Rich Euro M5 wrote:This isn't true regardless of who you have health insurance with. You always have the choice to seek care out of network, however that choice will cost you more out of pocket. I've personally made the choice on a couple of occassions because I want the best care available, and I'm willing to pay for it. As far as a universal government healthcare plan is concerned, I've already endured it. I was a Army brat and also spent 6 years in the USAF. If the civilian socialist equivalent is as bad as what I endured for nearly 18 years, I don't want it.Tammer in Philly wrote:[As for doctor choice, most private insurers (what we would all be on with McCain's plan, unless you already have workplace insurance) do select what doctors you can see. .
-tammer
Our neighbors to the north, Canada, has socialized healthcare. My understanding is you can wait months to get access to basic diagnostic procedures and treatments, while in the US you have almost immediate access t the same treatment. There are plenty of stories that have been told by people who paid out of pocket for treatment in the US, that wouldn't be here today if they waited for treatment in Canada. At M. D. Anderson we treat patients from all over the world. Many of these patients have access to some form of socialist healthcare system, but either treatment isn't available, they've been rejected due to a government cost benefit ratio, or they would have possibly died waiting in line. So instead they often times pay out of their own pocket for treatment in the US.
Although there are many things about the our healthcare system I don't agree with, or care for, the pharmaceutical companies in particular. I still believe we have the best healthcare system in the world.
Rich
Thoughts on the lady from Alaska
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rlomba8204
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Mark-
Well said. The problem is that government sponsored care is better than the alternative (no insurance) if that is the situation that you happen to be in. Hence the back and forth.
The best solution to address the uninsured is basically the following:
-- eliminate the tax code provisions favoring employer provided insurance (this causes a lot of the pricing discrepancy between group and individual plans);
-- eliminate state by state regulation of health insurance, and eliminate any state law requirements mandating that certain procedures / drugs / conditions must be covered. This will cause a national market in health insurance to form, and consumers will be better off. The elimination of "plan minimums" will drive down costs, and discourage what I call "Cadillac plans" that effectively isolate consumers from the costs of their health care choices. In a world with finite dollars -- this will always be the case -- you need to control costs and the only way to effectively do that is to make people feel the consequences of their respective choices.
-- continue to offer tax advantaged savings accounts for medical needs.
-- as the dust settles, adjust Medicaid / Medicare as necessary to pick up those who will inevitably slip through the cracks.
My parents were always self employed, so I am fully aware of the challenges that individuals and small businesses have when they need to buy health insurance. Moreover, there have been times early in my adult life when I was uninsured and had to pay for expensive medical care myself. It's very eye opening, trust me. That being said, nationalizing health care is the equivalent of cutting off your foot in response to a badly broken toe. There are better ways to deal with it.
Well said. The problem is that government sponsored care is better than the alternative (no insurance) if that is the situation that you happen to be in. Hence the back and forth.
The best solution to address the uninsured is basically the following:
-- eliminate the tax code provisions favoring employer provided insurance (this causes a lot of the pricing discrepancy between group and individual plans);
-- eliminate state by state regulation of health insurance, and eliminate any state law requirements mandating that certain procedures / drugs / conditions must be covered. This will cause a national market in health insurance to form, and consumers will be better off. The elimination of "plan minimums" will drive down costs, and discourage what I call "Cadillac plans" that effectively isolate consumers from the costs of their health care choices. In a world with finite dollars -- this will always be the case -- you need to control costs and the only way to effectively do that is to make people feel the consequences of their respective choices.
-- continue to offer tax advantaged savings accounts for medical needs.
-- as the dust settles, adjust Medicaid / Medicare as necessary to pick up those who will inevitably slip through the cracks.
My parents were always self employed, so I am fully aware of the challenges that individuals and small businesses have when they need to buy health insurance. Moreover, there have been times early in my adult life when I was uninsured and had to pay for expensive medical care myself. It's very eye opening, trust me. That being said, nationalizing health care is the equivalent of cutting off your foot in response to a badly broken toe. There are better ways to deal with it.
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DOLLY SPRINT
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Jan 10, 2008
- Location: Northampton, MA
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The New American had a very good article explaining the various government health care plans in western countries including how they're failing.
Examining Healthcare
Written by Alex Newman
Tuesday, 02 September 2008
Americans who want national healthcare should examine the results where it has already been tried.
