Interested in a car in IL (have questions about rust)

[BMWgiant]

To the rest of the forum:
Please ignore the shit storm that took place in the previous 5 posts, and please help me answer my current questions.

1.) Has anybody here used the POR-15 product that he will be providing. How good is the stuff? Is there anything I should know about the stuff. Can it prevent the rust issue from worsening/spreading for the most part? Will continual use of the product solve the rust problem? Again, I know NOTHING about rust and would like all the information that can be provided..

2.) How much (on average) do body shops charge for rust issues like the ones seen in the photos? Am I looking at a few $hundred or $thousands in repairs?

3.) This may be a stupid question, but since I know nothing about rust, I feel like it should be asked.. Since I am in Florida, with no snow, no salted roads, etc., if I treat the rust properly, can it be completely stopped without taking it to a repair shop? Or is rust a cancer that is untreatable without a specialist?

[Mark 88/M5 Houston]

1. POR-15 (in my opinion) is one of the best available (retail) products there is to use in this situation.

2. Google is your friend. >> check their web site for instructions and explanations on their products.

3. If you are this concerned by the rust on this car. DON"T BUY IT, or any other car that has lived north of the Mason-Dixon line.

[BMWgiant]

Thanks Mark. I am concerned but not sure how concerned I am until I know more about how bad this rust is..

New question:
From the pictures and the statements of the owner, is the rust simply "corrosion" and nothing to worry about as he stated? Or do the pictures show a more significant problem? If it is just corrosion, I am not very worried and will treat it to the best of my capabilities and maybe even get it professionally repaired in the future. Since I know nothing about rust, I don't know how bad it actually is by the pictures. So any information that can be obtained from the pictures by somebody with experience with rust would be great.

Thanks.

[Sombraero]

Wow!! Some of the stuff on this site just blows me away. I don't get why someone, Rlomba, would take their to time to be such a douche. Must be one of his life goals or something, because clearly its something he works hard at. Your questions seam totally reasonable to me. If someone can't answer a question, which he didn't, whats the purpose of posting?

[mooseheadm5]

BMWGiant,
Don't buy a car with rust issues if you want to keep it for a long time. EVER.
That said, POR-15 is great stuff. It can virtually stop rust, but it is like black paint. It will be visible wherever you put it. It can clog drain holes if applied improperly.
If you want a nice car, don't buy this one. If you want a cheap car, go for it, but any Chicago car is going to have rust, and "not too rusty" is a purely subjective statement. It may not be rusty for a Chi-town car, but it is likely more rust than you have ever seen in your life. Rust destroys cars, and reparing it properly on a modern car is expensive and time consuming. I seriously suggest you look elsewhere.

[Mark 88/M5 Houston]

Any time you have rust in a "folded" panel area (door bottoms or edges, trunk or hood lip) it is hard to kill and rust never sleeps.
Flat panel rust/corrosion is easier to address but generally will show unless professionally repaired and then it still depends on the shop.
All of the repaired the areas will need to be painted, color and tint matching the paint is another art that is best handled by professionals in my opinion.

From what I saw in the pictures, it looks like a "typical" northern car and I would be looking for a car from somewhere other than the rust belt.

Did I mention that I absolutely hate rust and body work is a close second.

[BMWgiant]

BMWGiant,
Don't buy a car with rust issues if you want to keep it for a long time. EVER.
That said, POR-15 is great stuff. It can virtually stop rust, but it is like black paint. It will be visible wherever you put it. It can clog drain holes if applied improperly.
If you want a nice car, don't buy this one. If you want a cheap car, go for it, but any Chicago car is going to have rust, and "not too rusty" is a purely subjective statement. It may not be rusty for a Chi-town car, but it is likely more rust than you have ever seen in your life. Rust destroys cars, and reparing it properly on a modern car is expensive and time consuming. I seriously suggest you look elsewhere.

This is great advice and I know it is. I probably should run, but I really want this car for some reason. I can't explain it since I am not a huge fan of e32s. The rust does seem very minor (to my knowledge and his description), but I'm sure it will be more rust than I've ever had to deal with. I don't mind if the rust spots are visible but covered up (like your description of black paint), as long as it won't get worse under the paint. After reading the POR-15 website, it does seem like a miracle cure for cancer. Sure it'll leave a scar, but if the cancer is stopped, then the car shall live.. It doesn't look as though the rust is in any spots that I would need to worry about clogging drain holes, so I don't think that would be an issue. I am going to email the seller and ask about underneath the car, but overall he seems honest and I think if there were further issues underneath, he would have shared them with me.. His email are very long and thorough which I appreciate a lot, not to mention the good word from members on this board about the seller.

