Bad transaction with board member M635CSi

[Shawn D.]

I propose one of the admins. move this thread to the feedback section.

I don't know about y'all, but there is enough information here for me to make a decision on who I would prefer to do business with.

Stop saying that, please. We're not omnipotent, and cannot move a single post from one thread to another. We can move an entire thread from one forum to another, but we do not have a feedback forum.

If Karl would like to post something in the feedback thread, he may do so at his discretion.

Jeremy

Jeremy:
Maybe I am misunderstanding you, (I am not the best when it comes to computers), but don't we have a feedback thread in the For Sale forum? I think Frank is requesting that this thread be moved to the For Sale forum, but maybe I am missing something. To the extent it is possible to move it, I agree with him.

TIA.

Correct, we have a Buyer/Seller Feedback thread in the For Sale / Wanted forum. Us Beamters can move this entire thread to the For Sale / Wanted forum, but we cannot tack it (or any part of it) onto (or into) the Buyer/Seller Feedback thread. It would stay as an individual thread in the For Sale / Wanted forum. One could easily make a post in the Buyer/Seller Feedback thread with a link to this thread.

[tsmall07]

I really don't think this situation warrants a separate thread in the for sale/wanted section. He'll post it in the feedback thread if he wants to. (its his decision, not everyone else's)

[Mike W.]

You showed no honor in selling those wheels out from under him after agreeing to a sale already. I don't care if someone walks up to your front door and waves more money in your face. HONOR THE DEAL YOU MADE.

Jay, I agree completely. I won't do business any other way, if somebody does that, then later calls me up saying the deal fell thru, I couldn't care less, I'm not doing business with them.

And here, I'm only going to do business with those who seem "OK" and contribute in a positive sense, even if it's just humor or whatever, but not those who insult and bait others. And I don't mean just a difference of opinion about how things work, that's fine, I can agree to disagree without any hard feelings. I won't mention his name, but there is an individual, not anyone named here, that used to give the foulest violent rants and threats. He is still in business, occasionally will post though not often, seems to have calmed down quite a bit, but I'd never buy anything from him even though I've never had any issues with him personally or here on the board. I just don't trust people like that.

[C.R. Krieger]

Only posting to point out that I am not even voting in the poll.

[Bryan in SB]

Only posting to point out that I am not even voting in the poll.

Only question I have, is if the money sent didn't cover the total value of the wheels plus shipping, why take it upon yourself to alter the transaction, justified or not? Why not communicate the problem and resolve it before cashing the check? Why cash a check for $500 knowing you're not going to send the full set? It appears all parties knew $500 was for a full set, and not simply of a single wheel.

It's amazing to me how a simple transaction can be screwed up beyond belief because simple communication isn't followed.

[M635CSi]

M635Csi: WRONG.
When you cashed the check for $508 that was for 4 wheels, not anythign else.

The agreement was for the "buyer" to pay shipping not the "seller". As such, there wasn't enough to purchase the wheels and pay shipping but there was enough to purchase what Holt agreed to purchase if the wheels were not available and that was the one spare wheel and tire combination.

If these are the facts here, then you are just WRONG.

You are uninformed. The seller was to pay shipping from my location, not from the location of the shipping facility.

It was not 'Your discretion' to send him something else other than what he paid for. If he just wanted the spare wheel at $175+shipping, then he would have sent you that.

Discretion didn't enter into it. It was agreed and understood that he originally was (and continues) looking for a spare wheel and tire for his car. It was suggested that I contact him which I did. After discussion, he decided he would prefer to purchase the four wheels for $500 plus shipping but if that was not available to him, he agreed to buy the spare wheel and tire for $175 plus shipping. He didn't send enough to cover purchasing the four wheels and have them shipped FROM MY LOCATION he sent enough to have them shipped from other locations. Consequently, discretion wasn't involved as the wheels were not available with the provision of the "seller" paying the shipping. He had already agreed to purchase the single spare wheel and tire for $175 plus shipping. Not real complicated. He was disappointed when the wheels were not available under conditions where the "seller" paid shipping but our agreement was that he was obligated to purchase the spare wheel and tire if the four were not available to him - which they weren't, yet he wouldn't

You showed no honor in selling those wheels out from under him after agreeing to a sale already. I don't care if someone walks up to your front door and waves more money in your face. HONOR THE DEAL YOU MADE.

