E12 M535i was hit while parked in my driveway. *OLD THREAD*

[Adam W in MN]

I'm not sure what guides the adjustor in terms of the title, but you're only a $1000 apart on how much they're writing a check for.

I would collect all the comps and evidence that point to the value of the car in restored condition with a clean title and prove how reasonable you're being reasonable in what you're looking for.

I think that's a great point as well. FWIW, I have my E12 M535i insured for $20K stated value (it's a stretch, but I did fax them receipts from all the work I've done in 7+ years plus the purchase price of the car).

[C.R. Krieger]

Sorry to say, but as others have stated this will take some effort to fight them. Also I didn't think of the garage stipulation for the collector insurance but I would guess that is correct and will disqualify you (my policy stipulates the same thing).

Waitaminnit, folks! This policy exclusion only affects a settlement with HIS company, not somebody else's company! THEY can't require that he adhere to HIS company's exclusions! Their policyholder damaged a $6000 car, whether it was garaged or not.

Use the Polaris silver e12 M535i that was on bring a trailer and eBay (Philippe Juneau's car in FL) which was bid into the mid teens. Look at it on a positive note; you don't need it to get to work every day and you can wait a long time for them to see your side of this and be a pain in their ass.

Also don't forget cars for sale on mobile.de as comps. If it has a 4145xxx vin, tell them it is game.

These are great comps (above). The company has already recognized that the market for E12s is so small that it's at least national (by looking clear to PA for a not-very-comparable). Now you need to convince them that it's so small that it's GLOBAL. That's not much of a stretch, considering that the folks in the US that are really interested in these cars are regularly shopping in Europe.

Go back to the basics. Figure out how much you need to be made whole (not to get a whole $6K out of the car). Put it together with the comparables above and ask for that (plus a small cushion so they can push back a little and still make a reasonable settlement offer to you). Be firm but reasonable, making it clear that you can wait (even if it kills you). There's no way an insurer wants to sit on a claim for most of 2 years (tort claims SoL in AZ) over less than $5000. In the overall scheme of things for them, this isn't really much of a claim.

[rlomba8204]

Sorry to say, but as others have stated this will take some effort to fight them. Also I didn't think of the garage stipulation for the collector insurance but I would guess that is correct and will disqualify you (my policy stipulates the same thing).

Waitaminnit, folks! This policy exclusion only affects a settlement with HIS company, not somebody else's company! THEY can't require that he adhere to HIS company's exclusions! Their policyholder damaged a $6000 car, whether it was garaged or not.

C.R., you are 100% right, but the point I originally made goes to the fact that State Farm likely knows why Chris won't go through his insurance, and they will use that as leverage to some degree. That was the only point. They are still on the hook, and they know it, question is how much, obviously.

Go back to the basics. Figure out how much you need to be made whole (not to get a whole $6K out of the car). Put it together with the comparables above and ask for that (plus a small cushion so they can push back a little and still make a reasonable settlement offer to you). Be firm but reasonable, making it clear that you can wait (even if it kills you). There's no way an insurer wants to sit on a claim for most of 2 years (tort claims SoL in AZ) over less than $5000. In the overall scheme of things for them, this isn't really much of a claim.

Very sound advice.

[clangpap]

Yes...your project has hit the wall. If you continue to disassemble the car, they see it as "parts"...not a car.
I'm not an expert, but I've been shafted by insurance companies before...if you render it to "parts" (not driveable) too soon, you run a risk of a "re-assesment"..I wouldn't, but you have a project to consider.

This comment doesn't ring true with me. I am unaware of any disputed insurance claim, personal or corporate, where the insured was required to leave the damage untouched until the claim was settled. Photos have been taken of the car's condition at the time of the damage, liability has been admitted (their offer), only the amount needs to be negotiated.

I am happy to be proved wrong by someone who is an expert in these matters, but no one leaves their house exposed to the elements while they fight about whether their claim is "covered", no company leaves production equipment unrepaired while fighting an insurance claim. I would argue that you have a requirement to mitigate your damage and if leaving it unrepaired could lead to additional repair cost due to deterioration, they could be justified in only paying for damage immediately caused. Anyone here in the auto insurance business?

This will take time Chris, I had to go to litigation (house insurance) once and insurance companies move slowly as they hope you will give up or find the legal bills you are stacking up too onerous to continue - it was almost 3 years from claim to settlement (went through discovery but settled before going to court). Hopefully you will not need to go there as you never recover all your legal fees, so the amount in dispute needs to be large. On balance that also applies to them as they also rack up legal fees, so settlement is easier and cheaper.

