Fed Up - Time for an Economy Car
Did you see the higher percentage of highway mileage both models are achieving?Tucker wrote:Not when you use them as actual cars, instead of neato electric novelties. In the city they make sense, but on the open road forget it. You'd have to drive one for decades to offset the purchase price. They're a cool feelgood stopgap and display of technology, but far from the ultimate solution.
2006 Prius (Auto): http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?a ... details=on
2005 Prius (Auto): http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?a ... details=on
2004 Prius (Auto): http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?a ... details=on
2006 VW Golf TD (Manual)I: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?a ... details=on
2005 VW Golf TDI (Manual): http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?a ... details=on
2004 VW Gold TDI (Manual): http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?a ... details=on
The Civic Hybrid is slightly less in highway mileage.
The diesels certainly look better. But you can't poo-poo the hybrids. They're just as competitive.
Last edited by RobbieR on Feb 28, 2008 9:20 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Not to mention the environmental costs with the way most of the country's electricity is produced. Shifting the pollution to a source we can't see (to make ourselves feel better) accomplishes nothing.Patrick McHugh wrote: I don't agree with the price of electricity, it'll be less, not cheap, but for sure less than gas.
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Patrick McHugh
- Posts: 4163
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006
- Location: Richmond, VA
That's true. We gotta make more nukes!tsmall07 wrote:Not to mention the environmental costs with the way most of the country's electricity is produced. Shifting the pollution to a source we can't see (to make ourselves feel better) accomplishes nothing.Patrick McHugh wrote: I don't agree with the price of electricity, it'll be less, not cheap, but for sure less than gas.
Sorry, I'm kinda "on one". This is long.RobbieR wrote:
The diesels certainly look better. But you can't poo-poo the hybrids. They're just as competitive.
I'm not poo-pooing them, as I said they're cool as a feelgood tech display, but they're not the magical green solution most people defend them as. And I say that as one who works on and is interested in them (a few of our German customers run them for commuting), and I'm pretty heavily on the side of environmental responsibility. With modern clean diesel technology (ie Bluetec, Uren injection, biodiesel blends etc) metallurgy, machining, and advanced injection methods, there's no reason to discount diesel in it's many variations as a modern alternative with the exception of our artificially inflated prices (diesel doesn't cost as much to refine as premium unleaded, gimme a break). The issue is that when you say "diesel" most folks on this side of the pond picture a smoky old 18 wheeler or a clapped out, poorly tuned Mercedes 300D (which shouldn't smoke if properly setup). It's a stigma that simply isn't accurate anymore. And FWIW, I've never seen a VW TDI lose a turbo yet, lots of intake carbon issues if they're only driven in town, but no turbos. And Biodiesel destroys VW injection pumps (as well as voiding the warranty immediately) and late-model MBZ injection hose O-rings. Most of the half-assed Biodiesel/veggie conversions on old MBZ's around here (and that's most of them) are smoking heaps because everyone gets blinded by the "green fuel" thing and forgets that the car still requires maintenance, so they're still running along as beat up out-of-tune smoky diesels. Even McDonald's leftover bacon oil smokes when burned. Duh. Look, there's no clear winner to the diesel vs hybrid vs plug-in etc debate for the time being, because everybody is holier-than-thou about their chosen path so it's a moot point. Most armchair experts on such things know nothing of the various systems mechanically, all they see is mileage figures and media hyperbole. There are lots of viable options, they all have their advantages, choose one that fits. Personally, I'll choose small engines with high pressure injection and forced induction like turbodiesels, VW's Twincharger 1.4L or MBZ's new concept DiesOtto. On the other hand, the new Z06 gets 25mpg freeway and qualifies as an LEV. Choose your poison.
Last edited by Tucker on Feb 28, 2008 10:21 PM, edited 3 times in total.
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slave2school
- Posts: 371
- Joined: Aug 23, 2007
- Location: NS, Canada
Bio diesel conversion? Do you mean vegetable oil conversion? The latter is decidedly more problematic.
I had a 99.5 Golf TDI. Had a turbo fail at just over 185,000km's but it had issues before I purchased the car I was unaware of. Varriable vane turbos need to be driven to keep the actuator freed up and apparently a little old lady owned mine. So eventually after 2 years of over boosting the poor little guy to 20psi it started leaking enough oil I replaced it with an improved vnt-17.
Then I got .216's, tranny cooler, retuned, 80% limited slip peloquin shim kit, RSB, new shocks and struts, TIT/boost gauge, played with water injection....hahaha. Yeah I had some fun. When I first got it 0-100km/h was about 14-15s...about 8s or under after mods. Still slow but peppy and fun.
