Embassy attacks

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Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

Murfinator wrote:Muslims HATE the United States. Period. They envy our high standard of living and our freedoms. They primarily hate our decadence and moral decay exemplified by Hollywood which provides them a narrow view of our culture. There is a tangible element of self loathing within many countries because our greatness makes them feel all the more insignificant and backward. How would you feel if a military force from a foreign country entered your country and in a weekend overthrew the dictator you were too lazy, disorganized or cowardly to dispatch yourself? How would you feel if ships of a foreign navy, any one of which possessing adequate firepower to turn your entire country into a parking lot in five minutes flat was cruising within sight of the coast? The term: moderate Muslim is an oxymoron. Read the Koran. The term radical Islam does not require the adjective. Muslims who preach peace and acceptance of other religions are either lying (a policy expounded positively in the Koran) or do not comprehend the doctrine of their own religion.
Thank you, Murf, for so directly and honestly demonstrating what most of us have known regarding how most GOP views are based in utter ignorance and bigotry.

In case you have any interest in learning what the Muslims who live around you are like, here's a good snapshot: http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

But I doubt you'll ever learn anything. Here's a newsflash: the US isn't perfect, we don't make people from other nations quiver in fear or self-loathing, and your kind of self-aggrandizement is exactly the type of attitude that makes those who do hate us, hate us. Maybe you should get out in the world and meet some Muslims--if you're willing to risk your insular, ignorant view of the world being challenged. The Muslims I know are better educated than average, hold great jobs, and are great members of their communities, active in local charities and in their children's lives.

Here's a slight modification of a quote that seems to mirror your thoughts on Muslims:
The fable of the “decent Muslim” is not a fable that has been handed down by our people and therefore something with educational value, but rather it is a shameless lie designed to lull the host people to sleep and appeal to hysterical weaklings.

This Muslim method has undoubtedly had some success in the past, and also works today in countries and peoples with democratic foundations that have given themselves over to Muslim control. However, outside of a tiny group of intellectual know-it-alls, no reasonable person would want to say “decent” and “Muslim” in the same breath ... [Your behavior] conceals your true intentions from those blinded circles who see in Islam a different ideal than the will to totally control the world. The “poor Muslims” hope that once they have torn apart the peoples of the world, putting them at the service of the Muslims, they will be able to assure the rule of a world bled dry.
And here is the full context of that quote in its unmodified form: http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ ... dober1.htm

-tammer
snakebrain
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Post by snakebrain »

Murfinator wrote:You're likely thinking I sound like a Romney campaign ad.
Uh huh - only stoopider. Your deliberate mis-spelling of your electoral opponents name utterly undermines your effort to appear like a 'reasonable human being', as well as depriving your position of dignity.
Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

Jeremy wrote:
Tammer in Philly wrote:If you're referring to me, I didn't miss the joke at all.
That said, some quick research by me indicates he might have a leg to stand on about FactCheck.org being run by people who are less than unbiased. Considering I found the info in 30 seconds indicates he could've easily done the same instead of pitching a fit, however.
Care to enlighten? Considering the source, my assumption is that Chris was saying Factcheck.org has a liberal bias. A quick Googling on my part turns up a few hits saying it's too liberal (and pushing for religious-site-based alternatives ...), and still more claims that it is slanted right (citing that the funding body, the Annenberg Foundation, is run by people who have contributed exclusively to republican political campaigns).

In my reading of the site and its well-documented information from primary sources, I believe it is not partisan. If anything, it does seem to go out of its way to knock the two candidates equally, equating bald-face lies on one side to statements that are contextually misleading on the other, which is (in my opinion) unfair. But overall, I'll take it in the absence of any revelatory examples to the contrary.

-tammer
wkohler
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Post by wkohler »