The American medical system is roundly acknowledged as being broken. Costs are increasing steadily, to the point where many middle-class Americans cannot afford health insurance. Wait times in emergency rooms are becoming multiple-hour exercises in patience. Illegal immigrants flock to this country to get free medical care while citizens who are between jobs often do without. Doctors who accept Medicare and Medicaid (about 15 percent don't accept Medicaid and 20 percent don't take new Medicaid patients) actually lose money because the government paperwork is time consuming and government reimbursements for care are low. The number of Medicaid recipients is burgeoning, and people with health insurance are picking up much of the tab for those without.
The situation is not expected to get better soon. Recent remarks by Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke are being cited by the National Center for Policy Analysis as proof that the healthcare situation in America will soon be "unsustainable." Bernanke said that healthcare spending will continue to be the largest component of overall consumer spending and is expected to keep rising. Also cited in the article by Ed Thomas was health economist Devon Herrick, who says medical spending and price increases are "rising exponentially more than national income or the rate of inflation." The problems seem so complex as to be insurmountable.
Call for Change
The discouraging disrepair of our medical system is prompting Americans to call for change - any change that might work to lower costs for that individual or improve service. According to Gallup polls conducted in 2007, about 94 percent of Americans favor giving small businesses tax breaks to buy their employees private insurance. Others support the creation of a "national healthcare system." Another popular proposal would limit the amount paid out in malpractice suits - 69 percent of Americans surveyed support that idea. In a press release about the polls entitled "Any Healthcare Reform Plan Will Do for Americans," the general sentiment seems to be that something must be done, but that there are no clear solutions.
Actually, because most of the proposed solutions - particularly the many variants of socialized medical care - have been tried somewhere in the world and found wanting, the true solution is becoming very clear: get government out of medical care. Such a statement probably sounds odd to many Americans, who have been led to believe that market failures and corporate and physician greed are the causes of our country's current healthcare woes. But few beliefs could be further from the truth.
It is a common misconception that the United States has a "free-market" system. As Dr. Jane Orient, the executive director of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS), pointed out in her January 8, 2007 article in TNA entitled "Fractured Healthcare": "Government already pays about half of all medical bills" and controls access to healthcare with over "100,000 pages of regulation." Add to that the fact that even routine doctor visits are often covered by health insurance (insurance that limits the doctors whom one may visit and the terms of access) and the idea that the United States has a free market - where consumers have choices and can choose their doctors and level of care - is laughable. The solutions become clear when one analyzes what has worked elsewhere in the world and what has not.
Government Medicine
On the other side of the big pond, Europeans have been experimenting with varying degrees of socialized medicine for over a century. They have tried every idea to keep the socialist systems functioning, but they are failing. In fact, socialized medicine is failing everywhere. For instance, wait lists in non-European countries with socialized medical care, like Canada and New Zealand, have become so long that many patients die waiting for necessary care.
A 2004 article in the New Zealand Herald tells the story of one gastroenterologist with 458 patients on his waiting list, 180 of whom were still waiting on a definite time for treatment. According to the story, "The hospital was trying to deal with the most urgent cases first. Less urgent cases were being pushed further down the list." Deciding on patient priority was difficult, leaving the doctor in quite a bind. "In an ideal world I would see the patients and then decide what to do," he said.
Canada is facing similar problems. A short documentary film by Free Market Cure illustrates the consequences of government medicine. The film's segment entitled "Two Women" documents the medical stories of two patients - one woman needed an urgent surgery to save her bladder, and another patient "needed" a sex-change operation. The woman needing the bladder surgery was told she would have to wait more than three years for her operation. Also, she was told that, as a Canadian citizen, she would not be allowed to pay for the surgery out of her own pocket in order to move up the date of the surgery. During her interminable wait, she finally had to have her bladder removed to save her life. The other patient was well-received by the Ontario health minister who promised to cover the surgery before taking office. "I believe God wanted me to be a woman but the angel got the directions wrong," the "trans-sexual" person explained.
Similar stories abound in countries with socialized medicine because government bureaucrats pick and choose which types of surgeries and care will get funding.
As the flaws become more apparent, and with governments rationing medical care, many people in socialized countries are demanding change - and they have been getting some change that works. In an article in the Journal of Health Politics, Policy and Law, Hans Maarse analyzed eight countries and their experiences with the increasing privatization of healthcare. "The growth of the public fraction in health care spending has come to an end since the 1980s, and in a few countries the private fraction even increased substantially," he noted. And according to the International Association of Health Policy, "For at least two decades European health care systems have experienced both structural adjustment and market-oriented reform policies. They are aimed at reducing costs and increase efficiency of health care financing and provision by employing privatisation and marketisation strategies."