I still got around 6.5L/100 km or less in the winter with 5km to work and 5km home (remember automatic so I lost a large bit of mileage around town). On the highway 5L/100km was not a problem if I kept it to 100km/h-110. This figures are all "modded" figures with 17" tires in the summer and 15" Green Diamond Ultra Trac winter tires.
Here is a short video I made going up a slight uphill grade after I got retuned http://youtube.com/watch?v=M6xSQal2U5M
PS-Go diesel go! Parts are not that expensive, you just need to know where to look. Check out tdiclub.com for lists of vendors etc.
I had a 99.5 Golf TDI. Had a turbo fail at just over 185,000km's but it had issues before I purchased the car I was unaware of. Varriable vane turbos need to be driven to keep the actuator freed up and apparently a little old lady owned mine. So eventually after 2 years of over boosting the poor little guy to 20psi it started leaking enough oil I replaced it with an improved vnt-17.
Then I got .216's, tranny cooler, retuned, 80% limited slip peloquin shim kit, RSB, new shocks and struts, TIT/boost gauge, played with water injection....hahaha. Yeah I had some fun. When I first got it 0-100km/h was about 14-15s...about 8s or under after mods. Still slow but peppy and fun.
I still got around 6.5L/100 km or less in the winter with 5km to work and 5km home (remember automatic so I lost a large bit of mileage around town). On the highway 5L/100km was not a problem if I kept it to 100km/h-110. This figures are all "modded" figures with 17" tires in the summer and 15" Green Diamond Ultra Trac winter tires.
Here is a short video I made going up a slight uphill grade after I got retuned http://youtube.com/watch?v=M6xSQal2U5M
PS-Go diesel go! Parts are not that expensive, you just need to know where to look. Check out tdiclub.com for lists of vendors etc.
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TheE28Ranch
- Posts: 2046
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006
- Location: Marquette, MI
E6 Hybrid
OK, so does anyone know anything about the BMW E6 hybrid? No crap - true story, from tonight, past hour even. Kinda lengthy, but interesting.
So I'm out to a late dinner with my girl, and we get seated right next to a crew of probably 14+ guys at one long table. It looks like they're some sort of club, all with matching jackets, but they're pretty mellow. So 30 minutes or so into dinner my girlfriend mentions how she overhead the hostess speak to some guy about being "with the BMW group" when we entered the place. I look at her, my jaw drops. I ask her to repeat herself. She repeats what she overheard. I fought the temptation to ask her what planet she lives on, why in the HELL did she not mention this earlier. I mean, she knows my complaint that I don't have any car buddies up here on Lake Superior in Marquette, Michigan, much less classic BMW's. I live in a small community of 21,000 or so residents right in town (but there's a college - NMU with 10k or so as well), and most cars from the 80's (and 90's) have rusted away. So, somewhere in the middle of her telling me she can't do anything right by me - I get up and grab a chair, pull it up to the guy sitting at the head of the table and invite myself into conversation with them.
So here's the deal - these guys are all employees of BMW, and they came up here from Detroit to test this E6 hybrid system at the old military base / old airport. The bulk of them seemed to be foreign, and the few I spoke with definitely were. I couldn't get much out of them. I spoke of my enthusiasm for BMW and lack of fellow enthusiasts in the area, and mentioned I own some myself. As for general BMW conversation - it could have been the language / communication barrier, but they basically didn't seem too interested in my enthusiasm. I mentioned M5 and that raised some eyebrows, but all in all, getting them to discuss anything was like pulling friggin' teeth. In their defense, they were eating dinner, and the head of the table fellow said several times how nice it is up here. But I'll bet it makes it a lot nicer when your employer gives you cool cars to drive at testing facilities here in the winter without care of what it does to the vehicle.
So I found out where they are staying, the local Ramada, and drove by. I saw probably 10 bimmers in total, including 328xi's, X3's, 328i's, and a 328iw, all with Manufacturer plates. The main "testing" car, stripped of all badges and anything in an attempt to not give away what it is was, was a Toyota, of all things. I have never seen this body style, a four door compact kinda like a Scion, but I saw where the little "T" badge used to be. The other testing car was a Lincoln MKX, as it was the only other car with testing equipment mounted to the top. Strange. I even snapped a few pics.
Anyway, even a blind squirrel finds a good BMW nut every now and then in the old U.P. of Michigan. So I wonder if there's any press on this E6 hybrid system yet. I haven't read up on the current BMW model systems lately.