I've heard examples over the years of the way they interpret the facts they provide being less than accurate - after all, when you take hard facts or whatever and are using them to make an argument, you have to concede that you are interpreting said facts to fit your argument. I cannot remember specific ones save for a couple, but I could not find them in a Google search for the terms. I spent two minutes searching, but only found a bunch of crackpot tin-foil hat blogs that basically said factcheck.org, politifact and others were wrong. Read a couple and they had some BS argument based on something their buddy Dave or bff Jill said. Obviously, that's not good information. The time it would take to sift through all of the misinformation trying to find what I'm actually looking for, I don't have time for that, and I'm sure it would prove frustrating My problem isn't with the sources they provide or whatever, rather with the way the information is presented. I imagine they are trying to attract readers and to do that, I guess you're supposed to write in a critical fashion - after all, you're trying to get people to buy into what you're presenting, right? I think that a site which presents facts and claims to be neutral (which is something I'd always be skeptical of - if you're telling me you're neutral, you probably aren't) should be very boring and very deadpan in their delivery. Not, "Double Whopper, No Beef." I don't care if they do it for both sides. Just looking at the "about us" and the bios for all the people involved, they're pretty much all "journalists" which doesn't give them any credibility, really. The director of the center wrote a book that was directed towards Limbaugh, The WSJ and Fox News in 2008. I didn't read it or any of her others, but I cannot imagine that it's a neutral take on what they have to say. In the 22 years I've been exposed to Rush, I don't think he's ever claimed to be non-biased. I don't agree with everything he says, either.

My point is that because a site claims to be presenting facts and such, doesn't necessarily mean they are and I don't think they should be considered any better source than a news story. No single person or entity knows every single aspect about every single issue.
Murfinator
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Post by Murfinator »

Tammer- Here you’ve done nothing more than affirm your love of Chicago-style politics: hype and blame. Is it any wonder you’ve chosen the side of an individual like Obama? I’m sorry you’ve been so completely indoctrinated by the left and their socialist agenda. It never ceases to amaze me how much deceit people are willing to accept to maintain their own belief system… and you think to accuse me of bigotry and ignorance. No my friend, it’s time to take a hard look at your own information sources which have formed your belief structure. I’d like to know what those sources and what that background is? The internet is a very imperfect source of 'facts' and trustworthy information. Having a few Muslim friends also does not make one an expert on Islam, nor a course in World Religions.

Thank you for the link to the Pew report on Muslim Americans. However, you assumptions regarding my background are manifest by your strawman illusion of my own bigotry and isolation. You attempt to put words in my mouth (e.g. all Muslims are bad people and the US is perfect). For anyone to think every member of any religious group or culture is ‘bad’ is profoundly ignorant. That being said, have you or any of your Muslim friends studied or even read (cover to cover) the Koran? I’d be willing to bet, though I won’t assume as you have, you were born into a Christian home (Catholic or Protestant) but have yet to read the entire Bible cover to cover. Those being the more plausible case how can you claim to understand any religion having failed to take the time to grasp its doctrine much less reading the scriptures? This is the case with many Muslims. Like most Catholics and Protestants they leave the doctrine to the priests, clerics and attend services sporadically therefore attaining only a superficial grasp of the gospel. That may not be the case with you, for all I know you’re a lay minister, but I’m only stating the norm throughout society. Are you arguing this analysis does not at least equally apply to Muslims? The proof is in the new broadcasts where the world is repeatedly treated to displays of angry mobs burning cars, restaurants, flags, homes, throwing anything they can at police and chanting “death to …” Where are similar examples of Christians acting in similar manner in the past 200 years? There are countless books, videos, cartoons and commentaries proclaiming disparaging comments regarding Christian prophets and even Christ but you don’t hear anyone Christian groups making death threats (fatwas) against these individuals and organizations much less against entire countries as we’re now seeing against the United States as a whole. This proves there IS a fundamental doctrinal difference between Christianity and Islam.

“Self-aggrandizement”? Do you feel the United States is NOT better than the rest of the world with regard to our military might, technologic attainments, political system, charitable contributions, agriculture, etc… ? True, we are falling behind the rest of the world in some areas but we are the lone superpower and have done more to free the world in the past 200 years than any other nation in recorded history. I never stated nor implied the United States was perfect. That’s another strawman argument from the left.
Insular? That’s right. Of the twelve years I served active duty I only spent seven years overseas working with and training foreign military and civilian personnel in over a dozen countries.

So what is the background which informs your viewpoints?

Snakebrain: You’re Irish I assume (Belfast)? Perhaps if you lived in the United States and were better informed you would know that Hillary Clinton is not running for the office of president of the United States, therefore she is not as you’ve stated: a political opponent. She ran in the Democratic primaries four years ago against Obama. Billary is a contraction of Bill and Hillary and its use was intended. The two of them are master politicians whose background is an education in corruption and contradiction exemplified by liberal morality.

