Fun to drive and economical. MINI a good choice?

[tsmall07]

I was talking to a dealer tech who said that they keep spare engines and transmissions in stock for warranty replacement. Apparently, the timing belt tensioner can break and when that happens, it pretty much grenades the engine and transmission.

I would say that these are another reasons to look in to Audi product, because A3 built from 2009 and up the timing belt was replaced with timing chain, and either the manual 6 speed (only front wheel drive comes with manual) or the 6 speed Stronic tranny is bullet proof, also the TFSI engines are supper efficient due to straight fuel injection system and being a Quattro is like icing on top of the cake.

All minis use timing chains. They do have issues with the timing chain tensioners failing and grenading engines.

They also have sludge issues with the 15k oil changes. Specifically the turbo N14. The vacuum pump is driven off the exhaust cam. When they sludge up the vacuum pump seizes and sheers the cam gear off the cam and throws it into the bed plate of the block and totals the engine. Afaik there is no TSB on this issue, but it does happen.

I worked on mini's for a bit in my career. I'm not impressed at all. Stick with a Audi A3 or Japanese car. The quality just isn't there with mini.

Do you know if there is a preventative fix for this? Has Mini taken steps to prevent this in the new engines?

[cgraff]

I was talking to a dealer tech who said that they keep spare engines and transmissions in stock for warranty replacement. Apparently, the timing belt tensioner can break and when that happens, it pretty much grenades the engine and transmission.

I would say that these are another reasons to look in to Audi product, because A3 built from 2009 and up the timing belt was replaced with timing chain, and either the manual 6 speed (only front wheel drive comes with manual) or the 6 speed Stronic tranny is bullet proof, also the TFSI engines are supper efficient due to straight fuel injection system and being a Quattro is like icing on top of the cake.

All minis use timing chains. They do have issues with the timing chain tensioners failing and grenading engines.

They also have sludge issues with the 15k oil changes. Specifically the turbo N14. The vacuum pump is driven off the exhaust cam. When they sludge up the vacuum pump seizes and sheers the cam gear off the cam and throws it into the bed plate of the block and totals the engine. Afaik there is no TSB on this issue, but it does happen.

I worked on mini's for a bit in my career. I'm not impressed at all. Stick with a Audi A3 or Japanese car. The quality just isn't there with mini.

Do you know if there is a preventative fix for this? Has Mini taken steps to prevent this in the new engines?

Couple of good links:

http://distributionthp.free.fr/ressourc ... 092010.pdf

http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/fo ... ssues-188/

[m-racer]

Thanks all. Appreciate the information. Here's the end of the story. Niece #1 bought a Honda S2000 with 48k on it (1 owner, Honda Certified car, had to go a bit outside her budget but not much). Niece #2 called last night and was frustrated because she did not like the MINI interior and all the rest of the cars she had driven had "no soul"(knew we raised that girl right!). In context her 90 325i (stick, sports seats, Billys/H&R, etc.) has 185k on the clock but got an engine rebuild and a fairly new gearbox/clutch, new ac, new suspension and a fresh 3.73 diff. when I bought it for her at 140k. The paint is shot (but the body is rust free), wheels need a refinish, needs tires, exhaust needs replacing and the interior is bad except for the dash. Her question to me was "if I spend 5k on my car, can I get it back in shape? I can invest the other 7k I saved". My answer was, I am pretty sure we can get close. I bought the door panels and some plastic bits off a wrecked E30 at the shop I use this am along with tail lights and fogs for 175 bucks. I have a set of spare wheels form my last E30 and an exhaust that I removed when I bought the Supersprint that I am going to donate. Need to price a headliner and carpet set and find a shop to re-cover the front seats. My shop will pull the molding and glass off and drive it to the paint shop down the street that I have used in the past. Like the way this girl thinks.

[1st 5er]

Like the way this girl thinks.

[Tammer in Philly]

Thanks all. Appreciate the information. Here's the end of the story. Niece #1 bought a Honda S2000 with 48k on it (1 owner, Honda Certified car, had to go a bit outside her budget but not much). Niece #2 called last night and was frustrated because she did not like the MINI interior and all the rest of the cars she had driven had "no soul"(knew we raised that girl right!). In context her 90 325i (stick, sports seats, Billys/H&R, etc.) has 185k on the clock but got an engine rebuild and a fairly new gearbox/clutch, new ac, new suspension and a fresh 3.73 diff. when I bought it for her at 140k. The paint is shot (but the body is rust free), wheels need a refinish, needs tires, exhaust needs replacing and the interior is bad except for the dash. Her question to me was "if I spend 5k on my car, can I get it back in shape? I can invest the other 7k I saved". My answer was, I am pretty sure we can get close. I bought the door panels and some plastic bits off a wrecked E30 at the shop I use this am along with tail lights and fogs for 175 bucks. I have a set of spare wheels form my last E30 and an exhaust that I removed when I bought the Supersprint that I am going to donate. Need to price a headliner and carpet set and find a shop to re-cover the front seats. My shop will pull the molding and glass off and drive it to the paint shop down the street that I have used in the past. Like the way this girl thinks.

