Who is John Galt?

[mooseheadm5]

What's more, Hostess has had 6 CEOs since 2002. The latest, Greg Rayburn, is a liquidation specialist. He was brought in to take the company apart.

[TheE28Ranch]

I wonder how many people have actually read the book that the thread title refers to (the movies don't count.)

You mean the horrifically boring tome of 10th-grade level mental masturbation? How else do you describe a 234-page soliloquy that's more repetitive than a Beach Boys song and has less value? Anyway, Rand is a useful introductory set of thoughts for middle schoolers, then you learn how to think for yourself and realize that the world she envisions (which, by the way, is godless) just doesn't function for multiple reasons.

Unless your name is Paul Ryan.

-tammer (if you must read Rand, The Fountainhead is better and will waste less of your life)

Tammer, I am embarrassed for you and your close-minded opinion and comments. Yeah Atlas Shrugged has its boring points, yeah it's wordy, yeah it's angular in its perspective, but to sit and try to take away what Rand conveyed in her works is just pure ignorance. To flippantly write her works off really shows something, and it isn't enlightenment or intelligence. And oh my Lord, you brought God into the discussion. Tell us how much God means to you, your family, and your daily life before you bring Him in as one of your bullet points in fortification of your position on any given matter.

I'll take Rand's objectivism any day over perceived entitlement. I think people can really take away something from Atlas Shrugged, like having a little pride in what you do in life, and working hard at achieving your goals. Now what is wrong with that? No it's not a perfect school of thought, but it has a lot more endearing qualities about it for a small private blue-collar business owner like me than the teenage single parents living on handouts in the projects, and those adept at playing the system. For those motivated and proud of the work put into their chosen profession, it can be a blueprint for success. Hard work = results = better existence. Pretty simple, really. There are a lot of people that can benefit from reading the book. Take it from a guy who built his still-growing own company out of nothing and respected the book...and didn't read it in high school as a requirement, but as an adult, on his own accord.

Maybe that's it, Tammer, and you other harsh critics, perhaps you all read it as teenagers with your rose-tinted glasses. If you read it today, you would take away something different from it, if you left an open mind for it. Even if you are a fan of socialism, you can learn something from it.

[Tammer in Philly]

:laugh: Tammer, I am embarrassed for you and your close-minded opinion and comments. Yeah Atlas Shrugged has its boring points, yeah it's wordy, yeah it's angular in its perspective, but to sit and try to take away what Rand conveyed in her works is just pure ignorance. To flippantly write her works off really shows something, and it isn't enlightenment or intelligence. And oh my Lord, you brought God into the discussion. Tell us how much God means to you, your family, and your daily life before you bring Him in as one of your bullet points in fortification of your position on any given matter.

My view of god is irrelevant. The (obvious) cognitive disconnect I was pointing out is that most outspoken supporters of Rand in today's western society are also outspokenly religious, which your post suggest describes you as well. That makes as much sense as an imam being a proponent of Salman Rushdie's writings.

If I were to speak your kind of language, I would say that man's only moral commandment is: Thou shalt think. But a 'moral commandment' is a contradiction in terms. The moral is the chosen, not the forced; the understood, not the obeyed. The moral is the rational, and reason accepts no commandments.

The alleged short-cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only a short circuit destroying the mind.

I'll take Rand's objectivism any day over perceived entitlement. I think people can really take away something from Atlas Shrugged, like having a little pride in what you do in life, and working hard at achieving your goals. Now what is wrong with that? No it's not a perfect school of thought, but it has a lot more endearing qualities about it for a small private blue-collar business owner like me than the teenage single parents living on handouts in the projects, and those adept at playing the system. For those motivated and proud of the work put into their chosen profession, it can be a blueprint for success. Hard work = results = better existence. Pretty simple, really. There are a lot of people that can benefit from reading the book. Take it from a guy who built his still-growing own company out of nothing and respected the book...and didn't read it in high school as a requirement, but as an adult, on his own accord.

