OT -- Another School Shooting

[davintosh]

By recognizing certain holy days -- going so far as to close entire facilities & giving employees the day off with pay for those holy days -- isn't the government in a way "putting one religion above another"? How is that different or at least less awful than a municipal government following a decades-old tradition of putting a nativity in front of a local courthouse? And how about the traditional "weekend"; we do realize where the practice of the Monday through Friday workweek came from, right? From that pesky old Judeo-Christian mindset. How can we allow this to continue?

[RangerGress]

That the President of the day was celebrating a religious holiday within his private residence is perfectly in line with Jefferson's thoughts on the matter. The fact that the private residence happens to be the White House and the use of it is provided gratis at taxpayer expense is not an indication the framers wanted that same activity to take place at all federally owned and operated buildings.

It's not a matter of "wanted to". It's a matter of knowing that the Founding Fathers explicity resented the Church of England, did they mean for the phrase "make no law respecting the establishment of religion" to be synonymous with a government that should be obsessed with insuring that not the slightest relationship exists with a Western religion at any level. I mean crazy stuff like ending a lease to the boy scouts, a Christmas tree in a Federal building (other than the WH, I guess), or there's some grave marker shaped like a cross on obscure city land so someone demands it's torn down.

I imagine lots of us were in the Boy Scouts for a while. I'm here to tell you that the Marines are a helova lot more religious than the Boy Scouts.

If I was Christian I'd feel like I was under attack too.

The anti-religious crowd is going after innocuous religious symbols that have been around for decades, in some cases centuries. That's not enforcing "make no law", that's a witch hunt. Is it so hard to just leave them be?

Religious types irritate you? Go after that bunch of whackjobs that are screwing up military funerals. Beat the ever-loving shit out of those guys. Raze their homes and salt the earth where they stood. Go with my blessing.

[Jeremy]

If I was Christian I'd feel like I was under attack too.

The Christians got most of what they got in modern times due to Communism (which was godless) and Reagan, who opened the door and let the Christian right have a seat at the Republican planning table. I don't believe it's at all wrong to start reversing that trend. Every year Christmas and Christianity in general get a little more overbearing and in my face. They get out of my face, I'm happy to stay out of theirs.

Is it so hard to imagine that while England was undoubtedly very much on their minds, that framers crafted that Amendment with more in mind than simply not establishing a US equivalent to the Church of England? Jefferson's writings prove that he, at least, had a larger goal in mind than what you're proposing.

Go after that bunch of whackjobs that are screwing up military funerals. Beat the ever-loving shit out of those guys. Raze their homes and salt the earth where they stood. Go with my blessing.

Westboro Baptist Church has promised to "demonstrate" at the funerals of the Newtown victims. Newtown is about a 40 minute drive from here. My brain has had some very un-Christian thoughts regarding the best way to deal with those assholes lately.

[867535i]

If there's a relationship between one particular religion and a government that grants them special rights or treatment, then all of the sudden there's no equality for the others. That's what I believe they were trying to get across.

As for the Boy Scouts and other examples, I agree that many rulings seem to go too far and there are also hypocrisies within the system such as the Christmas trees. I don't personally have a problem with any of that stuff but there are those that do. Some are just complainers, some feel like they're being treaded upon and some are pushing back against those that would like to teach the ten commandments in school or whatever other religious beliefs. It's a needed push back in my opinion as it keeps everything in check against those whack jobs that you mentioned. I don't know if you saw but they were actually going to picket the Newton Town saying that god was punishing them and that's why they died. Disgusting people.

Which brings me back to how this whole tangent started. Anyone saying that

Care for the mentally ill, too many guns. . .yada, yada, yada. I'm done. It's all bullshit. Diversion tactics. Nobody wants to discuss the real problem which is the undermining of God and his laws by our government....

is completely missing the boat and IMO, dismissing the lives of those kids all too easily and unwilling to have a discussion about the actual two relevant issues at hand.... Not that I'd want to after seeing him throw racial epithets around.

[shagrath]

Westboro Baptist Church has promised to "demonstrate" at the funerals of the Newtown victims. Newtown is about a 40 minute drive from here. My brain has had some very un-Christian thoughts regarding the best way to deal with those assholes lately.

I don't believe them to be a Christian group at all. True Christian's wouldn't demonstrate in that manner and say things in that manner. WBC is NOT a Christian organization or congregation, the way I see it...

[RangerGress]

Which brings me back to how this whole tangent started. Anyone saying that

Care for the mentally ill, too many guns. . .yada, yada, yada. I'm done. It's all bullshit. Diversion tactics. Nobody wants to discuss the real problem which is the undermining of God and his laws by our government....

is completely missing the boat and IMO, dismissing the lives of those kids all too easily and unwilling to have a discussion about the actual two relevant issues at hand...

