Is there a legal source for R12

[garageboy]

I am the last person to suggest something aftermarket, but not in this case.

I have had complete success with Freeze-12 as an R12 replacement. Google it and you will find it. The Time Capsule was converted to R134a by the PO and I wish he hadn't. My previous E28 worked great with Freeze-12. The only caveat is that the A/C has to be in excellent working order, but that's always true.

Good luck!

[tn535i]

I've also used some of the HC-12a or HC-134a or whatever you would like to call it or they label it. I would argue that as a alternative to recharge an original R12 system on an old car not worth the expense of an AC rebuild it is a good way to go. Both our 535 (mix of HC & R-12 since never opened) with 265k miles or our 325i with 300+k miles (new x-valve) are running like this. Neither cools spectacularly because the compressors are weak but even on a 90+ day moving along you are fine. Stop and go you will warm up. I've spent less than $100 on both cars combined to have them working but $500-1000 damage would total either car. I put the HC-12a sticker in each car. Illegal?, maybe, legal to purchase illegal for a licensed person to put in but I'm not licensed. Flammable?, sure, but no worse than the fuel on board and you will run out of the stuff very quickly since it takes a small amount to charge the puny little system on these old cars. It would burn for maybe 10 seconds 'IF' there was an ignition source. IMO the whole flammability concern is to force you to buy the more expensive alternatives which support lobyists.

If I had a keeper like my M6 with 60k miles I would not do this. My 6 needs some R-12 to get it back up to optimal and I just haven't touched it yet. Someday I hope to run across a couple original cans of R12 and take care of it. Maybe 3-4 cans would keep it going another 20 years. IME, the e24/28 system seems to suffer from very small leaks where recharging lasts many years at a time. The e30's seems to always pop the expansion valve and have to be taken apart.

[wkohler]

Buying R12 when I did is one of the few smart things I've ever done.

[four2zerohero]

What about the people on utube filling their AC systems with the can duster stuff, they say its compatible with R12 and maybe not as flammable. May be worth a check for those on a tight AC budget.

[cwomike]

HC12a works as good, if not better, than R12 and certainly better than 134a. It is available if you do some research at a reasonable price. I bought a case of 12 (6oz) cans for $80. It may not be legal in your state.
I have been running HC12a for more than 10 years without issue, just cold AC.

[Karl Grau]

Buying R12 when I did is one of the few smart things I've ever done.

[demetk]

Not buying R12 when I should have is one of few stupid things I have ever done.

[tn535i]

If you've only done a few stupid things you are way ahead of most of us. Way ahead of me.

As for the duster gas. It's go no Chlorine (Cl is the bad one that kills the planet) but more hydrogen which makes it a little less stable but probably no less stable than butane. The Flourine makes it less flammable but don't kid yourself even the HFC's like this or 134a are still flammable just with higher auto ignition temps. It needs to be fully Flourinated or Chlorinated to be more or less non-flammable. The real questions as a refrigerant would be in the details on the gas like boiling point and enthalpy, yada yada thermodynamic stuff I used to once understand. This is what makes a gas ideal if all the numbers are just right for the temperatures and pressures in an automotive system.

Just as aside, if I understand correctly CCL2F2 (R-12) was developed more as an alternative to butane in industrial processes to keep from blowing multi-million $ plants up that make useful stuff, not necessarily as a refrigerant.

[Mike W.]

I'll cop to lots of smart and dumb things, but chalk up buying a 30LB jug of it in Bakersfield when it was no longer on sale in the SF Bay area as a smart one.

[four2zerohero]

Yeah I really ought to start hoarding the stuff since its still sort of available on CL . I heard that some brands are better that others e.g. DuPont Vs others. Not that ive found any DuPont but does anyone have any say on this?

[Mike W.]

Yeah I really ought to start hoarding the stuff since its still sort of available on CL . I heard that some brands are better that others e.g. DuPont Vs others. Not that ive found any DuPont but does anyone have any say on this?

I have not heard that. It's a chemical, it should be Dichlorodifluoromethane regardless of who makes it.

Now the other drop in replacements are another story since they're all different, but plain old R12 is R12 regardless of who makes it.