Maybe that's it, Tammer, and you other harsh critics, perhaps you all read it as teenagers with your rose-tinted glasses. If you read it today, you would take away something different from it, if you left an open mind for it. Even if you are a fan of socialism, you can learn something from it.

Not sure how I'm being close-minded. I've read the book and considered it. I've actually read 5 or 6 Rand books, including the Fountainhead, We the Living, Anthem, and one or two others. I was old enough to form coherent, informed opinions at the time.

Objectivism is a philosophy which cannot produce a functional society if everyone follows it. Not to mention it doesn't jibe with basic evolutionary principles for social beings (which humans happen to be). One can argue about whether or not altruism exists as such, but one cannot argue that actions taken to strengthen the tribe are beneficial to the individual, and that groups of humans that pooled resources and allowed specialization to flourish would maximize their talent pool and outcompete groups taking an "each for himself" approach. But forget all that; one needs look no further than Rand's own despicable actions to know that her philosophy is little more than a justification for hedonism.

You put forth the idea that the only alternative to Objectivism is socialism and a sense of entitlement. I think that belies an overtly simplistic view of the world, which may follow from hollow teachings that there is only good and evil. It's a nice fantasy if you can convince yourself of its veracity.

-tammer

[1st 5er]

My view of god is irrelevant.
-tammer

"I don't think so Tam".

[waynet1]

My view of god is irrelevant.
-tammer

"I don't think so Tam".

[w0014170]

My view of god is irrelevant.
-tammer

You have admitted that a view of yours is irrelevant? Now it's a party!

[oldskool]

It's always kinda weird when oldskool tries to post something substantive. Stick to the funnies, mang.

I have something else rather substantive that I'd like to present. Do you have a sister?

[Brad D.]

It's always kinda weird when oldskool tries to post something substantive. Stick to the funnies, mang.

I have something else rather substantive that I'd like to present. Do you have a sister?

[Frybrid 524td]

It's always kinda weird when oldskool tries to post something substantive. Stick to the funnies, mang.

I have something else rather substantive that I'd like to present. Do you have a sister?

Much better! You had me worried.

[dsmith]

I'm in the middle of a union campaign. This morning, I talked to an employee slated to vote, who is not pro union, and he wanted to leave a box of Twinkies in the office for the pro union folk...

[davintosh]

I think oldskool may have had something to do with this image...

[WilNJ]

I think oldskool may have had something to do with this image...

There's a lot more to that story than simply unions without foresight.

[mooseheadm5]

But the picture is funny.

[WilNJ]

But the picture is funny.

In the context of the book, I think the picture is very sad.

Ayn Rand's Atlas was the collective, hard working, entrepreneurial, 'blue collar' capitalist heroes in her story, Hostess is a perfect example of the cronyism that's destroying the US economy. The management of Hostess is more James Taggart than Dagny.

[TheE28Ranch]

I saw on the news where there is a grassroots effort by some Hostess fans to have the President nationalize the Hostess company. Another interesting real-life parallel to the book.

I had no idea before this thread (and looking up / trying to find what apparently made Rand so evil) that Ryan was talking up Atlas Shrugged during the election campaign, which would explain some of the perspectives being shared here on this thread. I bet his actions have actually influenced people's opinions of the book as a result. I suppose anyone who sees any merit in the book and speaks out as such will now be pigeonholed as a conservative Republican. Awesome.

I thought it a good read with some long-winded points, very much like Lord of the Rings. I have said that Atlas Shrugged is LOTR but for grown-ups, long before this thread, or Paul's satirical image above. Haha. Ha.

[Coldswede]

Trey, I do not think Rand was "Evil" and given her history it is totally understandable how she came to be such a proponent of unfettered Capitalism, anti government beliefs and almost unintentionally a symbol of the "Right".

This is all from memory and very abbreviated, so if Google is a bit more precise, someone sue me!

Rand was in college her family owned a jewelry store (or stores?) in what was then Tzarist Russia. When the Bolshevik revolution occurred and the Communists came to power her families shop(s) were taken from them and the family descended into abject poverty. This conditioned Rand into hating anything remotely resembling "For the common good" or government control. She brought those feelings to the US with her and spread the word of Rand with pen and her like minded organization.