I agree with you. It's a mistake for religious types to talk as if religion is the source of all morale guidance. They seem to be a little slow to understand how that idea pisses off everyone who doesn't share their outlook.

But consider this....there's an awful lot of folks out there that believe things you probably perceive as nutty. Wrist magnets, oil rubs, they are fit and good looking, warm water freezes faster than cold, little batteries have more charge than big batteries(*)...the list of nuttiness never ends.

When your perfectly nice mother-in-law insists the children need coats outside so they don't catch a cold does it raise your ire and you tell her she's a uncritical nitwit to believe such tripe, or do you just let it go? You let it go because she's a nice lady and if she want's to believe something you know to be silly, what the hell who cares. It's certainly not worth creating conflict.

She on the other hand is absolutely convinced she is right.

Now change that to religion. Your perfectly nice neighbor is deeply religious. He doesn't really talk about it around you because he figures it would be an uncomfortable conversation for the two of you. At Christmas he has some nativity scene in his yard, it's reasonably small and not garish so if it's objectionable, it's only because of what it represents. But what it represents irritates you. Do you go over and tell him that he's an uncritical nitwit, or do you just let it go? Is it worth creating conflict over?

Entirely nice folks have ideas that each of us feel are loony. Most of them would be offended if we told them so. If a religious type is foolish and states something irritating like all morality comes from a personal relationship with god, just make a joke out of it like "excuse me I must now rape and pillage with my heathen club" or something. They'll probably figure out that it was a dumb thing to say.

We choose to be upset by something. We choose to make an issue of it and create conflict. Or we can choose instead to let it go.

(*) Little batteries have more charge than big ones. This pretty obscure but in both the Marines and later in the Army it used to drive me batshit. The problem is that with few exceptions military training is awful, particularly technical training. It's all dumbed down for tiny-brains and the instructor is usually some burnout that couldn't give a shit. So all people do is memorize marginally useful crap and rarely genuinely "understand" how the basics work. Basic electricity was a poster child for this.

Otherwise entirely competent folks would routinely tell me that a little 9V battery could keep up a common piece of commo gear longer than the 6 D-cell batteries that it was designed to take. I mean WTF, over? In one hand you've got 4oz of crappy lowest bidder battery and in the other hand you've got 3lbs of crappy lowest bidder batteries, does it really make sense that the 4oz battery can sustain the load longer? I mean for god's sakes use your brain. Stories like that were endless.

People believe nutty things. People think you believe nutty things. Sometimes you can carefully try to show them that theiridea is silly, but usually it just leads to conflict.

It took me a long long time to understand that folks didn't want me to correct them. It's very important to me to be right. So if someone else corrects me, I thank them because they helped me be right. But most folks will not thank you for trying to correct them. When you see an opportunity to correct someone, unless someone is going to lose a limb or screw up their engine, just let it go. If you genuinely think that the person will profusely thank you for correcting them, do it.

A last note. I'm not saying that religious types are nuts. We all perceive our belief systems as correct. We all see all the other belief systems as wrong. Therefore everybody sees everyone that disagrees with them as misguided nuts.

The real question is.....can we get along cordially Anyway?

Note to Duke. This is not a general criticism of the military. Our military is largely composed by folks that go thru hell trying to succeed despite the crappy bureaucratic system they are stuck in. The extent of their personal sacrifices, large and small, is something the civilian world will never understand. Also, the best boss you will ever have, and the best subordinate you will ever have, will likely be former military. They grown them right.

So Duke, don't give me a ration of shit pls.

[Jeremy]

Westboro Baptist Church has promised to "demonstrate" at the funerals of the Newtown victims. Newtown is about a 40 minute drive from here. My brain has had some very un-Christian thoughts regarding the best way to deal with those assholes lately.

I don't believe them to be a Christian group at all. True Christian's wouldn't demonstrate in that manner and say things in that manner. WBC is NOT a Christian organization or congregation, the way I see it...

Oh, believe me, I don't consider them Christian at all. If the Biblical version of Hell does in fact exist, those hate-mongers are probably on the express train straight there at their Judgement.

But they consider themselves to be a Christian group, and they enjoy federal protections by labeling themselves as such. I encourage anyone who has seen what this group does at military funerals and been disgusted to write their Senator/Representative (you can do it via e-mail) and ask them to officially label this organization what it is: a hate group.

[RangerGress]

Westboro Baptist Church has promised to "demonstrate" at the funerals of the Newtown victims. Newtown is about a 40 minute drive from here. My brain has had some very un-Christian thoughts regarding the best way to deal with those assholes lately.