The deal we made was for either the four wheels or the single spare wheel and tire. The contingency of the four wheels not being available was covered in our agreement by the alternative transaction of the single spare wheel and tire. Something that hasn't come up was that I offered Holt the four wheels off my car (PERFECT M5 WHEELS) once I brought it home from California but he wasn't having any of it, he wanted to be a victim and a victim he was going to be, even if he had to victimize himself.

I personally am so tired of sellers who make a deal and then tell me at the last minute 'Oh sorry, I know you just drove an hour and are only 15 minutes away with cash in your pocket, but I just sold them to someone else for $50 more'

Yeah, yeah. Bottom line, people need to cover their trades and when deals blows up look in the mirror for the reasons not at the other party. I realize now I shouldn't be dealing with certain people and I'll up my efforts at screening those people from my life. I accept that I made a mistake here. I made a deal with someone I shouldn't have. I own that decision to deal with him no one else. What I will not own is the roll over for someone getting paid to make a deal then not performing their paid for services but keeping the money. What Holt has done here is gotten paid for something and not delivered. I paid for his satisfaction. He cashed that check and avoided having to cover payment on the spare wheel and tire which was valuable to him and only now do I realize why. Had he gone through with the deal of buying the single spare wheel and tire as agreed, he couldn’t have claimed himself to be a victim.

hon•or: a keen sense of ethical conduct : INTEGRITY <wouldn't do it as a matter of honor> b : one's word given as a guarantee of performance

That's cute and all Jay3 but the altitude of your podium is making your head spin. The "buyer" has not cause to complain here, I do. He is on record as being satisfied with the resolution of the transaction and was compensated for that agreement. The lack of honor is to the one who doesn't keep agreements or is paid for something they do not provide.

Holt was compensated for his satisfaction. For him to now come on board and say he wasn't satisfied is to say he was paid for something he hasn't delivered. His bogus defense to that is to say, in effect, he was frightened and so should not be held to account for his unmanly act. He cries dissatisfaction yet retains payment for his satisfaction; He wants both sides of the street.

The only honorable thing for the “buyer” to post here is that although things didn’t work out the way he had hoped and wanted, he is satisfied. His argument that he is dissatisfied attaches with it a collateral obligation on him to return the funds he has received from me. I paid Holt for something I haven’t received. Poor Holt, he can't get no satisfaction even when he's paid for it.

[filmy]

Bottom line is he took my money without sending goods, kept the funds to use for half a month, and then

That's not the bottom line; the bottom line is this issue is dead because the issue was resolved to your satisfaction. You have received and accepted payment for that satisfaction and have retained that payment. You refused to accept delivery on a part you agreed to purchase and sent payment for; the only part that you sent enough money to purchase and have delivered.

absolves himself of any wrongdoing by having me "agree" to be satisfied that he will send my money back to me.

Problem with your argument is that you agreed you were satisfied. You were allowed more than the return of your money, you were allowed out of your agreement to purchase the one spare wheel and tire.

How terribly wrong of me to expect you to know the turms of our agreement. Your argument here seems to be that the turms under which people accept money aren't important if it will get them what they want or what they feel entitled. You need to return the money before you even have a legitimate platform for anything to discuss.

If I had not agreed to his demand, I would more than likely not have my funds back.

I would hardly call an offer to return money in full in addition to covering someone's mailing cost and allowing them to avoid responsibility for their agreement a "demand", but your framing of this situation is pretty obviously designed to make you look like a victim. You had every right to say no, I'm not satisfied but that right ended with your accepting money in satisfaction. You're now saying you weren't satisfied but were too afraid to admit it; how attractive.

There was nothing in this "agreement" about not posting the facts of this transaction on the board. A nondisclosure clause would probably have been beneficial for him, but it was just four rims being sold, so maybe it was not necessary.