She wrote many books. The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are probably the most famous and are both epic works. For a short and easy read to discover what Rand is about I recommend her "Anthem", a work where the concept of "I" does not exist.

It is also interesting to note that late in Rands life she came to mellow her view points. So much in fact, she was asked to leave the organization she founded.

As as Hostess goes: Rand would have been adamantly against any government bail out. Hell! I'm adamantly against a Twinkie Rescue!

[RonW]

I saw on the news where there is a grassroots effort by some Hostess fans to have the President nationalize the Hostess company. Another interesting real-life parallel to the book.

Sort of. You're talking about D'Anconia Copper? That's not really the same thing, unless Hostess's management intentionally drove it into the gutter because they saw the nationalization coming.

[Karl Grau]

Sort of. You're talking about D'Anconia Copper?

It's been a million years since I read Atlas Shrugged but I'm assuming D'Anconia was named for Anaconda Copper Mining Company?

[oldskool]

Trey, I do not think Rand was "Evil" and given her history it is totally understandable how she came to be such a proponent of unfettered Capitalism, anti government beliefs and almost unintentionally a symbol of the "Right".

This is all from memory and very abbreviated, so if Google is a bit more precise, someone sue me!

Rand was in college her family owned a jewelry store (or stores?) in what was then Tzarist Russia. When the Bolshevik revolution occurred and the Communists came to power her families shop(s) were taken from them and the family descended into abject poverty.

She wrote many books. The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are probably the most famous and are both epic works. For a short and easy read to discover what Rand is about I recommend her "Anthem", a work where the concept of "I" does not exist.

It is also interesting to note that late in Rands life she came to mellow her view points. So much in fact, she was asked to leave the organization she founded.

Norma McCorvey (the infamous Jane Roe of Roe v. Wade) retracted all of her statements and forfeited all testimony and was quietly ushered out of Planned Parenthood. Such is life.
Bill Gates and that foundation continue the boot-step march towards eugenics. His father is a shining beacon on the hill to which I have a trained scope on.

[mooseheadm5]

I had no idea before this thread (and looking up / trying to find what apparently made Rand so evil) that Ryan was talking up Atlas Shrugged during the election campaign, which would explain some of the perspectives being shared here on this thread.

No, this was all long before Ryan showed up on the scene. The biggest beef with the Tea Partiers using the works of Rand as their operations manual is that many of their core beliefs conflict so heavily with the ideas put forward by her writings. Rand's ideal world is one where there is no religion and no government control of anything. One should not act in a fashion that actively harms anyone, but one is essentially selfish and never does anything for humanitarian or egalitarian reasons. This is a profoundly childish philosophy, though I understand where it comes from.

The issue is that using this manual means turning your back on the manual of the Christian right, the bible. These two things are in stark contrast to each other. Now someone like Paul Ryan exemplifies why Atlas Shrugged is such a poor choice for someone that is a rightist Christian. He makes the book required reading in his office, yet he sets policy based on his religion. One of the underlying themes is that freedom, individual liberty, and laissez-faire capitalism is the way, but both Republicans and Democrats are very authoritarian in their own ways and support things that go against the very core of Rand's writings. How can you be so into objectivism and Christianity? Simple, by only choosing what you like from the two manuals, regardless of how much they contradict each other.

[Tammer in Philly]

Paul, don't go insinuating that having an internally consistent set of principles and values underlying your entire belief system is somehow worthwhile. Intellectual honesty is highly overrated.

-tammer

[Matt]

I had no idea before this thread (and looking up / trying to find what apparently made Rand so evil) that Ryan was talking up Atlas Shrugged during the election campaign, which would explain some of the perspectives being shared here on this thread.

No, this was all long before Ryan showed up on the scene. The biggest beef with the Tea Partiers using the works of Rand as their operations manual is that many of their core beliefs conflict so heavily with the ideas put forward by her writings. Rand's ideal world is one where there is no religion and no government control of anything. One should not act in a fashion that actively harms anyone, but one is essentially selfish and never does anything for humanitarian or egalitarian reasons. This is a profoundly childish philosophy, though I understand where it comes from.