Craig

[TSMacNeil]

Yes...your project has hit the wall. If you continue to disassemble the car, they see it as "parts"...not a car.
I'm not an expert, but I've been shafted by insurance companies before...if you render it to "parts" (not driveable) too soon, you run a risk of a "re-assesment"..I wouldn't, but you have a project to consider.

This comment doesn't ring true with me. I am unaware of any disputed insurance claim, personal or corporate, where the insured was required to leave the damage untouched until the claim was settled. Photos have been taken of the car's condition at the time of the damage, liability has been admitted (their offer), only the amount needs to be negotiated.

I am happy to be proved wrong by someone who is an expert in these matters, but no one leaves their house exposed to the elements while they fight about whether their claim is "covered", no company leaves production equipment unrepaired while fighting an insurance claim. I would argue that you have a requirement to mitigate your damage and if leaving it unrepaired could lead to additional repair cost due to deterioration, they could be justified in only paying for damage immediately caused. Anyone here in the auto insurance business?

This will take time Chris, I had to go to litigation (house insurance) once and insurance companies move slowly as they hope you will give up or find the legal bills you are stacking up too onerous to continue - it was almost 3 years from claim to settlement (went through discovery but settled before going to court). Hopefully you will not need to go there as you never recover all your legal fees, so the amount in dispute needs to be large. On balance that also applies to them as they also rack up legal fees, so settlement is easier and cheaper.

Craig

My comment is based on past experience with claims specialists while in the midst of a claim to repair the ragtop on my old e30 that was vandalized. I'll spare the details, but I was arguing with them over a low-ball offer insisting they re-evaluate. They too, had already taken their photos. When they came out a second time, the car was in a stage of disassembly...they took advantage of that.
Maybe things have changed, as I said, I'm no expert...but I have been stiffed in very similar circumstances.

[Tammer in Philly]

They are, btw, guessing you don't want to go through your insurer because I am guessing that with a collectible policy the car had to be in the garage and it wouldn't have been damaged if it were in fact in the garage. I am not criticizing you, I am telling you why they are doing what they are doing, or at least one reason for so doing so you understand the limits to your leverage. But you still do have leverage. Their policyholder drove recklessly onto your property. Is there other property damage you can add into the claim? Get an estimate from a landscaper, for example, for the damage to the lawn, shrubs, etc. I know it sounds like BS, but they can't beat something with nothing.

This may or may not be true. When I looked into agreed-value policies on my M5, the term "garaged" was in the document, but the insurer stated that indoor storage wasn't specifically required. There's plenty of wiggle-room there. The car can be driven and parked outside, even overnight, so long as it's "principally garaged" at an address with indoor storage available.

-tammer

[WH]

Chris,

I've quickly read much of this thread. It seems to me you need to think about what your end goal is in this matter (how much $$ you really want) and try to obtain a reasonable figure close to that and move on with your life.

Top end value for your car assembled in it's purchased condition might have been $6K, bottom as it sits now dismantled $3K? You can spend months dickering with insurance companies trying to get a little more $$ here and there, but what is your time worth? Also how much is this holding up your project? They offered $1K which seems a bit low and may cost you more than that to fix the damage done to the car. Make a counter offer of what you want ($1500-$1800 ?), and you keep the car with no title branding. They may just go for it to end the matter. If not, let your insurance company fight for you to get something close to what you want.

I'm in the middle of negotiations for selling my 1981 M535i. I could re-post my CL ad this week if the insurance needs a comparison for your car. That way you can print it out and use it in negotiations.

WH

[Tammer in Philly]

I'm in the middle of negotiations for selling my 1981 M535i. I could re-post my CL ad this week if the insurance needs a comparison for your car. That way you can print it out and use it in negotiations.

WH

Even better, fax him the notarized bill of sale (names deleted) when it's done.

-tammer

[Mike in Seattle]

Chris,

Unfortunately this is the way insurance companies handle this. They low ball you with their first offer and hope you accept it. Do your homework, send them as much info as you can about the M535i and some comps and they will probably come closer to what you want within a few days.

When my 1984 528e was stolen and totalled, they offered me around $1200 for it. Realistically that is all it was really worth. It was kind of a beater, but I had spent a lot of time and money on the car and it had some pretty nice parts on the car. I sent them 3 comps from much nicer cars than mine and they finally came around and offered me $2800 for my car, plus I could buy my car back for $400. Done deal!

It is all just a game. just be ready to play!

[TSMacNeil]

This is all actually very good advice.
Chris: It boils down to this, nobody here wants to see you get screwed by a "tickler" offer by some insurance company. It is surely an insult to all of us enthusiasts to have some jackwagon say your M535i is a $1000 car. We all know it to not be true. At the end of the day it really is a case of how you feel about your project timeline.
I thought about this last night some after I signed off...
Awhile back during your carpet-quest, you were threatening to throw a tarp over the car and step back...remember?