Two excellent decisions, IMO.

-tammer

[1st 5er]

Similar story with a friends daughter who was looking for a different car.
I suggested she dump a little cash in to fix what she had and stash the rest since her current vehicle met her needs perfectly and only needed minor cooling system refreshing.
She bought the parts, I did the work (free labor is always good), and she was happy.

As long as the car doesn't end up getting totaled it's not a bad option.

[clongo]

I was talking to a dealer tech who said that they keep spare engines and transmissions in stock for warranty replacement. Apparently, the timing belt tensioner can break and when that happens, it pretty much grenades the engine and transmission.

I would say that these are another reasons to look in to Audi product, because A3 built from 2009 and up the timing belt was replaced with timing chain, and either the manual 6 speed (only front wheel drive comes with manual) or the 6 speed Stronic tranny is bullet proof, also the TFSI engines are supper efficient due to straight fuel injection system and being a Quattro is like icing on top of the cake.

All minis use timing chains. They do have issues with the timing chain tensioners failing and grenading engines.

They also have sludge issues with the 15k oil changes. Specifically the turbo N14. The vacuum pump is driven off the exhaust cam. When they sludge up the vacuum pump seizes and sheers the cam gear off the cam and throws it into the bed plate of the block and totals the engine. Afaik there is no TSB on this issue, but it does happen.

I worked on mini's for a bit in my career. I'm not impressed at all. Stick with a Audi A3 or Japanese car. The quality just isn't there with mini.

Do you know if there is a preventative fix for this? Has Mini taken steps to prevent this in the new engines?

They have a updated chain tensioner. Typically they replaced the timing cartridge (guides, chain, etc) when they do the repair.

As far as sludge... No. BMW (and a lot of other car manufacturer's) swear by the 15k oil change interval. It gets even worse if the owner of the car is too lazy to schedule a appointment and they go over 15k between oil changes. I see many BMW's that are 3-5k miles past due for their oil service's in our shop (and the other shops i have worked at).

The supercharged engines also had their fair share of issues. Crank pulley's seperating, superchargers going bad, trans issues, etc. I've never been a fan of Mini. Then again... I wouldnt own a BMW post E46 either.

[rlomba8204]

Reading this thread, I cannot comprehend why people dislike timing belts, particularly knowledgeable enthusiasts who maintain their cars. It is merely a maintenance item. Follow the maintenance schedule and you don't have an issue. Moreover, with older cars, and engines north of 100k miles, there is often a concern with the integrity of the timing chain, tensioner, guides, etc. With a timing belt, all of those wear items can be addressed at a regular service interval and presumably in a cheaper, easier to access manner because the manufacturer presumably / hopefully has designed the car and the motor to be accessible for this service.

So it is not that I think timing belts are terrific or something, but I think it really should be a non-issue in the purchase decision, and relative to a timing chain and as an offset to the additional maintenance cost there are some tangible benefits.

[tsmall07]

presumably in a cheaper, easier to access manner because the manufacturer presumably / hopefully has designed the car and the motor to be accessible for this service.

You would hope that, but it is typically not the case. Particularly in a FWD car. You generally have to dismantle the front of the engine to get to the TB. It's just an annoyance/inconvenience in a 528e, but (as you know) in a FWD car, the front of the engine is actually the side and the parts that have to come off are generally crammed up against the frame rail and shock tower.

Just because something is a maintenance item, doesn't mean that it is a non-issue, IMO. It's just one more thing that I have to keep track of the age of and replace periodically. A timing chain every 250k or so is a lot easier to deal with. I'm not saying I wouldn't buy a car just because it has a TB, but if I had the choice, I'd choose the chain every time.

[cgraff]

I was talking to a dealer tech who said that they keep spare engines and transmissions in stock for warranty replacement. Apparently, the timing belt tensioner can break and when that happens, it pretty much grenades the engine and transmission.

I would say that these are another reasons to look in to Audi product, because A3 built from 2009 and up the timing belt was replaced with timing chain, and either the manual 6 speed (only front wheel drive comes with manual) or the 6 speed Stronic tranny is bullet proof, also the TFSI engines are supper efficient due to straight fuel injection system and being a Quattro is like icing on top of the cake.