The issue is that using this manual means turning your back on the manual of the Christian right, the bible. These two things are in stark contrast to each other. Now someone like Paul Ryan exemplifies why Atlas Shrugged is such a poor choice for someone that is a rightist Christian. He makes the book required reading in his office, yet he sets policy based on his religion. One of the underlying themes is that freedom, individual liberty, and laissez-faire capitalism is the way, but both Republicans and Democrats are very authoritarian in their own ways and support things that go against the very core of Rand's writings. How can you be so into objectivism and Christianity? Simple, by only choosing what you like from the two manuals, regardless of how much they contradict each other.

There are plenty of Christians who like Ayn Rand. I'm one of them.

You have a bad misunderstanding on a few points. First, you say that Rand espouses no government control of anything. This is perhaps sloppy on your part, but is incorrect in any case. Rand is no anarchist, and Rand hated libertarians. Rand beleived in a strong, powerful state, even one with interventionist foreign policy. The key point is that the state would in all cases enforce the moral order of things -- Rand's moral order.

Furthermore, you also misunderstand Rand's ideas about humanity. Rand's primary beef is what she views as society's inverted value system. Cheifly, she says that the "value" of self-sacrifice is immoral. Her beef with Christianity is that it extolls the virtue of self-sacrifice; and it is one of the pillars of socio-political conditoining that does this to individuals within a society.

The problem for Rand is that the virtuous, value producers in society are constantly conditioned to think that they do not deserve to be rewarded for their acheivements. She objects to the idea that human neediness is of paramount importance, rather than human greatness.

Rand is perfectly fine with people spending their own money in any way that pleases them, and if someone is pleased by the difference their money makes when spent on others, that is a perfectly fine and Rand-compatible outcome.

What Rand objects to is the claim that self-__sacrifice__-for-others is a moral good. She objects to the idea that charity or altruism could ever be _mandatory_.

The differene between voluntary charity and socio-politically impressed altruism is an important distinction to make when understanding what Rand is really talking about.

There are criticisms of Rand that I have read and can agree with. Murray Rothbard even wrote a one-act play about her that was hillarious. But the overwhelming majority of people who criticize her disagree with her outcomes, and work backwards from there.

The critiques in this thread do not meet the bar; they amount to middle school name calling.

[Coldswede]

Trey, I do not think Rand was "Evil" and given her history it is totally understandable how she came to be such a proponent of unfettered Capitalism, anti government beliefs and almost unintentionally a symbol of the "Right".

This is all from memory and very abbreviated, so if Google is a bit more precise, someone sue me!

Rand was in college her family owned a jewelry store (or stores?) in what was then Tzarist Russia. When the Bolshevik revolution occurred and the Communists came to power her families shop(s) were taken from them and the family descended into abject poverty.

She wrote many books. The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are probably the most famous and are both epic works. For a short and easy read to discover what Rand is about I recommend her "Anthem", a work where the concept of "I" does not exist.

It is also interesting to note that late in Rands life she came to mellow her view points. So much in fact, she was asked to leave the organization she founded.

Norma McCorvey (the infamous Jane Roe of Roe v. Wade) retracted all of her statements and forfeited all testimony and was quietly ushered out of Planned Parenthood. Such is life.
Bill Gates and that foundation continue the boot-step march towards eugenics. His father is a shining beacon on the hill to which I have a trained scope on.

I'm not too sure where this fits into the discussion at hand, beyond the less than rare occurrence of people changing their minds. People often change their minds for various reasons. Not the least of which is being offered a large sum of money to do so. Which in this case results in being paid twice for the same "Original Thought"

Eugenics is a worry for you? Consider that the most brutal, unsympathetic practice of Eugenics is that of, for want of a simpler word, Mother Nature. Of course Mother Nature has been jack boot marching down the path for a few years now so that makes it okay I guess.

[narth212]

Back to the original point:

Unions are a fucking useless anachronism. They undermine American values and promote Sharia distribution of my wealth to poors. They didn't build that.