You never did.

That tells me you want to keep moving forward and stay on pace for this restoration...
If thats still the case, then make a firm counter-offer with a veiled threat of involving counsel, and then take the $$ and press on.
I know thats a 180 for me on this, but after thinking on it I think that suits your personal agenda far better.

-Tim

[wkohler]

Thanks for all the help so far. Frank, I appreciate that offer and would love to take you up on it if you don't mind.

I received another fax from state farm today. Same as yesterday, so I faxed back a short letter saying their comp was unacceptable and explained why. I put a list of all supporting documentation. Then sent their comp, the two Adam posted with English translations, the BaT listing, the writeup from the M registry, the list of Vin ranges for US cars, showing total production of '81 being about 13k with more than 50% being automatics and lastly the pricing guide from M535i.org, which would put my car in he $5-10k range, albeit at the low end.

We'll see what he says. I didn't send every last thing. Figure I need to hang onto some things.

[TSMacNeil]

Thanks for all the help so far. Frank, I appreciate that offer and would love to take you up on it if you don't mind.

I received another fax from state farm today. Same as yesterday, so I faxed back a short letter saying their comp was unacceptable and explained why. I put a list of all supporting documentation. Then sent their comp, the two Adam posted with English translations, the BaT listing, the writeup from the M registry, the list of Vin ranges for US cars, showing total production of '81 being about 13k with more than 50% being automatics and lastly the pricing guide from M535i.org, which would put my car in he $5-10k range, albeit at the low end.

We'll see what he says. I didn't send every last thing. Figure I need to hang onto some things.

Very good. It is important strategerie to appear to have an endless supply of reasons why their offer is low...so you should hit them hard (as you did) and then dole it out slowly as though you shouldn't need to. I think a hybrid amalgom of all this advice would be best.

Hit them as you did. Get Franks stuff..(hold a little in reserve)
then offer a counter you can sleep with while eluding to a call to your lawyer...see what happens.

We all want you to prevail in this...

[wkohler]

As far as my policy goes, they stipulated the car must be kept in a fully enclosed and locked garage. Even though I'd think they'd understand having the car out for the night was a safety issue, I do not wish to take the risk. While I could go through them, I've dealt with other drivers insurance before, never once using mine. It just throws another's wrench into this, but as stated before, they accepted liability for my car. Just need to get the values figured.

Tim, I understand what you're saying. I've made such tremendous progress over the last two months and removing gruesome airdam got me excited to get the car stripped down. I am going to do what it takes to not screw this up, though.

[TSMacNeil]

OK...thats my first choice. I was concerned that you may blow a gasket over the chess-game though. If you're ok with slowing down, I really believe you will come out better.

Do what you are comfortable with...and make them do what's right by that car.

[lmc337]

And when you counter their low ball counter, raise the price $500 each time from the original request... after all, now you are doing his job for him and should be duly compensated.

[TSMacNeil]

And when you counter their low ball counter, raise the price $500 each time from the original request... after all, now you are doing his job for him and should be duly compensated.

I have always liked you Lee...

now I know why...

[lmc337]

I have always liked you Lee...

now I know why...

Thanks - right back atcha slick -
been following this since it happened, and for the 'insured' to have done that damage, he was clearly reckless and should have his driving privileges revoked - most likely since he fled, he'll get some minor careless driving not reckless driving charge, no points, and basically off scott free...
At least if the insurance payout is high enough, the cost of maintaining insurance will hopefully be prohibitive.

Then again, I'm a bullheaded sonofabitch that would argue straight faced with the adjuster that the kid knocked the paint off to the primer, flung the perfect seats into the house left the carpet hanging in the garage to dry... And the wallpaper pic Chris referenced as the childhood inspiration was the very car sitting in the current condition taken just days prior - full $6k value and a clean title or bust!!!

[SD45T-2]

Chris, Can you sue the kid who hit you?

[C.R. Krieger]

Chris, Can you sue the kid who hit you?

Not directly, if he is represented through his insurance company.

Edit: I was incorrect. You can sue him, but you'll end up litigating against his insurance company because they're bound to defend him. It isn't a slam-dunk small claims case against a defenseless kid, so you'd have to hire counsel. At that point, the lawyers will make more than anybody in the case. That's why my recommendation is to threaten litigation; not to plan on it.