All minis use timing chains. They do have issues with the timing chain tensioners failing and grenading engines.

They also have sludge issues with the 15k oil changes. Specifically the turbo N14. The vacuum pump is driven off the exhaust cam. When they sludge up the vacuum pump seizes and sheers the cam gear off the cam and throws it into the bed plate of the block and totals the engine. Afaik there is no TSB on this issue, but it does happen.

I worked on mini's for a bit in my career. I'm not impressed at all. Stick with a Audi A3 or Japanese car. The quality just isn't there with mini.

Do you know if there is a preventative fix for this? Has Mini taken steps to prevent this in the new engines?

They have a updated chain tensioner. Typically they replaced the timing cartridge (guides, chain, etc) when they do the repair.

As far as sludge... No. BMW (and a lot of other car manufacturer's) swear by the 15k oil change interval. It gets even worse if the owner of the car is too lazy to schedule a appointment and they go over 15k between oil changes. I see many BMW's that are 3-5k miles past due for their oil service's in our shop (and the other shops i have worked at).

The supercharged engines also had their fair share of issues. Crank pulley's seperating, superchargers going bad, trans issues, etc. I've never been a fan of Mini. Then again... I wouldnt own a BMW post E46 either.

The timing chain tensioner is no longer an issue on newer cars. Also this seemed to affect the N14 (07-09 Turbo) motors more.

As for the 15k oil changes, it's actually 15k-20k on the MINI. It's super long, and honestly there's a few issues here.

1. There's no oil level sensor on the newer MINIs, so you're stuck doing the dipstick check every 500-1000 miles to insure you don't run low. Remember the issues on E36 M3s...no oil level sensor and a car that consumes oil.
2. Turbo motors tend to burn more oil. So you have to check this. Also, the turbo oil supply lines have a blockage issue on the N14s as they are unshielded and this can 'cook' the oil. N18s (newer Turbos) don't have this issue.
3. Direct injection and PCV design on the N14s tended to exacerbate the oil/carbon build up. Audi/VW products also have carbon build up problems, although the newer motors seem to be less affected. Also N18s seem to be less affected as well.
4. Catastrophic engine failures seem to occur when running these motors low on oil (duh...)

This makes for some pretty simple rules of thumb:
1. Oil changes every 7.5k miles on Turbo motors
2. Check oil level every 500-750 miles
3. Try to get the later N16/N18 motors and avoid the N14s if you're not willing to keep an eye out for these things.


And as with any BMW product (or German product for that matter), avoid the first generation of anything, or the first couple years of anything, so that they iron out the bugs and do all the fixes. This is true of E90s, E46s, E36s, E34s,...etc

[RoyW]

My vote would be for the VW GTI... it's fun to drive, great handling with good acceleration (200 bhp), gets 30+ mpg, excellent interior and over fit & finish, and has been trouble free. My wife's '09 has 93K on the clock... she had a Mini Cooper S prior, but likes the GTI much better, as do I. The GTI has been in C&D's Top 10 for a few years now... if I was buying new, I'd get the Golf R

-RoyW

[L_N_Love]

My vote would be for the VW GTI... it's fun to drive, great handling with good acceleration (200 bhp), gets 30+ mpg, excellent interior and over fit & finish, and has been trouble free. My wife's '09 has 93K on the clock... she had a Mini Cooper S prior, but likes the GTI much better, as do I. The GTI has been in C&D's Top 10 for a few years now... if I was buying new, I'd get the Golf R

-RoyW

I just checked the "R" on VW's site. Impressive vehicle!

[Cory]

My crushed in '09 Jetta TDI is getting fixed on Tuesday (and should be done by the end of the month). While the dream of my car being "totalled" remained alive I considered everything from a Mini to all others economical. All fingers pointed back to the Jetta TDI.
111,000 miles and not an issue (worth noting). Plus, almost all TDI Club gurus highly suggest a 10,000 mile oil change interval which make life a bit easier.
Just a really practical car. The next tires are likely Michelin MXM4's which will be interesting to try.

[rlomba8204]

presumably in a cheaper, easier to access manner because the manufacturer presumably / hopefully has designed the car and the motor to be accessible for this service.

You would hope that, but it is typically not the case. Particularly in a FWD car. You generally have to dismantle the front of the engine to get to the TB. It's just an annoyance/inconvenience in a 528e, but (as you know) in a FWD car, the front of the engine is actually the side and the parts that have to come off are generally crammed up against the frame rail and shock tower.

Just because something is a maintenance item, doesn't mean that it is a non-issue, IMO. It's just one more thing that I have to keep track of the age of and replace periodically. A timing chain every 250k or so is a lot easier to deal with. I'm not saying I wouldn't buy a car just because it has a TB, but if I had the choice, I'd choose the chain every time.

