MyE28.com

1) I assume crashing for the same reason I insure my cars -- I wan't to have some protection in the event something out of the ordinary happens. I understand that there can potentially be a tradeoff between damage resistance when hit vs ability to not get hit. What I am saying is that the "avoiding a crash" benefits an E30 gives you over say, a VW, are next to nil, but the "damage resistance" benefits a modern German car give you over a 1982 design are _significant_.

2) Given how hardcore libertarian I am (and which you must have surely picked up on given our previous arguments), you can't honestly think I beleive in "absolute safety", or that it would be desirous were it possible.

My wife used to ride in my M5 all the time. I've never had my 1 year old son in it, however. Not because I think it's going to spontaneously combust, but because we have considerably better choices available to us when the 3 of us want to go somewhere. I've thought of what it might do to my M5 to put a car seat in back and have not ruled it out.

3) Regarding Formula 1 cars: I'm well aware of the vehicle dynamics improvements of F1 cars over the 60s. However, the cars are NOT easier to control today than they once were. They certainly attain higher speeds and cornering loads, but in the olden days you had tall, thin tires with progressive breakaway. Aerodynamics didn't dictate that you had to maintain perfect in-air-yaw, rideheight, and pitch of the car to get the aero surfaces working (and if you get out of the "zone", your grip falls off abruptly).

I mean, I don't have anything objective to suggest that the cars are easier to keep out of the walls than they used to be, but the FIA sure isn't relying on that mechanism. We've got carbon fiber helmets, the HANS device, ubiqoutous tire walls, safety tubs, fuel bladders, wheel chains, etc, etc, etc.

The safety technology in these cars is utterly amazing, and the fact that Kubica can lawn-dart his coffin into a wall at 180mph and not only live, but continue his racing career is a testament to the safety engineering of these cars. Clearly when the car goes airborne and the driver becomes a passenger, it is NOT its improved manueverability that keeps the accident from being an instant fatality.

Anyway, the kernel of your message is that "please don't assume that armouring up in an SUV full of airbags is a good safety bet", a message I agree with.

However, it's simply poor advice to suggest that a nearly 30 year old BMW is going to have any safety advantages over a newer design. It's also dishonest to suggest that the "nimbleness" of an E30 puts it in any sense ahead of more modern BMWs.

Finally, it's a bit absolutist to put all your eggs in the "just don't get hit" basket. A logical extension of the "manuverability" argument is that women and babies should ride around on 250cc sport bikes, and be trained to do wheelies, stoppies, low-sides, and all kinds of other stunt maneuvers.

Reality dictates that you need to balance structural safety features, sufficient vehicle dynamics, good driver training, and cost. You appeared to be discounting structural safety completely and banking on driver training and dynamics. For someone with as much experience as an instructor as you have, I can't imagine that you are seriously putting complete faith into training and relying on humans to be perfect operators.

In a list that already has the E34 in it, and the E36, why would you suggest the E30? It doesn't have any advantages over the other two models. It's smaller, it has less structural safety, and it has no reaslitic maneuverability advantages.

Any SAABs or Volvos recommended? Is there a good reason why they are, ahem, inexpensive (having never driven one or known anyone that has had either)?

Of the cars on your list, I'd do the E34, or possibly one of the VW's. I am of the opinion Audi's break, SAAB's somewhat less so, but are a nightmare to work on. Volvo wouldn't seem to be a bad choice, but I was looking at them seriously back in '05 and ended up with an E39. It was much cleaner and nicer for the money, the bodys seemed to hold up better, the interiors much better and felt just as quick or quicker than the 850 turbo. I think the early ones are just about within your budget. And your wife will like it

That's not to say it's perfect, and they have some quirks that just drive me crazy, but they're a lot of car for the money.

My wife and I just picked up an e34 535i 5spd for some of the reasons listed above. I was a little surprised to find it a little more difficult to get our little girl into and out of her seat compared to our WRX wagon. The distance between the seat cushion and the roof is less, presumable from the sunroof and the battery being under the rear seat. Not a big problem, just have to use a different technique.
Good luck

Matt wrote: 3) Regarding Formula 1 cars: I'm well aware of the vehicle dynamics improvements of F1 cars over the 60s. However, the cars are NOT easier to control today than they once were. They certainly attain higher speeds and cornering loads, but in the olden days you had tall, thin tires with progressive breakaway. Aerodynamics didn't dictate that you had to maintain perfect in-air-yaw, rideheight, and pitch of the car to get the aero surfaces working (and if you get out of the "zone", your grip falls off abruptly).

while you have said many, many stupid things I must stop you here on this one.