I appreciate the lawyerly advice but what was the need for non disclosure when you were satisfied with the resolution and have gotten more than that to which you were entitled? On what basis should I have relied up a non disclosure agreement when your other agreements turned out to be worthless? You didn't keep your agreement to pay shipping, you didn't keep your agreement to buy the one spare wheel and tire and now apparently you're saying you entered into an agreement to be paid money under a pretense that you were satisfied when you weren't. What difference would it have made to have additional agreements? If you had a problem with that transaction you should have stood up like a man and held your ground. But you didn’t stand up, you didn’t hold your ground and you didn’t keep your agreements.

All of M635csi's long-winded explanations, big words and legalese is semantic bullshit. The bottom line is he took the money (by cashing the check) yet sold the wheels out from under Karl anyway - probably for a better deal - and avoided being straight with him about it in a timely manner. On top of that, he extorted a "signed" compliance letter, worded suspiciously, in order for the injured party to get a full refund.

I'd be pissed too, and I'd want everyone else on this board to know about it. In fact, I pretty much stopped purchasing on ebay because of sellers like this. "Sorry, I was out of town..." "You didn't spell my name right on the Money Order." "My dog ate my homework"...

When buying and selling online we seldom have the opportunity to get signed contracts so we have to go with trust, unfortunately, and we're left with our asses hanging out in the wind until those transactions are completed. M635csi, you are dealing with fellow enthusiasts here, in public, and there is a certain way to conduct business. Whatever the reason for your lack of good faith in this botched transaction, you have not done yourself any favors by profusely arguing non-issues.

[adrian in florida]

I have read the threads and it reminds of what my grandaddy told me... If it looks like a pig and smells like a pig its most likely a pig. Couple that with the fact that I know Karl Heinz and know he would go out of his way to help most any e-28 enthusiast. I can absolutely vouch for his character and sense of fairness. I would even let him babysit my kids, now that they are 16 and 20,LOL...My point is it sounds to me like one party screwed the pooch and is making a bunch of excuses in order to cover up his inadequate display of good faith. Karl sent him money, the guy changed the deal, sold the wheels to someone else, and then wanted to reimbuse him with One wheel and the balance. When Karl said he was not interested,now that the tenats of the deal changed, the guy should have promptly refunded his money..period. end of story... clealy karl sent the money expecting to buy 4 wheels not one. Actually, the guy should never have cashed his check that was bullshit... Now Im getting mad as I write this...

[Adam W in MN]

As much as a few people (who don't post very often I'm guessing because their userid and avatars look very unfamiliar) have tried to trivialize Karl's concerns, I think this thread provided some value and was an eye-opener for me.

Shawn beat me to it, but the part about "accepting" terms for a refund seemed totally out of line. Cashing the check and then holding onto the funds seemed a bit strange to me as well.

Whatever the exact words were that were exchanged during the course of all these events, most would agree that M635csi's actions were not in keeping with the "spirit" of the group and fostering goodwill among fellow members. Karl got his money back, eventually, but is all well that ends well, no matter how convoluted and shitty the experience is? I guess the answer is 'no'.

[skip535i]

All of M635csi's long-winded explanations, big words and legalese is semantic bullshit.

WOW.

That pretty much sums it up! M635csi isn't an insurance adjuster too is he? 8)

[ElGuappo]

WOW, I am simply stunned at the "I must be right at all costs" attitude displayed here.
Your extortion of a 'Satisfaction Agreement' is pathetic to say the least. You cling to that like it was a life preserver and you in the North Atlantic in Winter. I think most of us following this thread 'get it' that he only signed that out of fear that he would not get his money back (which should have NEVER come out of his account in the first place).
Your demand that he overnight his personal check to you is ridiculous. And then your refusal to do the same speaks volumes about your brand of hypocrisy.

In my opinion it was dishonest and misleading of you to both accept and cash his check. Ask around here and any other forum that does trading. Cashing of a check is tacit acceptance of the deal for which you were paid. When you cashed that check you agreed to sell him 4 wheels, not one with a tire.

And then on to the shipping issue.....Guess what..selling somethign as bulky as wheels is WORK. Taking them to a FedEx location is NOT unreasonable for items that bulky. Sounds like you are pouting that you did not get to skim a few $$ for 'handling', cause $120 for 4 bare wheels is excessive.