The blatant hypocrisy of the Dem’s is astonishing: they accuse Republicans and conservatives of a ‘war on women’ which they base on plans to defund Planned Parenthood (pushers of abortion as contraception and a complete waste of taxpayer funds) and ignorant comments made by a Missouri candidate for the senate (legitimate rape) which were blown way out of proportion while their own keynote address was made by a man who is a blatant and unrepentant adulterer, whoremonger, accused rapist and who was impeached in 1999 by the House of Representatives on two charges: perjury and obstruction of justice related to sexual relations and harassment. Are those the traits of a man who honors women? You can’t write this stuff, but the Democrats and especially liberals continue to adore Bill Clinton and his wife Hillary. The fact that Bill is out campaigning for Obama, a man he admittedly abhors, speaks volumes regarding his lack of character.
oldskool
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Post by oldskool »

With all due respect Dr. Tammer, . . .but it seems that you need to get laid.
Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

wkohler wrote:My point is that because a site claims to be presenting facts and such, doesn't necessarily mean they are and I don't think they should be considered any better source than a news story. No single person or entity knows every single aspect about every single issue.
I'll give that it is impossible for one site to be comprehensive, and that even given the same set of facts / primary sources, two people can disagree on their implications and how they are presented in context. I'll also grant that there are likely to be "sins of ommission," e.g. correcting every falsehood of one candidate and letting some slide for another.

However, even with those caveats, sites like factcheck.org and politifact.com do us the favor of directly linking and amassing the primary sources they cite in one place, so if you disagree with their conclusion, you can always look it up yourself and create and well-informed argument against it. That in itself is a service that saves a lot of effort. And if they're 90% accurate, that's far better than most.

-tammer
snakebrain
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Post by snakebrain »

Murfinator wrote:Snakebrain: You’re Irish I assume (Belfast)? Perhaps if you lived in the United States and were better informed you would know that Hillary Clinton is not running for the office of president of the United States, therefore she is not as you’ve stated: a political opponent.
I'm fully aware of who Bill and Hillary Clinton are. I'm not aware that Barack Obama ever spells his name 'Barak'.

Your rhetoric on the subject of Muslims is distasteful, inaccurate and inflammatory . You might be aware that there are some Muslims who are upstanding US citizens. Imagine yourself using the same rhetoric about Jews and just maybe you'll begin to see the hate and bile that infects your thoughts.
Murfinator wrote:Muslims HATE the United States. Period.
Murfinator
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Post by Murfinator »

snakebrain wrote:I'm fully aware of who Bill and Hillary Clinton are. I'm not aware that Barack Obama ever spells his name 'Barak'.
Murfinator wrote:Muslims HATE the United States. Period.
Sorry, honest mistake: Barack Hussein Obama. Happy now?

Let me also clarify my comments: not all Muslims hate the United States, however, their doctrine is not one of acceptance but rather coercion and advocacy of violence. I'm not referring to the 'extremists', this is core doctrine that many 'moderate' Muslims choose to overlook.

snakebrain: How do you feel about the United States? Are Muslims in your country getting along like the Catholics and Protestants? I'm interested especially since Ireland, my ancestral home, is a few years further along the path the United States is on, having received an 85 billion euro bailout in 2010. Not that we're going to receive an EU bailout but our financial situation is at least as dire.

I'm not voicing rhetoric. Go read the Koran and provide your take on what is plainly stated therein. Unfortunately it is distasteful is some instances. I neither stated nor intended any disrespect toward the decendants of Ishmael in general nor Muslims as a whole. I did point out how many if not most Muslims are like Christians who have but a superficial understanding of their religion and for the most part are good people. Let's keep ideology and people separate.
franky2fingaz
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Post by franky2fingaz »

I came to this site to find used BMWs, I never in 3 years clicked on the "general conversation" area, but now that I have I find some real ignorant distasteful material against Muslims, most DO NOT hate the US, most of us never take for granted where we are, matter if fact the ONLY folks I talk to that take this for granted are Saxon Americans them selves. With that, and not that anyone cares, will remove my self from this hate filled Forum. I can find shit about old German washing machines elsewhere, god bless and for the ignorant haters, I pray you see the reality of what's around you and not what what FOX tells you to do.... cheers
snakebrain
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Post by snakebrain »