NOT EASIER TO CONTROL? So, what Im gathering is you are retarded. Or clueless. Formula one cars have active traction control to such a high degree that, when the car gets squirrly (as they do), you hit the gas. thats right, to get out of a slide, you just hit the pedal and the car takes care of ALL the throttle modulation on EACH WHEEL INDEPENDENTLY!

there was a speed channel expo they did a while ago where jeff gordon and some F! driver swwapped cars. the F1 driver matched one pole time jeff set once, and jeff destroyed every single record the F1 driver ever set at the track. the F1 driver LOCKED UP THE WHEELS coming into turns, because he was used to his car taking care of everything.

I dont have time to debate any more, as im off to lunch. suffice to say that if you or your wife slams into me in one of those "safe" boats you drive because you werent paying attention, as you didnt need to since you dont seem to put attention as a priority, safety features wont help you as windwhields dont stop bullets.

Soco wrote:

Matt wrote: 3) Regarding Formula 1 cars: I'm well aware of the vehicle dynamics improvements of F1 cars over the 60s. However, the cars are NOT easier to control today than they once were. They certainly attain higher speeds and cornering loads, but in the olden days you had tall, thin tires with progressive breakaway. Aerodynamics didn't dictate that you had to maintain perfect in-air-yaw, rideheight, and pitch of the car to get the aero surfaces working (and if you get out of the "zone", your grip falls off abruptly).

while you have said many, many stupid things I must stop you here on this one.

Oh? Like what else? By what authority or argument are you making pronouncements of my stupidity?

NOT EASIER TO CONTROL? So, what Im gathering is you are retarded. Or clueless. Formula one cars have active traction control to such a high degree that, when the car gets squirrly (as they do), you hit the gas. thats right, to get out of a slide, you just hit the pedal and the car takes care of ALL the throttle modulation on EACH WHEEL INDEPENDENTLY!

This is delicious. You tell me that I am stupid and I don't know what I am talking about.

FACT: traction control of any kind if banned in Formula 1 for the 2008 season

there was a speed channel expo they did a while ago where jeff gordon and some F! driver swwapped cars. the F1 driver matched one pole time jeff set once, and jeff destroyed every single record the F1 driver ever set at the track. the F1 driver LOCKED UP THE WHEELS coming into turns, because he was used to his car taking care of everything.

FACT: F1 cars do not have ABS
FACT: F1 cars have such excessive downforce that their braking grip is _unreal_ compared to any other class of vehicle
FACT: in this same "tradin paint" episode that you refer to, when the NASCAR driver tried to brake for a turn he way undershot the corner and turned into the grass.

I dont have time to debate any more, as im off to lunch.

Based on the completely inaccurate shit you just spewed, the world is better off for your having left to go eat if it means you stop posting.

suffice to say that if you or your wife slams into me in one of those "safe" boats you drive because you werent paying

My wife has attended a BMW CCA school and drives a german station wagon. One that is lighter than 100% of new BMWs being sold on in the US market.

safety features wont help you as windwhields dont stop bullets.

I think you just threatened to shoot my wife.

Do you have any idea what kind of hot water you're playing with?

Soco wrote: while you have said many, many stupid things I must stop you here on this one.

NOT EASIER TO CONTROL? So, what Im gathering is you are retarded. Or clueless. Formula one cars have active traction control to such a high degree that, when the car gets squirrly (as they do), you hit the gas. thats right, to get out of a slide, you just hit the pedal and the car takes care of ALL the throttle modulation on EACH WHEEL INDEPENDENTLY!

TC banned in '08. Using the throttle to control slides and stop spins is basic performance driving technique, and it doesn't require traction control. If you don't know this, you should get to a car control clinic.

there was a speed channel expo they did a while ago where jeff gordon and some F! driver swwapped cars. the F1 driver matched one pole time jeff set once, and jeff destroyed every single record the F1 driver ever set at the track. the F1 driver LOCKED UP THE WHEELS coming into turns, because he was used to his car taking care of everything.

Jeff Gordon and Juan Pablo Montoya. Gordon got within about 2 sec. of JPM's time, he didn't beat it. While that does show JG is talented, 2 seconds is an eternity in pro racing. Gordon never locked up the F1 car because he never used its full braking potential. JPM, on the other hand, locked up the NASTYCAR because he was unused to a car that weighs 3400 lbs with a high center of gravity and relatively low aero grip. Note that JPM has done consistently well since moving to NASCAR, usually placing between ~8th and 20th place out of the 43-car fields, in Gibbs racing cars that are not fast enough to be top-tier on most tracks. He's doing about as well as anyone would in those cars. Gordon has yet to be offered an F1 ride.

-tammer

After a little online searching and discussion, my wife uttered the word 'Touring'. She likes the e34 and the Passat, possibly the Jetta. Her main concern is the old 1995 car (e34) versus the seemingly newer and more modern 2000 (Passat, Jetta).

very well, as I have not read the rules on the 08 F1 season I guess I will have to say that TC is in fact banned. Does that preclude it from having been used in the past 40 years previous to this?