So I'm out to a late dinner with my girl, and we get seated right next to a crew of probably 14+ guys at one long table. It looks like they're some sort of club, all with matching jackets, but they're pretty mellow. So 30 minutes or so into dinner my girlfriend mentions how she overhead the hostess speak to some guy about being "with the BMW group" when we entered the place. I look at her, my jaw drops. I ask her to repeat herself. She repeats what she overheard. I fought the temptation to ask her what planet she lives on, why in the HELL did she not mention this earlier. I mean, she knows my complaint that I don't have any car buddies up here on Lake Superior in Marquette, Michigan, much less classic BMW's. I live in a small community of 21,000 or so residents right in town (but there's a college - NMU with 10k or so as well), and most cars from the 80's (and 90's) have rusted away. So, somewhere in the middle of her telling me she can't do anything right by me - I get up and grab a chair, pull it up to the guy sitting at the head of the table and invite myself into conversation with them.
So here's the deal - these guys are all employees of BMW, and they came up here from Detroit to test this E6 hybrid system at the old military base / old airport. The bulk of them seemed to be foreign, and the few I spoke with definitely were. I couldn't get much out of them. I spoke of my enthusiasm for BMW and lack of fellow enthusiasts in the area, and mentioned I own some myself. As for general BMW conversation - it could have been the language / communication barrier, but they basically didn't seem too interested in my enthusiasm. I mentioned M5 and that raised some eyebrows, but all in all, getting them to discuss anything was like pulling friggin' teeth. In their defense, they were eating dinner, and the head of the table fellow said several times how nice it is up here. But I'll bet it makes it a lot nicer when your employer gives you cool cars to drive at testing facilities here in the winter without care of what it does to the vehicle.
So I found out where they are staying, the local Ramada, and drove by. I saw probably 10 bimmers in total, including 328xi's, X3's, 328i's, and a 328iw, all with Manufacturer plates. The main "testing" car, stripped of all badges and anything in an attempt to not give away what it is was, was a Toyota, of all things. I have never seen this body style, a four door compact kinda like a Scion, but I saw where the little "T" badge used to be. The other testing car was a Lincoln MKX, as it was the only other car with testing equipment mounted to the top. Strange. I even snapped a few pics.
Anyway, even a blind squirrel finds a good BMW nut every now and then in the old U.P. of Michigan. So I wonder if there's any press on this E6 hybrid system yet. I haven't read up on the current BMW model systems lately.
Just incase buying a new car isn't in the budget, even though that is what the case seems to be. I thought I'd put my two cents in Anyway. I've seen a a 7.3 powerstroke get 26mpg and a 12 valve cummins get 30mpg. Both got to the basics the focus was on a budget. Under the hood a simple tuner and exhaust upgrade can yield up to 4-5 mpg for less than $600. Tire pressure, areodynamic rearview mirrors, and tonneau cover and add another 1-2 mpg. The most important factor is driving habits. It is possible to get 25+ mpg, you just have to work for it. 
And if you really want to go all out you can just make your own biodiesel.
And if you really want to go all out you can just make your own biodiesel.
I bought a 2008 Honda Fit Sport 5-speed two weeks ago, after spending three weeks of test driving everything in a 4-door hatchback configuration and delivering at least 35 mpg on the highway... Ford, Nissan, Toyota, Mazda, etc. The auto dealers were beginning to hide when they saw me back on the lot. The Nissan Versa was the closest, but the Honda Fit won me over with its build quality and engineering. With less than 1,000 miles on it, my few fill-ups average 39.1 mpg, with one 182 mile trip returning 45.3 mpg! Great little vehicle. My 16 mpg Chevy K1500 is now religated to "beater" service.
FWIW,
-Rod
FWIW,
-Rod
The BMW beats the Prius by 2mpg and it's a gas guzzler?Model BMW 520d SE
Fuel used on test 10.84 gallons (50.3mpg)
Model Toyota Prius T Spirit
Fuel used on test 11.34 gallons (48.1mpg)
Also, European diesel fuel does not have the additives and other emission requirements that the Tier 2 US standards now dictate. I would be curious to know what the results would be using a US fuel source.
FWIW...those Honda Fits (Jazz) are really cool cars as well. And when the Golf TDI Hybrid makes it's way to the US, it should be the one to beat in MPG.
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Bonapartist
- Posts: 422
- Joined: Jun 05, 2006
- Location: California
Honestly and shamefully, I'm fond of the first and second generations of Honda Prelude, as well as the old CRX. All of them offer a nice blend of economy, sportiness, stick-shifti-ness and road feel, despite that they're FWD. Something to consider if your father would rather spend 1500 to 3000 dollars rather than the 12000 to 20000 he'll spend on a new economy car which will likely treat him far less fairly and inspire far fewer smiles.
First generation Toyota MR2's got great mileage and are a HOOT.
First generation Toyota MR2's got great mileage and are a HOOT.
I read a good article about hybrids in a car mag (C&D??) awhile back, the review asked alot of good questions:
1) What happens when the original battery pack goes out, replacements are equal to about 1/3 of the price of a new car.
2) Where do you send the old battery pack when replaced?
Fees?