I understand your point, it's just that a belt is not a dealbreaker for me if I otherwise like the car.

Interesting thing to note is that our last Honda with the K series motor had a chain, but at some point about a year or so ago the AC compressor disintegrated internally (known CRV issue). In any event, I had the extended Honda warranty so it was a non-issue for me (dealer billed HondaCare for a little shy of $2k because the whole AC system has to come out because of the debris). Point is that I asked the tech how the heck he would get to all of that "stuff" on the side of the motor, per your point above. He said it was actually pretty easy on most Hondas because for that type of work, and for timing belts, the front wheel on that side is removed, and then some fender shields and liners are removed and you have ready access to everything -- so it was not a big deal.

So it's not that the timing belt is wonderful -- I take your point, but on the better cars like Hondas it is not heart surgery. This is consistent with my recollection of helping a friend change a timing belt on his Prelude many years ago. He did the main work, I helped, but it wasn't a huge deal.

Final thought: you're assuming a timing chain is a 250k item. Generally, for street driven vehicles that's not a bad assumption. But even on street driven vehicles the chain tensioners and guides can fail well before that on M30s and on a car that sees track use once or twice a year, or regular autocross duty, a chain and guides with more than 150k miles is a definite risk on an M30. With an M20, you avoid that issue and you will likely be "in there" on the BMW or any other car for that matter around that same mileage to change the accessory belt(s) the water pump, and maybe even the radiator Anyway.

[B7Turbo]

Fiat Abarth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuR81oJi1oQ

[MicahO]

Fiat Abarth

My brother in law rented a 500 Sport a couple of weeks ago. No, it was not an Abarth, which is going to be a few steps up in terms of power, handling, etc. But a step up from what?

The 500 was cute as a button, though I could not have been less impressed with the car as something to drive. Tinny, buzzy, utter lack of power, it didn't want to go through a turn except slowly or maybe backwards, the multi-setting suspension seemed to range from 'poor-handling and slushy' to 'poor-handling and overly-harsh,' and the only thing in the car less sure than myself of when to shift was the transmission itself.

However, the advertising is outstanding!

[L_N_Love]

Fiat Abarth

My brother in law rented a 500 Sport a couple of weeks ago. No, it was not an Abarth, which is going to be a few steps up in terms of power, handling, etc. But a step up from what?

The 500 was cute as a button, though I could not have been less impressed with the car as something to drive. Tinny, buzzy, utter lack of power, it didn't want to go through a turn except slowly or maybe backwards, the multi-setting suspension seemed to range from 'poor-handling and slushy' to 'poor-handling and overly-harsh,' and the only thing in the car less sure than myself of when to shift was the transmission itself.

However, the advertising is outstanding!

I've also heard that they drive poorly.

[WilNJ]

The 500 was cute as a button, though I could not have been less impressed with the car as something to drive. Tinny, buzzy, utter lack of power, it didn't want to go through a turn except slowly or maybe backwards, the multi-setting suspension seemed to range from 'poor-handling and slushy' to 'poor-handling and overly-harsh,' and the only thing in the car less sure than myself of when to shift was the transmission itself.

I seem to recall that it uses electronic power steering due to a lack of space in the engine compartment. May have something to do with it's poor handling.

[Tammer in Philly]

The 500 was cute as a button, though I could not have been less impressed with the car as something to drive. Tinny, buzzy, utter lack of power, it didn't want to go through a turn except slowly or maybe backwards, the multi-setting suspension seemed to range from 'poor-handling and slushy' to 'poor-handling and overly-harsh,' and the only thing in the car less sure than myself of when to shift was the transmission itself.

I seem to recall that it uses electronic power steering due to a lack of space in the engine compartment. May have something to do with it's poor handling.

Electronic PS can be good or bad. The root of that decision is as likely to be fuel efficiency vs. packaging, but both probably play a role. Newer Minis have electric PS with no ill effects on handling.

-tammer

[tsmall07]

He said it was actually pretty easy on most Hondas because for that type of work, and for timing belts, the front wheel on that side is removed, and then some fender shields and liners are removed and you have ready access to everything -- so it was not a big deal.

It would have been nice to know that when I was replacing the alternator and serpentine belt on my sister's 2000 Accord!

[1st 5er]

He said it was actually pretty easy on most Hondas because for that type of work, and for timing belts, the front wheel on that side is removed, and then some fender shields and liners are removed and you have ready access to everything -- so it was not a big deal.

It would have been nice to know that when I was replacing the alternator and serpentine belt on my sister's 2000 Accord!

No Honda Bentley?