh! maybe i just should have tried it!

marc79euro645 · Post by **marc79euro645** » Nov 02, 2009 11:06 PM

the disk has heavy springs to cushion take off.
I admit 22# has been a long and painful journey . I've went through 6 headgaskets in 6 months until I resolved my timing
issues. & this is the 3rd build of m102/m106 last failure was broken rocker & camshaft snapped in three pieces.
I'm still learning the hard way

Brad D. · Post by **Brad D.** » Nov 03, 2009 12:40 AM

That's really interesting to hear that the FX400 is very streetable, given that it's a puck style clutch. I don't see it listed in the application guide though. Is it available for custom order?

marc79euro645 · Post by **marc79euro645** » Nov 03, 2009 4:18 PM

Lonnie at clutchmasters had it ready to ship.
nice guy to do business with.

kipwinger · Post by **kipwinger** » Nov 03, 2009 6:15 PM

Talked to the guys at clutchmasters earlier today and the sub $600 price point for the stage 4 (FX400) sounds like a good deal.

MyE28.com

MyE28.com

Turbo Clutch Discussion - Update 12/10/2009

clutchmasters fx400