[BMWgiant]

Any time you have rust in a "folded" panel area (door bottoms or edges, trunk or hood lip) it is hard to kill and rust never sleeps.
Flat panel rust/corrosion is easier to address but generally will show unless professionally repaired and then it still depends on the shop.
All of the repaired the areas will need to be painted, color and tint matching the paint is another art that is best handled by professionals in my opinion.

From what I saw in the pictures, it looks like a "typical" northern car and I would be looking for a car from somewhere other than the rust belt.

Did I mention that I absolutely hate rust and body work is a close second.

Thanks for the advice.. I am beginning to get some sense knocked into me and reconsider a bit.. I'm still tempted though.. I'm just going to keep looking for something until I return to the US. I still have at least 2 weeks before I can do anything stupid.

[e281985]

When I bought my e28, the doors were rusted out in the bottoms just like that. I decided it was silly to fix that rust so I found a alpine white parts car and I will be replacing the rusted doors with rust free ones. As for the rest of the rust, I just received my POR-15 and I plan to apply it this week, so if you want, I will send you before and after pictures. As for being able to be seen everywhere, you can get it a variety of colors and... it HAS to be painted over or it will get discolored and not last as long. So, you could apply it (i got it clear) then paint it the silver of the car. good luck

[rlomba8204]

Chill the fuck out man.. Who are you to tell me how I comprehended your statement? You stated that the procedure by the previous owner will slow the progress of rust.. That is obvious, but the pictures show otherwise.. Since it is only a year since he used that procedure.. If you read what I posted he said, he wants to tackle the rust issue with a NEW procedure, one that he won't be doing himself but will be passing on to the new owner with the proper materials.. From the way he speaks of it, it sounds as though this could solve the rust issue.. It is not the same procedure that he did before, therefore your statement become irrelevant in that sense.. So I went forth and asked further questions after your sole response. I understood what you said, you don't have to repeat yourself.

You also don't need to answer any of my questions. You turn all of my posts into a shit storm. I am actually going to ask you to not answer any more of my questions in the future because you are a complete dick every time you do. You provide great information, but you are not the sole bearer of information and I don't need you to solve all my issues. If I ask further questions, it is because I seek further answers. Your continuous belittling will not answer those questions, they will just piss me off. So please, if you can't answer my question without attempting to insult or belittle me after I seek further information from your own, don't answer them at all..

BMWgiant-
What you don't seem to grasp is that you ask the same question, or different variations thereof, until you get the same answer repeated over and over. For example, look at your third question in your post at 5:03pm (22:03): "This may be a stupid question . . . . Or is rust a cancer that is untreatable without a specialist?" Then go back and read what I wrote and what others have written: you can't fully treat rust without professional remediation, which in this case means a competent body shop.

I originally responded here with a sincere desire to steer you in the right direction. Where I come from, it is insulting to ask people their opinion, get it, and then ask the same question again.

What was the thrust of my original advice to you? It was this:

"It's a $3800 car with 150k miles on it. If you did nothing to further arrest the rust, it would likely take several more years for it to become really bad. At that point, the car is close to 20 years old and has 200k miles on it, or thereabouts. So the question is what do you want from the car? Do you want to do another 100k miles without rust issues? If so, you'll need a competent bodyshop to properly remediate the issue. If, however, you are looking for a nice car to drive for the next 3 or 4 years, what the seller has done is probably enough to slow the spread of the rust so that it is a non-issue."

My advice was basically along the same lines and consistent with the advice that Mark and moosehead gave you. Are you now satisfied? The amazing thing is that it seems to have made some sort of dent but still you persist. So then go ahead and buy it and don't worry about what people here say.

With respect to arguing that I didn't answer your precise question, you're only highlighting that you don't have the experience with cars to know any better. You think you're asking a different question, but those of us who have been around the proverbial block know that all of these various treatments are basically just different band-aids that put off the inevitable day of expensive reckoning at a bodyshop. You could say I am being harsh for not fully explaining everything to you but I explained more than many people would, and I gave you the bottom line, in terms of what you would have to do to fully deal with the issue. Do you understand now?