I don't believe them to be a Christian group at all. True Christian's wouldn't demonstrate in that manner and say things in that manner. WBC is NOT a Christian organization or congregation, the way I see it...

Oh, believe me, I don't consider them Christian at all. If the Biblical version of Hell does in fact exist, those hate-mongers are probably on the express train straight there at their Judgement.

But they consider themselves to be a Christian group, and they enjoy federal protections by labeling themselves as such. I encourage anyone who has seen what this group does at military funerals and been disgusted to write their Senator/Representative (you can do it via e-mail) and ask them to officially label this organization what it is: a hate group.

Direct action is called for. There's some actions that are just so reprehensible that the only suitable response is a whack in the nose. You just have to be very careful because they have cameras everywhere hoping that someone will hassle them and they can sue. I'm told those suits are what finances much of their operation.

What a whacked business model. Make everyone so damned angry that they can't help but take a poke at you. Then sue them.

I've heard on the down-low some interesting ways that local communities have struck back when a funeral is held in their area and the WBC came to town. I salute them.

[Jeremy]

I've heard on the down-low some interesting ways that local communities have struck back when a funeral is held in their area and the WBC came to town. I salute them.

I can tell you that plans are already afoot in that regard.

[Matt]

The WBC are a bunch of lawyers that know exactly what the law says in every jurisdiction they pull this crap.

They are lawsuit trolls. They provoke cities or people acting on behalf of the city (like cops) into doing something that WBC knows they can sue for and win.

They extract money from local governments, basically.

Phelps's daughter argued a case before the supreme court. Do these sound like church whackos to your or people who know exactly wtf they're doing ?

[WilNJ]

those hate-mongers are probably on the express train straight there at their Judgement.

We'll know tomorrow.

[RangerGress]

I've heard on the down-low some interesting ways that local communities have struck back when a funeral is held in their area and the WBC came to town. I salute them.

I can tell you that plans are already afoot in that regard.

You've made my day sir. Thank you very much.

[FastFiver]

I've heard on the down-low some interesting ways that local communities have struck back when a funeral is held in their area and the WBC came to town. I salute them.

I can tell you that plans are already afoot in that regard.

Police and Firefighters from throughout the New England area begin to "Stand The Wall" to protect Sandy Hook Funerals from WBC

[freetoride]

Are the "Patriot Guard Riders" active up there? I know the group started to protect military funerals, but I would think they would participate in this.

[Mark 88/M5 Houston]

They (Westboro wackos) weren't well received down this direction this past summer either.

Texas A&M Students Form Human Wall To Block Westboro Baptist Church Protestors From Soldier Roy Tisdale's Funeral



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/0 ... 53002.html

[Tammer in Philly]

Since there's no "therefore" i'm not sure what your point was. Certainly that's the passage the Supreme Court cited to screw up the issue. There's no way one can start from the intent of that citation and start pulling Christmas trees out of public buildings because they're called "Christ"mas trees.

You're not getting the basic point. If you read that the way I do, the way Tammer seems to, and the way the Supreme Court did, a state facility has no right to erect the trappings of any particular religion on its grounds. If you're going to try to tell me that somehow something called a "Christmas tree" isn't somehow directly tied to a certain Christian holiday, I'm not buying it and you shouldn't be trying to sell it.

Put it this way: if publicly funded facilities hadn't started putting up Nativity scenes and Christmas trees as a state sponsored thing, we wouldn't have needed a Supreme Court ruling to tell them not to. Jefferson's intent is clear. He wanted the federal government to have absolutely no say in what people did within their own private residences. Public greens, courthouses, schools, and other public areas such as that are not the place for such displays.

Actually, Jeremy, you're misunderstanding me slightly. The nativity scene or Christmas tree on the courthouse lawn doesn't bother me at all. However, if for example a Jew wants a Menorah put on the lawn, there should be one. The government cannot choose one over the other. If someone complains about the expenditure of public money on such trappings, then they should be removed or funded privately. But I see most of these things as harmless traditions and I don't think it's worth the effort or hassle or money to fight legal battles over such displays, again UNLESS they are done in a discriminatory way.

-tammer

[Tammer in Philly]

Westboro Baptist Church has promised to "demonstrate" at the funerals of the Newtown victims. Newtown is about a 40 minute drive from here. My brain has had some very un-Christian thoughts regarding the best way to deal with those assholes lately.

I don't believe them to be a Christian group at all. True Christian's wouldn't demonstrate in that manner and say things in that manner. WBC is NOT a Christian organization or congregation, the way I see it...