You are not doing yourself any favors on this board by clinging to your little raft of self righteousness. You simply make yourself look like more of an ass that people are not going to deal with.

My lofty podium comes from my certainty of NEVER doing that to someone that I had made a deal with. Your assertions of contingencies for the wheels being no longer available are ridiculous after you cashed the mans check. End of story.

Have a nice day.

Jay3

[bran]

I work for fedex and I know you do not need to take the packages to the service center when using an account. You just write the account number on the groundbill and call fedex to come pick them up. All applicable charges would have been billed to johnnye23's account.

[Rich in Tupelo]

From what I have read and heard from all parties.... It sounds like the seller was OK with using the Fedex account # to ship the rims (like it takes that much effort to go the the place) but decided to sell the set (after already receiving payment for them, which begs the question of "did he already have them sold to another party when he demanded the check be overnighted") to another party. When the check was written and overnighted it was with the understanding that it was for 4 (count them...1..2...3...4..) rims, not for the spare (which was a possibility if the rims were bought on ebay but since they were not, it was for all 4.

Bottom line to me is that the seller decided to change the agreement after the money was already sent. Seller had no legal right to cash the check if he did not intend to take the set of 4 rims to be shipped using the fedex account # he was provided. If the seller changed his mind on the shipping, he should have notified the parties involved in writing and worked out the details of the modified transaction before cashing the check. Once the check was deposited, the deal for the 4 rims was a lock from my perspective.

[vance]

Going back and looking at the original post http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=28576&highlight=
how many people have sold sonmething to other board members and then edited the post of all original information after the deal was done. Coincidence?

Vance

[Mr. E28]

I know how Karl Heinz feels in this situation. Something along these lines happened to me with a credit card bill payment. Atleast in this situation you did actually get your money back. I'm still waiting for money/items from too many people/places

[Tim in N FL]

M635CSi,

Like many others here, I too can vouch for Karl Heinz's fine character and forthright behavior that got derailed in the sham of a transaction into which you lured him. I am proud to call Karl Heinz (aka Parks H.) a close and valued friend. He and his family are like an extended family to me. How dare you call into question his intentions and behavior as a buyer in this transaction. Since joining this community, you, "sir" (used loosely), have been observed to be frequently obstinate and pompous. Now we learn that you are also a double-talking beguiler. Why, exactly, are you here?

I cannot believe that you had the audacity to sell the wheels out from underneath Karl (Parks) after you two had agreed on a price and shipping arrangements (via FEDEX). You then chose to add insult to injury by immediately depositing the bank-issued check (certified funds FEDEXed to you, as requested) and informed Karl, several days after the fact, that you no longer had the wheels and that you would have to get with your bookkeeper concerning issuing a refund check who only writes checks on a semi-monthly basis. WTF?!

The condescending tone you exhibited in your correspondence with Karl (Parks) minimizing the amount of the funds you had so rudely misappropriated from him (and his family) is most reprehensible. While the amount of money you received via check ($500 USD) may not be of consequence to you, Karl (Parks) told you, in no uncertain terms, that this was not a trivial amount of money to him and yet you still chose to make him wait 2-3 weeks. You also required him to endorse some sort of bullshit statement of satisfaction / understanding with the transaction before you refunded money you filched from him.

Shame on you! What was your motivation? In my not so humble opinion, you deserve to be excommunicated from membership in this community. I, for one, do not want your kind around here now that you have shown your true colors in terms of your behavior and trustworthiness. We've tolerated your misanthropic behavior here long enough. Go find another forum of German car enthusiasts (business associates, customers, family members / significant others) to harass, berate, and otherwise, beguile. Our little community of 5er enthusiasts does not need your kind here to muck up our good, clean, fun. To put this more bluntly, please go away...and do not return.

Good day "sir" (used loosely) and good riddance...

Tim

p.s.
Personally, I doubt that you ever had the e28 ///M5 (BBS RZ) wheels to sell and just deposited Karl's hard-earned money as a sort of "pay day loan" until you got paid, etc.