Throttle is used to control oversteer. fact. 800-1000 horsepower in a car that weighs 1200-1500 pounds does not lend itself to a very controllable oversteer, ESPECIALLY at the speeds they run at.

I never said juan pablo montoya was a bad driver. My only claim was that, given two good drivers, one in a nascar car and one in a F1 car, the nascar driver preformed better in total, due to going from a car that was HARDER to control to a car that was EASIER to control. That was my claim.

I stated that if someone is driving a new, numb, comfortable, safe cage around and they slam into me due to their own lack of awareness and damage my person and property (and perhaps hurt my loved ones) I would be inclined to shoot them in the face. Whether or not I had the means is a different story, as is whether or not I thought better of it and decided not to go to jail. however, a member of my family died, so would the other person, water temperature notwithstanding.

edit, looking up the numbers tammer is completely right., although my underlying point is still correct. this is what I get for relying on a secondhand account...

and if your wife is well trained, cogniscant and drives a light, controllable car then i would say based on my statements that my opinions dont apply to you, as this situation would never arise.

Step away from the keyboard. You've had two chances to demonstrate that you know what you're talking about and it hasn't happened yet. In the mean time you've made a vague threat against me and my family and then (sensibly) backtracked.

Cool off a bit and lets be friends. I don't recall ever having an argument with you before today so I was a bit surprised to see you leading with a condemnation of my intellect follwed up by a baseless threat.

Soco wrote:very well, as I have not read the rules on the 08 F1 season I guess I will have to say that TC is in fact banned. Does that preclude it from having been used in the past 40 years previous to this?

Throttle is used to control oversteer. fact. 800-1000 horsepower in a car that weighs 1200-1500 pounds does not lend itself to a very controllable oversteer, ESPECIALLY at the speeds they run at.

I never said juan pablo montoya was a bad driver. My only claim was that, given two good drivers, one in a nascar car and one in a F1 car, the nascar driver preformed better in total, due to going from a car that was HARDER to control to a car that was EASIER to control. That was my claim.

I stated that if someone is driving a new, numb, comfortable, safe cage around and they slam into me due to their own lack of awareness and damage my person and property (and perhaps hurt my loved ones) I would be inclined to shoot them in the face. Whether or not I had the means is a different story, as is whether or not I thought better of it and decided not to go to jail. however, a member of my family died, so would the other person, water temperature notwithstanding.

edit, looking up the numbers tammer is completely right., although my underlying point is still correct. this is what I get for relying on a secondhand account...

and if your wife is well trained, cogniscant and drives a light, controllable car then i would say based on my statements that my opinions dont apply to you, as this situation would never arise.

TC was banned in 1993, reinstated in 2001, then banned again for the current season.

-tammer

Matt wrote:Step away from the keyboard. You've had two chances to demonstrate that you know what you're talking about and it hasn't happened yet. In the mean time you've made a vague threat against me and my family and then (sensibly) backtracked.

Cool off a bit and lets be friends. I don't recall ever having an argument with you before today so I was a bit surprised to see you leading with a condemnation of my intellect follwed up by a baseless threat.

The fact that you consider what he said a threat is asinine.

You also have a problem with stating your opinion as fact. I disagree with much that you have written, but I wouldn't go as far as to say you're stupid, just a bit misguided (but that, too, is just an opinion). You also tend to read too much into what people write. For instance, Kreiger had to tell you twice that he never said that newer cars aren't more safe than old cars, but you still say he's an idiot for saying that.

By the way, you can't call someone else an idiot or stupid if someone else can't say that to you.

e28s and e30s are safe cars and accident prevention through situational awareness is better than an air bag any day. I look both ways on one way streets and look both ways at intersections (even when I have the right of way). I have been able to avoid many side impact accidents.

tsmall07 wrote:

Matt wrote:Step away from the keyboard. You've had two chances to demonstrate that you know what you're talking about and it hasn't happened yet. In the mean time you've made a vague threat against me and my family and then (sensibly) backtracked.

Cool off a bit and lets be friends. I don't recall ever having an argument with you before today so I was a bit surprised to see you leading with a condemnation of my intellect follwed up by a baseless threat.

The fact that you consider what he said a threat is asinine.

Look, I don't know what this guy's deal with me is, and then he makes a bunch if factually incorrect statements, incorrect assumptions, and then says that if x, y, and z, happen, that he's shooting at me or my wife (depending on which of us is driving, I guess). Out of nowhere.

You also have a problem with stating your opinion as fact.

I appreciate the diagnosis. Where have I stated an opinion in this thread without sufficient evidence to at least warrant investigation into the accuracy of what I have said? In one case I made a statement, was asked for evidence, provided evidence showing that I was incorrect, and corrected my claim.

I don't mind being wrong, and I don't just say shit for the hell of saying it.

