The Truth is Out There . . . Just not Politically Correct

[rlomba8204]

Not quite sure what to make of that graph. I will add this, however: does anyone think the world would be a better place without the United States, even given our flaws? For those who do, would you be willing to move to another country and live there, and would they even take any of us?

What I would really like to see is for people to develop a longer-term view of things, so that even if you did not vote for the present occupant of the White House, you would be able to see that many of the problems we have today preceeded W., and many will continue, precisely because they are not easy to fix and because reasonable people can, in good faith, disagree on how to proceed.

I am pasting in an article I read yesterday in NRO. I think the author does a good job capturing some of the frustration many of us feel at the modern state of politics in this country. The article is about Sec. Rumsfeld, but the implications are broader for our political discourse.

Happy Thanksgiving.

______________________
The Washington Meat Grinder
Casualties of public service.

By Thomas Sowell


Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld faded away more quickly and more quietly than almost anyone who has been so prominent and so controversial for so many years.

What history will say of him we cannot know because most of us cannot today know all the things that were known within a small inner circle of those who had all the available facts — and all the weight of responsibility for decisions that had to be made under inescapable uncertainties and dangers.

It is hard to think of any secretary of Defense who has ever been popular and Donald Rumsfeld certainly did not become a historic first in that department. He did not suffer fools gladly, even though they are a major constituency in Washington.

Whatever history’s verdict on the Iraq war and on Secretary Rumsfeld, both deserved to be discussed and debated on a far more serious and responsible level than the media sound bites, political spin, and venomous cheap shots which have become all too common.

Whether Donald Rumsfeld’s policies were mistaken or not, that is no reason to accept superficial and even gutter-level discourse on momentous national issues. There was a time when even politicians understood that.

When British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain died early in the Second World War that his own blunders brought on and nearly lost, Winston Churchill delivered the eulogy — even though Churchill had more reason than anyone else to be bitter at Chamberlain, who had turned a deaf ear to all Churchill’s warnings for years.

“Neville Chamberlain acted with perfect sincerity,” Churchill said. How many people would say that today about a political opponent on an issue as explosive as war and peace?

Churchill said more, that “we are so often mocked by the failure of our hopes and the upsetting of our calculations,” but that “however the fates may play, we march always in the ranks of honor” when we have done our best.

Chamberlain’s best fell disastrously short but no one could accuse him of doing what he did for selfish or corrupt reasons — which has become standard operating procedure for many today. That was a different era but we need to become aware of what is possible and how much we have declined from those days.

In the United States, Wendell Wilkie received the largest vote of any Republican candidate for president when he ran against Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1940. But, after the elections were over, he did not spend his time trashing President Roosevelt. He in fact became an emissary from FDR to Prime Minister Winston Churchill.

The issue is not whether people should be nice to Donald Rumsfeld or even whether history will vindicate him or condemn him. The real issue is whether we can have responsible adult discussions of issues at a time when the fate of this nation hangs in the balance in its most dangerous hour, with reckless and hate-filled leaders in Iran and North Korea about to become nuclear threats.

This country needs to be able to draw on its best people from every walk of life and from every part of the political spectrum. But the nation is not going to get them if going to Washington means seeing the honorable reputation of a lifetime dragged through the mud just because someone disagrees with you on a political issue.

Our confirmation hearings for federal judges have become a circus and a disgrace. Nominees who have fought for civil rights, even in the days when that was a risky thing to do in the south, have been pictured as “racists” just as a political ploy to keep them from being confirmed.

Washington has become a political meat grinder where character assassination is standard procedure. Clever and glib people say “If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.” But the far larger question is whether the country can afford to repel people who are desperately needed but who may have too much self-respect to let political pygmies smear their character.

We need to attract allies abroad as well as Americans at home. Yet too many in the media are as ready to trash our allies as they are to trash Americans whose politics they don’t like. It is a great game to some. But it is a dangerous game to play when the country is facing unprecedented threats.

[C.R. Krieger]

According to the best estimates available by anyone in or around political history, the fact that we have had very high (historical) voter turn-outs in the last 4 election cycles suggests that we have a MORE-informed, not less-informed, populace.

What you're overlooking by optimistically referring to "MORE-informed" is that even with that 'more', we still have a miserable voter turnout compared to some other civilized countries. About half that of, say, Switzerland, for instance. While relatively more is a good thing, the total amount of reasonably well-informed American electorate is still IMHO, pathetic.

And, to correct C.R., we didn't "start a war" ... Allow me to remind you.

I didn't need reminding. I never thought the invasion and overthrow of Saddam was a particularly bad thing. [Staying there another 3 years is another matter, but not the subject of discussion here.] My point was simply a quick explanation of why the figures in that table seemed to spike upward. It pretty clearly says that the only time we seem to put more (rather than less) money into foreign affairs is when we're fighting a war. I made no value judgments on the merits of fighting those wars.

And, I now remember why I never get into these discussions. I'll go back to lurking...

Before anybody's even really pissed off at you? Why should you be any different?

[Velocewest]

If I make a graph of the number of people per year I've either shot or baked a cake, that graph would not help you in deciding whether or not to be my friend.

Eh, I don't know about that. If you have data points for both series, I might in fact find that information very useful. If the odds of getting a cake vs. a cap in my ass are in my favor, I think I'd be more inclined to want to hang out...

[go4carter]

Non-USA media often characterizes the USA as the Unilateral Juggernaught. It's great to see debates such as the one in this thread... it helps us Non-Americans realize that that characterization is a symptmn of an Administration, not the people. America is an amazing country, doing many great things, and making some mistakes, but those are less likely as long as this dialogue still occurs... keep it up.