Murfinator wrote:Sorry, honest mistake: Barack Hussein Obama. Happy now?
No. You were deliberately using a more 'Arabic' construction of that name, probably to hint at an alliance/affiliation between Obama and the Muslims you were accusing of hating America. It wasn't an honest mistake at all.
Murfinator wrote:Let me also clarify my comments: not all Muslims hate the United States.
You're flip-flopping badly here. Will I ask you again in 5 minutes and see how you feel about the matter then?
Murfinator wrote:snakebrain: How do you feel about the United States? Are Muslims in your country getting along like the Catholics and Protestants? I'm interested especially since Ireland, my ancestral home, is a few years further along the path the United States is on, having received an 85 billion euro bailout in 2010. Not that we're going to receive an EU bailout but our financial situation is at least as dire.
I feel pretty ok about the US. There are some things I like about it as a nation and some I don't - I think the people are generally warm-hearted, loyal and honest, but I'm not so keen on some of the belligerent foreign policy stuff. I like the idealism of the American Dream, but I'm not so keen on the pernicious influence of money in politics. I could go on, but I'm not entirely sure why this is relevant.

The few Muslims I know in this country seem to be getting along just fine. Saad, who works in the little shop round the corner from me, is saving for a car. He's getting there. My friend Ricky is in a more difficult situation - he's from Kosovo and misses his family. He doesn't want to go home though, because he wouldn't be able to support his little girl on the kind of work he could find. He is very glad that Western military powers stepped in when they did to prevent the situation there becoming even worse.

The Catholic/Protestant thing is generally working itself out. It'll take time but we'll get there.

I can't give you a first-hand account of living in Ireland post-EU intervention as I live in Belfast, which you're doubtless aware remains part of the UK to date. I'd have thought you'd have a fair idea how it feels to live in that environment after the latest FOMC meeting.
Murfinator wrote:I'm not voicing rhetoric. Go read the Koran and provide your take on what is plainly stated therein.
I have no intention of reading the Koran in anything other than a cursory way, but would urge you to read the published letters and other writings of Osama bin Laden if you're genuinely interested in that side of things. You might be very surprised at some of the content therein.

Keeping ideology and people separate, perhaps next time you'll remember how to spell the name of your President, even if he is a Democrat.
Murfinator
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Post by Murfinator »

snakebrain wrote:No. You were deliberately using a more 'Arabic' construction of that name, probably to hint at an alliance/affiliation between Obama and the Muslims you were accusing of hating America. It wasn't an honest mistake at all.
Though I have some first-hand experience in the area I do not speak Arabic. Believe what you will.
snakebrain wrote:You're flip-flopping badly here. Will I ask you again in 5 minutes and see how you feel about the matter then?
I suppose you've never restated a prior comment upon reflection? That's no 'flip-flopping' that's what we call clarification.
Murfinator wrote:I'm not voicing rhetoric. Go read the Koran and provide your take on what is plainly stated therein.
Thank you for your comments. You brought up Kosovo. I was part of that mission and spent six months on the ground there running checkpoints to keep people from killing each other and verifying the location of mass gravesites. We had many positive interactions with Muslims, Croat and Serbs. Also many not-so positive situations where women walked up to checkpoints to commit suicide with hand grenades or tossed them at our convoys as we passed. Ironic since we always took extra humanitarian MRE's to give to people along the roads.

Do you really think that all those years spent overseas in predominantly Muslim countries that I never researched the religion and writings of the clerics? One of my good friends was a HUMINT interrogator/translator and spoke Arabic fairly well. Aside from online research and daily briefings and intelligence summaries one of the books I've read regard this subject is The Al Qaeda Reader which contains translations of several of bin Laden's interviews and several of his messages to the Americans.

Here's a quote from Part 1:Theology by Ayman al-Zawahiri from 2002 The Foundations of Loyalty and Enmity in Islam. The Prohibition Against Befriending Infidels.
"Allah Most High said: "Let believers [Muslims] not take for friends and allies infidels [non-Muslims] rather than believers: whoever does this shall have no relationship left with Allah--unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions. But Allah cautions you [to fear] Himself. For the final goal is to Allah" [3:28]. Al-Tabari said [a prominent Muslim cleric scholar]: "The meaning of this, O believers, is that you are not to take infidels as helpers and sponsors; nor show consideration for their faith; nor enable them to overcome Muslims in preference to believers; nor reveal your weaknesses [to them]. For whoever does this shall receive nothing from Allah. And thus he abandons Allah and Allah abandons him, for he has left his faith and entered into [a state of] infidelity." (pg. 70).