[four2zerohero]

Yeah I really ought to start hoarding the stuff since its still sort of available on CL . I heard that some brands are better that others e.g. DuPont Vs others. Not that ive found any DuPont but does anyone have any say on this?

I have not heard that. It's a chemical, it should be Dichlorodifluoromethane regardless of who makes it.

Now the other drop in replacements are another story since they're all different, but plain old R12 is R12 regardless of who makes it.

thats good to know

[wkohler]

When I was buying, I stuck with US made stuff.

[tn535i]

Dupont invented it and probably made more of it rebranded or otherwise than anyone else. They also used it to make other things but recylce what they used in a continuous recovery system. I wouldn't be surprised if they still do.

Other manufacturer's have made CCl2F2 for sure. Making a chemical isn't just flipping a switch though. A bad process could include all kinds of unreacted or intermediate materials. I would stick with a known brand if trying to buy some up.

[BRRV]

SOT: I finally got on the phone this morning and started looking for an AC shop that would do R-12 here in Colorado. Actually did not take me that long, surprisingly. And after really tearing into this whole AC issue, lots of research and notes, I think the consensus is that doing a conversion if you can still use R-12 is not the way to go - I only wish I'd known this fifteen years ago. OK, R-12 isn't cheap, but it sure wasn't an arm and a leg, actually reasonable in today's day and age, and much more reliable in our cars than R134a. And I don't have to buy barrier hoses, or a parallel flow condensor to get R134a to work right, or even minimally, and so on. I was quite surprised that I had an intelligent conversation with a MVAC guy who gets it, understood my vehicle, and agreed with me. Now I just have to get the system together, all the new R-12 components in, and get it done.

[wkohler]

Its not too hard to convert back. I did with my 535is.

[tn535i]

You can probably convert back to R-12 simply evacuating the 134a and adding R-12 if you have the right oil. Some of the oils don't like the chlorine in R-12 though. You can convert to HC-12a in any situation.

[BRRV]

You can convert to HC-12a in any situation.

No mineral oil in the system, certainly, it was converted to R134a and used PAG oil, and I have a bad expansion valve, and a contaminated system when it came apart anyway. And let's not forget the flaps issue: even when it was working I was getting bleed air from outside, and that doesn't help with marginal AC. New dryer and pressure switch too, as well as taking apart the dashboard to fix the flaps, EV, etc. And I should rebuild the compressor, too, I think it would need it, at least a seal set.

There is no R134a in it - the system blew up for the third time in 2004 and I said f*** it, I was tired of dealing with it. So the system is open, inoperative, and probably filthy to boot. I blew the suction hose from the evaporator to the compressor. Oh, and it had a new, BMW condensor with less than 500 miles on it when it let go on the highway.

Probably not a good idea to not fix it at the time, but I didn't think I really needed it. Ten years later my feelings have changed, either that or it's gotten hotter!

I don't want to use a hydrocarbon like OZ or es-12, Red Tek etc - personal reasons, as in it's flammable and I just don't want to take that chance, right at the moment. However, I will say that, If R-12 is unavailable when I go to charge the system, all bets are off.

[tn535i]

So if you have the moral and conflaguration dilema over HC-12a here's the legitimate primary reason to consider purchasing some HC-12a. It's excellent for testing! At about $6 a can it will be a cheap way to help purge things. Hook a can up and flush through parts before making the last connections which I've done. Then make your final connections and see if it will hold pressure and cool with the HC-12a. Maybe 2 cans, $12 to test the system. It's then safe to vent to atmosphere (no open flames and outdoors of course) and very small residual amounts will mix fine with your precious R-12 when you do charge it.

This is my stated reason for buying it if asked.

[BRRV]

So if you have the moral and conflaguration dilema over HC-12a here's the legitimate primary reason to consider purchasing some HC-12a. It's excellent for testing! ...This is my stated reason for buying it if asked.

That is a great reason, and makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the tip, I will use it. In fact, I may start a new thread with comments or suggestions relating to restoring R-12 in the AC. I'm sure there are things I've missed, especially when it comes to the renovation of the twin HVAC system and getting the system leak-free before we go to R-12.

[vandiesel]

Should I jump on this?

Freon 12 r12
http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/pts/4583413508.html

I have an e30 and 2 e28s to do.

[Mike W.]

If you need it, yes. If you don't need it don't bother.