3) In a serious accident, battery acid burns are a strong possibility as well as having a HAZMAT Team brought in to clean it up. What are the chances of Insurance Co's covering that? and if not, WHO will? .......YOU!
4) Reality is a Hummer is more green than a Prius....
5) Imagine the new used car ad's,
" HYBRID for sale, mint condition, just needs new $8500 battery pack...."
1) What happens when the original battery pack goes out, replacements are equal to about 1/3 of the price of a new car.
2) Where do you send the old battery pack when replaced?
Fees?
3) In a serious accident, battery acid burns are a strong possibility as well as having a HAZMAT Team brought in to clean it up. What are the chances of Insurance Co's covering that? and if not, WHO will? .......YOU!
4) Reality is a Hummer is more green than a Prius....
5) Imagine the new used car ad's,
" HYBRID for sale, mint condition, just needs new $8500 battery pack...."
Diesel is not the answer, now that diesel cars can perform in a pleasing way compared to gasoline cars, the cost of building them has gone up due to the engineering complexity required to make them so good. And the price of diesel has gone up, and it will not go down if the demand keeps rising. The supply will not increase because we have a limited ability to refine diesel, and although new refineries would help this problem in refinery capacity, NIMBY has kept one from being built for decades. Globally, huge quantities of diesel are, and will continue to be, sucked up building out the rest of the planet.
Current hybrids are no better, they offer overhyped benefits and are also very complicated and expensive to build.
Corn ethanol is a pathetic scam of criminal proportion.
Electric cars will be great when someone comes up with a leap in battery technology, and we figure out how to charge all those batteries with our current grid.
The solutions will be found in continued research into viable technologies, and a gradual acceptance of smaller vehicles as we get off of our current behemoth kick. No matter what is fueling them, huge vehicles will always require more of it to push around than little ones.
We can't count on our politicians to save us, most of them will likely remain as short sighted and narrowly focused as ever until the problems go beyond critical. CAFE? Spare me.
Go science!
Current hybrids are no better, they offer overhyped benefits and are also very complicated and expensive to build.
Corn ethanol is a pathetic scam of criminal proportion.
Electric cars will be great when someone comes up with a leap in battery technology, and we figure out how to charge all those batteries with our current grid.
The solutions will be found in continued research into viable technologies, and a gradual acceptance of smaller vehicles as we get off of our current behemoth kick. No matter what is fueling them, huge vehicles will always require more of it to push around than little ones.
We can't count on our politicians to save us, most of them will likely remain as short sighted and narrowly focused as ever until the problems go beyond critical. CAFE? Spare me.
Go science!
1) There are Prius' running around with obver 200,000 miles with the original battery pack. A new battery pack for that particular car lists for around $2,300.BNC wrote:I read a good article about hybrids in a car mag (C&D??) awhile back, the review asked alot of good questions:
1) What happens when the original battery pack goes out, replacements are equal to about 1/3 of the price of a new car.
2) Where do you send the old battery pack when replaced?
Fees?
3) In a serious accident, battery acid burns are a strong possibility as well as having a HAZMAT Team brought in to clean it up. What are the chances of Insurance Co's covering that? and if not, WHO will? .......YOU!
4) Reality is a Hummer is more green than a Prius....
5) Imagine the new used car ad's,
" HYBRID for sale, mint condition, just needs new $8500 battery pack...."
2) The NI-MH batteries used in hybrids are 100% recyclable. Both Honda and Toyota have battery buy-back programs that pay YOU to make sure it's recycled properly.
3) Hybrids have been on the roads for over a decade. I haven't see or heard of any problems with the batteries involved in auto accidents.
4) That's been proven false.
5) See #1 response.
Once VW brings the Golf TDI Hybrid here, it will be THE car to beat in MPG.
Why do americans complain about your petrol prices when your fuel is really cheap compared to what we pay in the UK and I drive 400 - 500 miles per week.
If you want fuel economy get a diesel. Voltwagen units are good but the Mercedes engines are smoother (the pt crusier came with a 2150cc merc diesel in the UK brillant engine). I have no experience of the BMW engines except reports of blown turbo's @60000 miles (hopeless). Hybrids are no more economical in the real world than a good diesel.
Malcolm
If you want fuel economy get a diesel. Voltwagen units are good but the Mercedes engines are smoother (the pt crusier came with a 2150cc merc diesel in the UK brillant engine). I have no experience of the BMW engines except reports of blown turbo's @60000 miles (hopeless). Hybrids are no more economical in the real world than a good diesel.
Malcolm
Because prices are climbing -- something like 25% higher than they were last year, somewhat due to the falling value of the dollar -- and because we like bitching about stuff.bm0p700f wrote:Why do americans complain about your petrol prices when your fuel is really cheap compared to what we pay in the UK ...