If you think I am being a dick, well that's fine. I don't really care. But at the same time don't ask questions, have people take the time to answer them and then ask the same question, or some variation thereof, again. If you haven't noticed the theme yet with respect to the advice being given here, it is this: Rust is a pain in the ass with which to deal, and it can only be truly fixed by a professional. Everything else is a band-aid that buys you time, but that's probably OK if that is what you want because, as I said originally, this car is no spring chicken and why would you go through the time and considerable expense repairing it?

As far as my harsh jokes go with the drugs, all I'll say is that unfortunately I've known my share of potheads, and they share in common a characteristic "density" where you need to tell them the same thing numerous times before it penetrates the haze that passes for their mind. Your responses strike me in the same way. If there is a pissed off tone to my post, that's where it originates -- an anger at seeing intelligent people f#ck up their brains with drugs. Again, I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but it is what it is.

[BMWgiant]

When I bought my e28, the doors were rusted out in the bottoms just like that. I decided it was silly to fix that rust so I found a alpine white parts car and I will be replacing the rusted doors with rust free ones. As for the rest of the rust, I just received my POR-15 and I plan to apply it this week, so if you want, I will send you before and after pictures. As for being able to be seen everywhere, you can get it a variety of colors and... it HAS to be painted over or it will get discolored and not last as long. So, you could apply it (i got it clear) then paint it the silver of the car. good luck

Thanks. Those pictures would be great. I'm sure that the board would appreciate a write-up as well. It could be used in the future. As far as paint goes, the owner has matching paint and clear coat to be applied after treatment. If he doesn't sell the car, he's just going to repair it himself and give it to his kid in college. So he already has all that is needed for the repair, which benefits me a lot. I'd like to see this product in action before I consider a purchase.. I look forward to seeing your pictures!

rlomba8204,

I am not even going to waste my time reading that post. If you have anything to say to me, say it in a PM. Everything else I'm going to disregard.

[mooseheadm5]

[/pissing match]

OK, BMWgiant- spending time thinking about a car which is thousands of miles away and has an unknown amount of rust is foolish. It will cost more than the value of the car to take care of this problem properly. You say you are not worried about unseen rust issues, but I have to tell you, the unseen stuff is usually the most prolific and dangerous. These cars rust from the bottom up. What you see is likely the least of your worries. Don't think that the underside of that car doesn't look like hell. Every nut and bolt on that thing is probably rusted tight. I can tell by looking at the muffler hanger that the car is pretty much a rustbucket, or at least an expensive headache. I don't care what your problems with whatsisname are, he has given you plenty of good advice here. Read it (apart from the random insult stuff that may or may not be called for) and pay attention.
To sum up:
Rust=bad=$$$$$$=get it inspected before even wasting one more keystroke or breath talking about it if you are serious about the car.

If you really want an E32, there is that one I posted in this thread that is local that I'd be happy to look over for you on a lift.

[wkohler]

Here's my 03/90 when I bought it sporting the same wheels.

You are pure evil. That's all there is to it. You have no idea how badly I want your E32. Well, a little less since you drove it in winter, but still!

[rlomba8204]

Wow!! Some of the stuff on this site just blows me away. I don't get why someone, Rlomba, would take their to time to be such a douche. Must be one of his life goals or something, because clearly its something he works hard at. Your questions seam totally reasonable to me. If someone can't answer a question, which he didn't, whats the purpose of posting?

I haven't seen your ID here before, so I am going to guess that you are new, or at least relatively new. I can see how you would think along the lines of the above, given that you don't have all the background here, which substantially pre-dates this exchange. What I will say is that there is a reason that I am being harsh, or a douche in your words -- sometimes you need to be harsh with people to shake some sense into them, and I am not talking about cars. That, and of course there is the fact that, as my wife often reminds me, I don't exactly have a soft and fuzzy personality.

[BMWgiant]

Wow!! Some of the stuff on this site just blows me away. I don't get why someone, Rlomba, would take their to time to be such a douche. Must be one of his life goals or something, because clearly its something he works hard at. Your questions seam totally reasonable to me. If someone can't answer a question, which he didn't, whats the purpose of posting?