EDIT - I should have read ahead. Gress and Matt both pointed this out already. Anyway, given that they essentially use their "religion" as a business to steal taxpayer money, they shouldn't be classified as a tax-exempt church at all.
----

You're correct.

The WBC are the Phelps family. They own a law firm. The goal of the WBC is to get people to react to them in a way that infringes their 1st amendment rights, then they sue and win. It's always about the money.

I wish there were a hell for people like them to rot in.

-tammer

[WilNJ]

I wish there were a hell for people like them to rot in.

-tammer

I see what you did there.

[Tammer in Philly]

I wish there were a hell for people like them to rot in.

-tammer

I see what you did there.

Hey, not believing the religious stuff does remove some comforting answers. I get by.

[oldskool]

I wish there were a hell for people like them to rot in.

-tammer

I see what you did there.

Oh God. There IS good and evil? Moral balance? When was that instilled? Who are we to judge how people make a living?

[Duke]

The WBC are the Phelps family. They own a law firm. The goal of the WBC is to get people to react to them in a way that infringes their 1st amendment rights, then they sue and win. It's always about the money.

Their "church" compound is in Topeka, a short distance from here. A very short flight too. Have often wondered what would happen if I was flying over in a small aircraft and a 45lb plate happen to "accidentally" fall out of the airplane and go right through their roof. Would be a damn shame I am sure. Could even happen on a Sunday.

What would the velocity be of a 45lb plate be from 2000'?

[Tammer in Philly]

The WBC are the Phelps family. They own a law firm. The goal of the WBC is to get people to react to them in a way that infringes their 1st amendment rights, then they sue and win. It's always about the money.

Their "church" compound is in Topeka, a short distance from here. A very short flight too. Have often wondered what would happen if I was flying over in a small aircraft and a 45lb plate happen to "accidentally" fall out of the airplane and go right through their roof. Would be a damn shame I am sure. Could even happen on a Sunday.

What would the velocity be of a 45lb plate be from 2000'?

Depends on the shape and distribution of the mass within it. That will determine the orientation of the fall and therefore the cross sectional area, from which you can compute drag and determine if it will reach terminal velocity.

-tammer

[Tammer in Philly]

I wish there were a hell for people like them to rot in.

-tammer

I see what you did there.

Oh God. There IS good and evil? Moral balance? When was that instilled? Who are we to judge how people make a living?

There were moral judgements before Christianity, and there will be after. Part of that is because social creatures can't function without a code for how to behave within a group. That's just evolutionary pressure at work. It's also why humans are so good at not applying the same morals they use within their own group to others they identify as different; that's rooted in competition for resources and the danger of the unknown (another tribe, wildlife, other potential threats).

Increasing the pool that one considers his own "tribe" is the basis for most societal progress and improving the overall ability of individuals to contribute to society, which is good for everyone.

Don't need hell to scare you into acting right if you just think about what happens if most people stop acting right.

-tammer

[WilNJ]

There were moral judgements before religion, and there will be after.

-tammer

FTFY

Telling people they'd rot in a fiery afterlife if they didn't obey made them easier to control.

[Duke]

Depends on the shape and distribution of the mass within it. That will determine the orientation of the fall and therefore the cross sectional area, from which you can compute drag and determine if it will reach terminal velocity.

Think a 65lb dumbbell would be more effective of an "accident".

[Tammer in Philly]

Depends on the shape and distribution of the mass within it. That will determine the orientation of the fall and therefore the cross sectional area, from which you can compute drag and determine if it will reach terminal velocity.

Think a 65lb dumbbell would be more effective of an "accident".

Depends on how much roof material it could bring down with it. Not that I advocate such a thing.

-tammer

[Tammer in Philly]

There were moral judgements before religion, and there will be after.

-tammer

FTFY

Telling people they'd rot in a fiery afterlife if they didn't obey made them easier to control.

My verbiage was chosen specifically for the person I quoted. My turban made me do it.

[Duke]

Depends on how much roof material it could bring down with it.

Only one way to find out

[WilNJ]

Depends on the shape and distribution of the mass within it. That will determine the orientation of the fall and therefore the cross sectional area, from which you can compute drag and determine if it will reach terminal velocity.

Think a 65lb dumbbell would be more effective of an "accident".

Well, who goes around with just (1) dumbell in their aircraft? Now a whole rack, say like this



I'm sure people transport those around all the time, not likely very stable in tight maneuvering either.

[Duke]

I'm sure people transport those around all the time, not likely very stable in tight maneuvering either.

Would need a partner to help with that big of an "accident", could take several passes at night and thus multiple "accidents".