I disagree with much that you have written,

Put up or shut up.

but I wouldn't go as far as to say you're stupid

That's nice to hear. That would be going pretty far given any objective measure anyone else has ever made of my intellect.

You also tend to read too much into what people write. For instance, Kreiger had to tell you twice that he never said that newer cars aren't more safe than old cars, but you still say he's an idiot for saying that.

You could very well be right.

Reading CR's post, with the context of die hard E28 and vintage BMW fans in mind, that was certainly the implication. What he never answered (that I could find) was what the point of suggesting an E30 was over an E36 or E34 (or a newer VW). There's a lot of "nostaligic worship" for the E30 and E28 cars here (understandably) but nobody should let that get in the way of reality.

By the way, you can't call someone else an idiot or stupid if someone else can't say that to you.

I think the only time i've used "stupid" or some other intellect challenging statement in this thread has been qualified with a "if you really think that", or after someone has clearly said things that are incorrect.

That said, I didn't say nobody could call me stupid. I just said they need to bring adequate proof. Or at least a coherent argument.

e28s and e30s are safe cars and accident prevention through situational awareness is better than an air bag any day.

Yeah but why choose one or the other when you can have both?

Matt wrote:Reading CR's post, with the context of die hard E28 and vintage BMW fans in mind, that was certainly the implication. What he never answered (that I could find) was what the point of suggesting an E30 was over an E36 or E34 (or a newer VW). There's a lot of "nostaligic worship" for the E30 and E28 cars here (understandably) but nobody should let that get in the way of reality.

I guess you're right. I never did say in so many words: It's condition.

For your $5K, you will get a middling E34 or E36 (or newer VW). For the same money, you can get a very good E30 or E28.

I'd rather have a really nice older car than a crappy new one. But then, I also 'traded' from a 1995 Honda Shadow to a 1978 BMW R100RS ... 8)

I paid EXACTLY $5k for my '90 E32 735i. I will drive this car forever, much to the eternal consternation of Bill Rutger.

Will I put medium sized chunks of cash in this car over time? Yes. Is there ANYTHING else I'd rather be driving, for more or less any reasonable sum of cash? No. This thing does everything I need a car to do perfectly.





And, the proverbial reason for the season...

Ahh, bite me, Chris. You know you stole that S.O.B. and you wouldn't sell it for anything near $5K. And then you clog up the damn thread with Gimondous photos that only belong over in Eye Candy ...

\Sorry - this thread NEEDED some clogging up...

C.R. Krieger wrote:Ahh, bite me, Chris. You know you stole that S.O.B. and you wouldn't sell it for anything near $5K. And then you clog up the damn thread with Gimondous photos that only belong over in Eye Candy ...

Doh! Ok - resized. We got a new digital camera, and I didn't realize just how ginormous those were.....

Also, in the interest of full disclosure, the car will probably need a tranny sooner rather than later (the car is quite hard to put into gear, just doesn't want to fall in when cold at all, and whines a bit in 3rd and 5th). The steering box is SHOT, like, driving an old ford van shot. Plus, it's got pretty serious corrosion on the door bottoms like every other one of these. 210K miles.

E34, E30, Honda. In that order, all 5 speeds. Done deal.

get a subaru, is what i would do. or if you can find a B5 vw passat 2.8 but for $5k it be really surprised.


Id stay away from the 1.8t, and regarding the e36's
the suspension on those is a nightmare, if you bend a control arm, its all one part, and its not cheap, while ive never owned one. The guys here pushed me away from a 325i e36, to buy a e30. regarding the oil,and cooling issues.

happy trails!

In 2004, Cottonwood Arizona, an elderly lady pulled out onto a very busy street not watching where she was going. I couldnt stop and t-boned her new full sized ford with our 19 year old E-30 bmw. I buckled her frame and am pretty sure her car got totalled. I hit her square on and my car looked pretty good with a dented hood and the motor coming off the mounts and fan going into the radiator.

Her insurance company would only settle if I gave up the car. I bought it back from them and then had it re-built. Total re-do was about $6000 but this also included a full re-paint.

Her car was still toast and about twice as heavy as my E-30. My bumper wasnt even dented. Probably just lucky. But I have to live with a salvage title.

Might consider an E-30.

I don't know if I will get my wife into an e30. I think an s5x e30 might be pretty fun for me, though! I seem to be finding quite a few e34s. It is a little harder to find one with a stick, though. There are quite a few Passats in the MY 2000 era (B5 I think), but few with stick in this price range.
There are many e32/e38 out there also. I am finding all sorts of decent 740s out there. I love the body style, but am scared of getting into something I regret (mileage wise). It appears that most people that have them love them though(If anyone here can verify this, please speak up!).
We are in the process of selling the Xterra, so the search will speed up soon. If anyone has any lines on something on the list, please let me know!

Scott