Contrast this with the teachings of Christ as given in the New Testament regarding loving your enemies and praying for them that despitefully use and persecute you. True, not all Christians are perfect in adherance to their religion but we're talking about basic ideology here, contrasting the teachings not the practice. The Koran leaves the door open to deceit and hatred whereas Christianity forbids these practices explicitly, exhorting all men to love one another as themselves regardless of faith, race or any other factor to include violence against themselves as victims. Hatred for others, or enmity is never condoned.
snakebrain
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Post by snakebrain »

Murfinator wrote:
snakebrain wrote:No. You were deliberately using a more 'Arabic' construction of that name, probably to hint at an alliance/affiliation between Obama and the Muslims you were accusing of hating America. It wasn't an honest mistake at all.
Though I have some first-hand experience in the area I do not speak Arabic. Believe what you will.
snakebrain wrote:You're flip-flopping badly here. Will I ask you again in 5 minutes and see how you feel about the matter then?
I suppose you've never restated a prior comment upon reflection? That's no 'flip-flopping' that's what we call clarification.
I rarely make statements like this - 'Muslims HATE the United States. Period'. I find if I think before I open my mouth I am not often called on to eat my words.

Your asinine attempts to link Obama to Islam are, apart from anything else, disrespectful to the office he holds. Will you treat the Presidency with similiar disdain if your candidate is elected?
Murfinator
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Post by Murfinator »

snakebrain wrote:Your asinine attempts to link Obama to Islam are, apart from anything else, disrespectful to the office he holds. Will you treat the Presidency with similiar disdain if your candidate is elected?
Obama attempts to make people believe he's a Christian but as a member of Jeremiah Wright's congregation for what, 19 years? he can hardly be considered a Christian. There's enough hate in those sermons to make Zawahiri proud. Blatant anti-Americanism also. It's no wonder Obama asked Wright to remain quiet ($$$ supposedly helped with that) during the 2008 campaign. Obama also denied an affinity for Islam yet actions speak louder than words, especially from a politician seeking re-election: http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesar ... ?id=106938

Obviously a conservative bias but at least there are links providing the citations.
Kyle in NO
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Post by Kyle in NO »

franky2fingaz wrote:I came to this site to find used BMWs, I never in 3 years clicked on the "general conversation" area, but now that I have I find some real ignorant distasteful material against Muslims, most DO NOT hate the US, most of us never take for granted where we are, matter if fact the ONLY folks I talk to that take this for granted are Saxon Americans them selves. With that, and not that anyone cares, will remove my self from this hate filled Forum. I can find shit about old German washing machines elsewhere, god bless and for the ignorant haters, I pray you see the reality of what's around you and not what what FOX tells you to do.... cheers
Unfortunate you feel that way, this is a useful forum.
shagrath
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Post by shagrath »

Murfinator wrote:Tammer- Here you’ve done nothing more than affirm your love of Chicago-style politics: hype and blame. Is it any wonder you’ve chosen the side of an individual like Obama? I’m sorry you’ve been so completely indoctrinated by the left and their socialist agenda. It never ceases to amaze me how much deceit people are willing to accept to maintain their own belief system… and you think to accuse me of bigotry and ignorance. No my friend, it’s time to take a hard look at your own information sources which have formed your belief structure. I’d like to know what those sources and what that background is? The internet is a very imperfect source of 'facts' and trustworthy information. Having a few Muslim friends also does not make one an expert on Islam, nor a course in World Religions.

Thank you for the link to the Pew report on Muslim Americans. However, you assumptions regarding my background are manifest by your strawman illusion of my own bigotry and isolation. You attempt to put words in my mouth (e.g. all Muslims are bad people and the US is perfect). For anyone to think every member of any religious group or culture is ‘bad’ is profoundly ignorant. That being said, have you or any of your Muslim friends studied or even read (cover to cover) the Koran? I’d be willing to bet, though I won’t assume as you have, you were born into a Christian home (Catholic or Protestant) but have yet to read the entire Bible cover to cover. Those being the more plausible case how can you claim to understand any religion having failed to take the time to grasp its doctrine much less reading the scriptures? This is the case with many Muslims. Like most Catholics and Protestants they leave the doctrine to the priests, clerics and attend services sporadically therefore attaining only a superficial grasp of the gospel. That may not be the case with you, for all I know you’re a lay minister, but I’m only stating the norm throughout society. Are you arguing this analysis does not at least equally apply to Muslims? The proof is in the new broadcasts where the world is repeatedly treated to displays of angry mobs burning cars, restaurants, flags, homes, throwing anything they can at police and chanting “death to …” Where are similar examples of Christians acting in similar manner in the past 200 years? There are countless books, videos, cartoons and commentaries proclaiming disparaging comments regarding Christian prophets and even Christ but you don’t hear anyone Christian groups making death threats (fatwas) against these individuals and organizations much less against entire countries as we’re now seeing against the United States as a whole. This proves there IS a fundamental doctrinal difference between Christianity and Islam.