I haven't seen your ID here before, so I am going to guess that you are new, or at least relatively new. I can see how you would think along the lines of the above, given that you don't have all the background here, which substantially pre-dates this exchange. What I will say is that there is a reason that I am being harsh, or a douche in your words -- sometimes you need to be harsh with people to shake some sense into them, and I am not talking about cars. That, and of course there is the fact that, as my wife often reminds me, I don't exactly have a soft and fuzzy personality.

Please stop posting in my threads. I don't need your bullshit. Every thread I make doesn't need to be ruined by you.

[Patrick McHugh]

Eric sent me some more info to share with you. Enjoy.



The first thing that you should understand is my philosophy as a seller. In my many out-of-town purchases of used BMWs, I have been fortunate that sellers have accurately represented the condition of vehicles. I will do my best to provide the same full disclosure to others. I really don't want to waste your time or mine.

Next, a quick note on my credentials as a BMW enthusiast: my family and I have owned 28 BMWs over the past 30 years. We also have owned at the same time four of the 104 1990 735i 5-speeds that were imported, so I have a very good basis of comparison for the condition of this specific vehicle. We currently have 13 BMWs in the fleet -- of which my own account for six. I do most of the work on too many of the cars in the family. I am serious enough that I have a work lift in my garage. The size of the fleet is really the reason for our sale of "Bertha": even with five drivers, we can probably do fine with one fewer BMW.

If you are familiar with the rust that typically emerges on the door bottoms of E32s, E34s, and even E36s, then you will understand the rust issue that Bertha has. I first addressed the issue last summer: I cleaned up the spots of rust, I used a rust arrestor (in retrospect, not the ideal one), and I simply brush-painted the few rust spots with some Rustoleum silver paint (which explains the slight paint-color mismatch that is evident in the pictures that were taken last summer). I also replaced all four door-bottom moldings. Now, one year later, it is clear to me that I should have used POR-15 to arrest the rust. I have obtained that product, and I also have obtained the correct factory-color spray paint to be applied. From your perspective, the good news is that you will be able to see the location and extent of each of the spots where rust is emerging, from the updated pictures now also available.

If you are looking for an absolutely pristine, no-rust 735i 5-speed, then Bertha isn't your car (and frankly, you probably shouldn't be considering almost any E32 or E34, given that most of them have this same emerging-rust problem). We still have a 1990 E34 535i (with only 80K miles). Even that vehicle is developing the same rust at the bottom of the doors. If Bertha had no rust at all, then my asking price would be $6-7K, given its rarity and its excellent mechanical condition.

You may be wondering about the vehicle's accident history. The only accident of which I am aware is that I was told by the original owner that one of the right-side doors was repainted following a very minor accident. At this point, it is not at all even clear which door has been repainted. No accidents have occurred during our many years of ownership. The body overall is very presentable, and the rust can be arrested with a bit of effort. The only ding is in the roof, as you should have seen from the pictures.

The interior is really excellent -- actually the best of any of our 735i cars, at the time of their sale. The A/C blows cold, and the overall HVAC system works fine.

The clutch was replaced at about 75K -- shortly before we purchased the car. It seems fine now. Based on our family history, it should last about 120K -- so it should be good until 190K. The gearbox shifts very well -- Red Line is a wonderful product.

The only problem that we have had with two of our four '90 735i 5-speeds is a modest warpage of the cylinder head that causes the cylinder head gasket to leak -- which then causes cumbustion gasses to over-pressurize the coolant system, and eventually can cause engine oil to leak into the engine oil. Bertha had both of these problems, which prompted us to do the engine work at about 146K. The cylinder head was milled by about .010", we used a new head gasket that was 0.3mm thicker than the stock gasket, and everything has been fine ever since (12K miles). Bertha's head warpage caused the head to "lift" back at the #5 and #6 spark plugs, whereas another 735i that we owned warped such that the middle of the head (near the #3 and #4 spark plugs). The key to avoid a repeat performance is to ensure that the cooling system is all good, so that the engine doesn't overheat. Many of these engines run to 300K without any "bottom end" work. When we had Bertha's cylinder head off, we were amazed at the fact that the cylinder walls had no scoring and absolutely no ridge.

The only issue that I believe currently exists is that the front shocks should be replaced. You could certainly drive it home without a problem -- it will just "float" a bit more than it should. The original shocks were all replaced at about 75K, again shortly before our purchase. Unfortunately, the originals were replaced with OEM shocks rather than my own standard of Bilstein HDs -- so they are ready to replace again.