[ScottWL38]

Many years ago (~20 years) a friend of mine (who is also a mechanic) was in his Bavaria when it was rear ended. The adjuster, prior to coming to see the damage, stated, "A 20 year old BMW? It's totaled." Well, it happened to be mint, with a huge motor and lots of neat doo dads. He asked the adjuster to come see it. He then got the requisite low ball offer. He declined. They sent him a check. He returned it. After about 6 weeks of this, they gave him a semi-decent offer. He then mentioned that the Bav was his driver and he was having to rent a car to get around. At $25/day the total was at $1050 and climbing. They settled on the true repair amount that day minus the rental car. Oh, the rental car was his "other car" and was in his company's name so he was renting it to himself.

Continued good luck. They like to try to wear you down and get you to the point where you'll just take a low offer to be done with it. In this case, patience is truly a virtue.

Oh, I've always liked Lee, too.

[bmwfreak]

First of all Chris I wish you the Best here in dealing wih the worst insurance company that exists, every dealing I have had with them both personal & professional have been the worst.
I would not give up, nor let them devalue your car in any way.

I just recently had my 528e repaired because of an accident, by no means is it a m535i, the insurance company didnt even bat an eye about repairing it, I would hope that they would do the same. I would adopt a single mantra everytime I spoke to the adjuster " your insured crossed at least 2 other peoples yards before destroying the honda next door then damaging my rare car that is in process of restoration"
Any offer short of fixing your car is not open for negotiation in my mind, fix it or pony up another m535i in like condition and all will be good, just my 2 cents.

[lmc337]

And finish the quote above with the same question: "how fast was he traveling, and how does he explain coming to rest in my driveway?"

Thanks Scott, don't know where all the love for me is coming from in this thread, but its mutual and appreciated

[alpinacsi]

Has anything been said about the the property damage other than the e12?

[wkohler]

They're aware of it. It was shown to the adjuster. No mention so far. It Will come up.

[wkohler]

Received this from Phil today:

Chris,

Reviewed your email, we would not use comparables from overseas the fact is that the vehicle if it was on the market would be in the U.S. and Not in Germany, Audutex has determine that the Comparable vehicle is acceptable, we do not determine that at state farm we rely on an evaluation company to do that. As for the review of the Price guide that you sent me, your vehicle would be considered in Poor condition Based on the

Photos I have in the claim most of the interior was missing, the dash wash cracked and in very poor the shifter and it components were in bad shape condition wise. Paint was in poor condition, many panel will in rust and this was per the notes sent to me by estimator who wrote your estimate. Based on the information I received and the information I can see in the Photos. I would rate the condition of this Vehicle Poor and per page 16 of your faxed paper work it would rate a value up to $2,000. The Base price we came up with is $1,440. After taxes and title fees. The value we settled with to buy the vehicle from you is $1,599.67. unless you have more information than what has been provide to our estimation in the way of receipts for a/m items that have been done to the vehicle this is the settlement that we will are willing to pay for your vehicle.

Please feel free to call back and discuss this with us.

Sincerely,

Phil

[TSMacNeil]

Time for the litigation threat. Further, he is well aware that "collectible" cars ARE sold to an international audience...

This is the part where they test your resolve. And this is the proper time to illuminate them that you don't rely on this car for daily driving and are prepared to litigate for a satisfactory result. Their client was speeding and operating recklessly enough to plow through 2 lawns, a car, a hedge, and (in their words) total your collectible and uber-rare BMW.

This is their problem (thanks to their reckless customer) not yours...

Rule 1 of negotiating: the first to blink, loses.

Don't you dare blink.

[Snakeyestx]

Considered legal action against the policy holder for the proper amount of compensation?

[wkohler]

Considered legal action against the policy holder for the proper amount of compensation?

Yeah, small claims limit is $2500 in AZ, and I'd have to sue State Farm. If I could get the $2500, I'd be happy, but I'll keep working with them for a while. My timeline is destroyed anyway, so what's another year now?

[WilNJ]

Rule 1 of negotiating: the first to blink, loses.

Don't you dare blink.

Wrong, Rule #1 is what will allow both parties to move on satisfied.

I would start with what does it take to ensure that the title stays clean because even if the insurer hands Chris the $6k in Chris' agreed value policy, Chris loses a lot more than the cash.

[wkohler]

Rule 1 of negotiating: the first to blink, loses.

Don't you dare blink.

Wrong, Rule #1 is what will allow both parties to move on satisfied.

I would start with what does it take to ensure that the title stays clean because even if the insurer hands Chris the $6k in Chris' agreed value policy, Chris loses a lot more than the cash.

That's precisely the reason I told them that there is no way the title will change state. If I were to take even the whole $6k now and keep the car, upon completion, I'd probably lose $10k or more in value, if I even decided to finish it.

I'm working on a response to his e-mail right now.