[barry8108]

people like this are lowlife's, similar thing happned to me, made a deal on bmw, sent the guy a deposit in another state after driving for 2 hours guy tells me it was wrecked, turned out he sold it to another board member for 300 more, i know johnnye23 and he told me about this in feb, since he's one of the nicest guys i know i believe there side of the story, i to work for fedex and it couldnt be easier to ship on a account, if they cant come to his house im sure they were only a few miles away, and there is no reason to hold the money for 30 days after insisting on overnight mailing it to him, people like this should be banned.

[Shawn D.]

Can someone here on the Beamter staff please consider moving this thread to the seller feedback fourm?

This issue has already been discussed twice in this thread, both times on this very page:

http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?p=228223#228223

http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?p=228240#228240

[spinedocab]

A couple of things seem clear here. One is that the absolute details of the original agreement will only, ever be known to the two principals. Another is that they both seem to believe in their own "rightness". None of us will ever really know.

However, a couple of things have become inferences for me. It seems that Parks overnighted the check at M635's insistence. No-one would choose to pay fedex $15-$20 if they didn't have to (evidenced by the M635 refusing to do so himself to return the $$). USPS would have delivered the check in 2 days from Tennessee anyway. This should have guaranteed Parks the wheels, but apparently Mr. M... maybe got a better offer. Irrespective of subsequent events, his commitment to sell to Parks should have stood, but it didn't.

What is interesting is that M635 refused to end the eBay auction early, thus protecting those potential buyers (and maybe garnering a higher sale price??), but then refused to protect Parks, with whom he had a genuine (not implied) contract of sale.

Having said all that, it seems to me that the value of this type of thread is that a board member can develop a feel for those with whom he would LIKE to do business, or not. Reading this won't make me do other than raise my caution level when dealing with certain folks, IF it ever were to come up.

Just my .02, FWIW
Andrew.

[spinedocab]

The fact that the exact part (wheels or wheel and spare tire) exact amount for shipping were as yet undetermined and thus the transaction was unknown in those elements doesn't make a difference, or does it? Adjustments are made all to time to balance books, issue credit or provide a refund. So my question to you is why do you feel I wasn't entitled to cash that check and deliver the spare wheel and tire as agreed with the balance (after shipping) returned? And why do you feel it's OK for someone to accept money to resolve an issue but retain a property interest in the issue after they've received money for it's release?

OK, I read a bit more closely, and now I am a bit pissed (not that is really matters to anyone ).

The above quote is BULLSHIT. If the transaction were open-ended, then why not have the buyer just send a blank check. ANd here's another concept. Parks didn't "accept money to resolve an issue". You were refunding him the dollars he sent you initially. And made him sign a form to get his dough back. WTF is that crap. He didn't want the money. He wanted the wheels you agreed to sell him. Absent that half of the transaction, what is he supposed to do? Just say "oh well, no wheels, but keep my money anyway"??

You didn't compensate him to resolve an issue. You slowly refunded him the money he sent you to purchase your goods.
You are too defensive, and self-righteous.

Weasel on, dude. Weasel-on.

[Duke]

I recommend locking this thread now. What more can be said and I am tired of seeing it moved up to the top.

[m-racer]

I have been out of town for a few days and up to my ears with clients and missed this exchange. A couple of points, even though they've probably been covered . When is the last time anyone here had a commercial transaction where you agreed to buy something at a specified price and provided payment only to find out that the seller broke his word and sold them to someone else? Oh yeah, and to add insult to injury, the seller decides to keep your money for a few weeks, just because the transaction isn't important enough to make it a priority! I just can't imagine that would be acceptable to anyone, much less to anyone in a shared community. All the legalise and bullshit can't possibly justify it. What happened here to the concept of being fair and honest, of honoring the deals you make, and of just looking a guy in the eye and because you are in the same community, knowing that you can trust him? I will tell you this, I have no question that I can expect these things from Parks Hoyle.

[Mr. E28]

Atleast this isn't like the trendixx scam over at e90post where half the members are plain screwed. With any transaction on this or any board, unless you know the person or his/her friends, there is some risk to be aware of.