The wheels on the vehicle are OEM wheels from the 735i of this vintage, with Michelin snow tires. I do have an extra set of 15x7 Borbet 5-spoke wheels that would be available, although the tires that are on them are very old and worn. I would be willing to include those wheels and tires at the $3800 asking price, but that's the extent of my flexibility on price. If I don't sell Bertha, I will simply send it back to college again next year with the oldest of our three sons (after properly arresting the rust, spray painting those spots with the matching spray paint that I have already purchased for the car, and replacing the front shocks).

In the additional pictures, you will see that the vehicle is currently equipped with a Blaupunkt Hamburg MP 57, which provides iPod full connectivity (audio and power) and Bluetooth wireless connectivity for a cell phone. I will be swapping that Blaupunkt unit with the OEM AM/FM/Cassette from our 535i, prior to the sale. I would be willing to leave the Blaupunkt unit in Bertha for the $200 cost of the unit.

Here is the link to the additional pictures:

http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm17 ... 0Part%202/

Please call me to discuss any of these pictures or to ask me any other questions.

[BMWgiant]

Thanks Patrick.. He actually sent me that in an email as well..

[Adam W in MN]

Would be interesting to follow the progress of this car and see how well POR-15 can prevent the rust from expanding. On my previous car, E34 M30b35 5spd Touring that Tammer in Philly now owns, it was a CA car with zero rust at the bottoms of the doors (o.k., one rear door had a flake of paint off and surface rust just starting, but nothing crunchy). I POR-15'd the bottoms of all four doors, and replaced the moldings with new ones from the dealer. That SHOULD provide adequate protection against the elements and prevent rust from ever taking hold. But I'll be curious to hear how it goes under Tammer's ownership. Philly's salt-encrusted roads are far more tame than here in the midwest in January.

The reason this starts as far as I can see, and what I've been told by E34 experts, is those damn rubber moldings crimp on the bottoms of the doors hard enough that they routinely crack the paint or gouge it enough to go through to the metal. AND since they are great at getting clogged with debris particularly in the winter, they trap salt, water, and goo which your door bottoms (now naked of paint including primer where the rubber strips gouged through) now sit in and fester and rust. Wonderful design.

POR-15 hardens to the strength of a granite countertop (or so it seems, ever try to get it off something you treated or even your hands?) so hopefully the rubber moldings can't gouge through POR-15.

[c_spargo]

FYI - those ARE the original wheels for that car.

You're right, I misspoke. We sold so many of hte 5-speeds in that car and put so many cross-spoke wheels on them my memory thought that's how they came. They were only standard that year on the 750iL and the 535i.

Are you your E32's original owner? Do you have the window sticker? I'm curious how much extra you were charged for the "individual" red paint. I remember it varying from free, to $700, to $1,200 in some cases. Just curious.

No, I'm not, and I don't. It does have the "Sonderlack" sticker, so somebody paid for it.

I'm having the same issues with door rust. My only concern with POR15 is that it doesn't do anything to STOP rust - it only seals it very well. If you don't get it clean, it will still continue to rust underneath the POR15, until there's nothing but POR15 left.

Where am I going to find rust free Cinnibar E32 doors?

[c_spargo]

This is great advice and I know it is. I probably should run, but I really want this car for some reason. I can't explain it since I am not a huge fan of e32s.

Heh. Happened to me too. I'm in love!

Major issues to worry about : HVAC. Make sure it works. If you have to pull the whole box out, you'll probably rather stick needles in your eye. 10 server motors, 10 flaps, 8 temperature sensors, you get the idea. The only documentation reference is a scanned PDF in german. My heater valves stuck open, so I was getting full heat ALL the time on the left side, and I have a fresh-air/heat valve stuck somewhere, because I can't fully chill the driver side. Oh, and mine's R12.

Looks like this one good on that front. woowoo!

I had to replace the steering box on mine as well. I got lucky and found a VERY inexpensive reman privately, but you'll spend money there.

[c_spargo]

FYI - those ARE the original wheels for that car.

You're right, I misspoke. We sold so many of hte 5-speeds in that car and put so many cross-spoke wheels on them my memory thought that's how they came.

I had the same idea. Wow! I love this thread! Heh. I'm such a goober.