[Matt]

Most of the world (well, Europe) thinks that Bush & Co are radically too far to the right. What they dont realize is about half of America is about that far to the right as well. Part of what makes the US different is that we're a bit less of an authoritarian, low-class-mobility, welfare state than the ancestors we left behind. I.e. "to the right of Europe".

Christopher Alexander is a brilliant guy that wrote some books about making buildings, neighborhoods, cities, rooms, etc, fit the way people live and how man has forgotten architecture. (his seminal work, "The Timeless Way of Building" is fantastic).

One of the things he talks about is the maximum population for an autonomous region of governance. His suggestion is much lower than you'd suspect - on the order of a million people.

Much more than this, and there is necessarily too much hierarchy in everything. People cannot feel or see that they have any effect on governance. People can also be completely anonymous from each other and feel no relation. This is pretty apparent in this country and has ramifications for our politics. During election season we seem to forget that we're all Americans, because it is politically convenient for the talking heads to focus on divisiveness and differentiation. It is absurd the degree to which democrats "hate" republicans and vise versa in this country. If you can stomach reading any of the forum posts at dailykos its hard to imagine that some of these people are your neighbors or mine... there's a LOT of anger in people over politicians they'll never meet and party ideologies that most people don't evern care that much about.

I've got some relatives that are Icelandic and we were talking to them about poltiical stuff (they started it - standard anti-Bush rant. Europeans sure do feel comfortable telling you they don't like your government.) It's hard for them to imagine, being that iceland the nation has only about 250k people, something like the US, which has 300m people and is enormous. Somehow we talked about something in California and i was like "Well, i don't like california" and they were like "so if terrorists attacked california you would be happy?". I replied "of course not. There is a big mindshare difference between me and what i perceive to be the average californian, but that doesn't mean i don't feel some kinship because they're still Americans. Just like you can fight with your wife but when someone else attacks, you stand up for her".

I don't think enough people "get" that we're all Americans, and we're supposed to stand up for each other. Yeah, 9/11 happens and hugging goes up 320940% (thanks, theonion.com), but any other day of the year, x hates y, y hates z, and z hates x & y. It's a shame.

[kit533i]

You better chime in here - no fair hiding in the balcony eating popcorn and Junior Mints.

You know, I have stated my political leanings on several occasions in the past and this discussion would generally be a repeat. This has been a tough semester and I currently don't have the time or energy to chime in. I really didn't have time to read the whole thing for that matter, but I did. Hence, the popcorn and Junior Mints because if nothing else, this discussion is entertaining.

It does suck to have your general premise drown out by focusing on something tangential though isn't it?

BTW, this quote from the article above sums it up for me:

The issue is not whether people should be nice to Donald Rumsfeld or even whether history will vindicate him or condemn him. The real issue is whether we can have responsible adult discussions of issues at a time when the fate of this nation hangs in the balance in its most dangerous hour, with reckless and hate-filled leaders in Iran and North Korea about to become nuclear threats.

edited to add this quote which I went back to read

[BDK]

wow, I go away for a week or so and we start discussing politics again.....

and I guess America is now a democratic, as in democracy, nation again???????....

I thought we were still a facist-fundamentalist state....
you know companies controlling most of the gov't,
religious groups controlling the rest of the gov't,
propaganda instead of real news,
one supreme leader,
you know the decider, the guy with strategery....

just my opinion, but aren't we're starting to sound abit like the countries that we "introduce democracy" to...

I would like to see more graphs though,
We need more graphs,
I like graphs,
I like pie charts too....
the more colors the better the graph I say....

We need more rose colored glasses too,
everyone should wear them....



still seems like a facist state......


maybe, just maybe things are looking up though...
if nothing else a change is coming,for the better or the worse a change from the current path is definately needed....

and yes, I voted .....

holy cow, I have a butt load of messages....

need to get to those today...

I gotta go....

[M635CSi]

This Thanksgiving was wonderful and gave me another opportunity to be grateful for the wonderful life I enjoy. One of my hopes for the future is that people begin to put down their differences and embrace their common bonds. People are basically the same, if they're fed certain information their whole life, they will think and act the same way. It doesn't matter if that person grew up in the U.S., Great Briton, Germany or Iran. People are people. I see immigrants come to America and within a few short years they embrace more traditional American values (hard work, thrift, desire for a better life) than most of people who were born and grew up here.

[robeyff]

I thought we were still a facist-fundamentalist state....
you know companies controlling most of the gov't,
religious groups controlling the rest of the gov't,
propaganda instead of real news,
one supreme leader,
you know the decider, the guy with strategery....

Kind'a like the rest. business, huh? How's the new one?

[Bonapartist]

I agree that it seems a popularity contest, but I am optimistic that a more educated, well informed, motivated voter pool will consider a candidate "popular" for reasons beneficial to good governance.

And that educated, well informed and motivated voter pool is awful shallow and small.

[robeyff]

I agree that it seems a popularity contest, but I am optimistic that a more educated, well informed, motivated voter pool will consider a candidate "popular" for reasons beneficial to good governance.

And that educated, well informed and motivated voter pool is awful shallow and small.

I know - I can't quote the #s, but a declining # of U.S. high schools require a civics course - increasing the numbers that have no idea how the mechanics of government function.

For a BMW tie-in, in my State (S.C.) most of the dollars earmarked for higher education in the '80s and '90s went to build and staff dozens of Technical Education Colleges - not High Tech (IT, Engineering, etc.), but AC/Heat Repair, Paint & Body, etc. We GAVE (and I do mean gave) BMW the land and 0 tax for them to build their NA facility here - we are to BMW what Mexico is to us - the average BMW line worker in Germany makes 34.00+USD per hour; here in S.C. they get half that and feel lucky to get it.