In the Netherlands prior to 2006, government was heavily involved in medical services. According to Claire Daley and James Gubb in an article published by the CIVITAS Institute for the Study of Civil Society in 2007, "Recent reforms were introduced in response to a number of problems ... a two-tier system of private health insurance for the rich and state coverage for the rest, inefficient and complex bureaucracy, lengthy waiting lists and a lack of patient-focus." In 2006, the Netherlands saw reforms that, although still socialized to the extent that it attempts to provide healthcare to everyone through the use of government subsidies, is all provided by private companies. In a 2007 Wall Street Journal article, Gautam Naik said: "The Netherlands is using competition and a small dose of regulation to pursue what many in the U.S. hunger to achieve: health insurance for everyone, coupled with a tighter lid on costs." And this has improved care and lowered costs because the system is less socialized and more competitive than before. According to Naik's article, "Waiting lists are shrinking, and private health insurers are coming up with innovative ways to care for the sick."
Policy analysts Wynand P.M.M. van de Ven and Frederik T. Schut in a 2008 article published in Health Affairs tell how the system operates: "Since 2006 all Dutch citizens have to buy standardized individual health insurance coverage from a private insurer. Consumers have an annual choice among insurers, and insurers can selectively contract or integrate with health care providers. Subsidies make health insurance affordable for everyone. A Risk Equalization Fund compensates insurers for enrollees with predictably high medical expenses. The reform is a work in progress. So far the emphasis has been on the health insurance market. The challenge is now to successfully reform the market for the provision of health care."
The Dutch government even set up a website "where consumers can compare all insurers with respect to price, services, consumer satisfaction, and supplemental insurance, and compare hospitals on different sets of performance indicators." Though the U.S. government has no constitutional authority to be involved in medical care, state governments could create similar websites to encourage competition amongst doctors and insurance companies to drive down costs. The current Dutch system is considered an improvement over the previous approach, but many still believe it could be much improved with further separation of medicine and state.
Read the complete article
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DOLLY SPRINT
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In my opinion which is not worth much these days, the best solution probably lies somewhere in between the two systems.
Cheers
Mark
Cheers
Mark
Last edited by DOLLY SPRINT on Sep 23, 2008 3:57 PM, edited 1 time in total.
If we replaced TSA &FEMA along with the entire Patriot Act employee list, Chertoff's salary, let the FBI & CIA do their jobs (including black ops) we could damn near provide basic health care for those that qualify.
We could replace an entire level of beaurarcy which is not necessary but was laid on by the adminstration acting on the fears of the public, for the adminstration & friends benefit.
This guy and his croonies have got to go, he sure as hell is not his father and his deals desperately need to be unwound.
Doug
We could replace an entire level of beaurarcy which is not necessary but was laid on by the adminstration acting on the fears of the public, for the adminstration & friends benefit.
This guy and his croonies have got to go, he sure as hell is not his father and his deals desperately need to be unwound.
Doug
Whoa. Did you just type that? Thank you! Btw, don't look at ol' HW as some kind of saint.w0014170 wrote:If we replaced TSA &FEMA along with the entire Patriot Act employee list, Chertoff's salary, let the FBI & CIA do their jobs (including black ops) we could damn near provide basic health care for those that qualify.
We could replace an entire level of beaurarcy which is not necessary but was laid on by the adminstration acting on the fears of the public, for the adminstration & friends benefit.
This guy and his croonies have got to go, he sure as hell is not his father and his deals desperately need to be unwound.
Doug
FastFiver wrote:Whoa. Did you just type that? Thank you! Btw, don't look at ol' HW as some kind of saint.w0014170 wrote:If we replaced TSA &FEMA along with the entire Patriot Act employee list, Chertoff's salary, let the FBI & CIA do their jobs (including black ops) we could damn near provide basic health care for those that qualify.
We could replace an entire level of beaurarcy which is not necessary but was laid on by the adminstration acting on the fears of the public, for the adminstration & friends benefit.
This guy and his croonies have got to go, he sure as hell is not his father and his deals desperately need to be unwound.
Doug
Don't thank me, if the other idiots get in the only change will be a devastating shift towards global weakness, more layers of give aways and the attempted re-distribution of wealth once again by taxation. A twenty year loser and a smooth talker is no bargin either, just another set of problems.