“Self-aggrandizement”? Do you feel the United States is NOT better than the rest of the world with regard to our military might, technologic attainments, political system, charitable contributions, agriculture, etc… ? True, we are falling behind the rest of the world in some areas but we are the lone superpower and have done more to free the world in the past 200 years than any other nation in recorded history. I never stated nor implied the United States was perfect. That’s another strawman argument from the left.
Insular? That’s right. Of the twelve years I served active duty I only spent seven years overseas working with and training foreign military and civilian personnel in over a dozen countries.

So what is the background which informs your viewpoints?

Snakebrain: You’re Irish I assume (Belfast)? Perhaps if you lived in the United States and were better informed you would know that Hillary Clinton is not running for the office of president of the United States, therefore she is not as you’ve stated: a political opponent. She ran in the Democratic primaries four years ago against Obama. Billary is a contraction of Bill and Hillary and its use was intended. The two of them are master politicians whose background is an education in corruption and contradiction exemplified by liberal morality.

The blatant hypocrisy of the Dem’s is astonishing: they accuse Republicans and conservatives of a ‘war on women’ which they base on plans to defund Planned Parenthood (pushers of abortion as contraception and a complete waste of taxpayer funds) and ignorant comments made by a Missouri candidate for the senate (legitimate rape) which were blown way out of proportion while their own keynote address was made by a man who is a blatant and unrepentant adulterer, whoremonger, accused rapist and who was impeached in 1999 by the House of Representatives on two charges: perjury and obstruction of justice related to sexual relations and harassment. Are those the traits of a man who honors women? You can’t write this stuff, but the Democrats and especially liberals continue to adore Bill Clinton and his wife Hillary. The fact that Bill is out campaigning for Obama, a man he admittedly abhors, speaks volumes regarding his lack of character.
:clap:
Murfinator
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Post by Murfinator »

Great article by Bret Stephens appearing in the Wall Street Journal yesterday entitled: Muslims, Mormons and Liberals. Why is it OK to mock one religion but not another?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087 ... stpop_read

If you can read this article and not see the blatant hypocisy of the Obama administration and the liberal left you must be deaf, dumb and blind.

'Hasa Diga Eebowai" is the hit number in Broadway's hit musical "The Book of Mormon," which won nine Tony awards last year. What does the phrase mean? I can't tell you, because it's unprintable in a family newspaper.

On the other hand, if you can afford to shell out several hundred bucks for a seat, then you can watch a Mormon missionary get his holy book stuffed—well, I can't tell you about that, either. Let's just say it has New York City audiences roaring with laughter.

The "Book of Mormon"—a performance of which Hillary Clinton attended last year, without registering a complaint—comes to mind as the administration falls over itself denouncing "Innocence of Muslims." This is a film that may or may not exist; whose makers are likely not who they say they are; whose actors claim to have known neither the plot nor purpose of the film; and which has never been seen by any member of the public except as a video clip on the Internet.

No matter. The film, the administration says, is "hateful and offensive" (Susan Rice), "reprehensible and disgusting" (Jay Carney) and, in a twist, "disgusting and reprehensible" (Hillary Clinton). Mr. Carney, the White House spokesman, also lays sole blame on the film for inciting the riots that have swept the Muslim world and claimed the lives of Ambassador Chris Stevens and three of his staff in Libya.

So let's get this straight: In the consensus view of modern American liberalism, it is hilarious to mock Mormons and Mormonism but outrageous to mock Muslims and Islam. Why? Maybe it's because nobody has ever been harmed, much less killed, making fun of Mormons.

Here's what else we learned this week about the emerging liberal consensus: That it's okay to denounce a movie you haven't seen, which is like trashing a book you haven't read. That it's okay to give perp-walk treatment to the alleged—and no doubt terrified—maker of the film on legally flimsy and politically motivated grounds of parole violation. That it's okay for the federal government publicly to call on Google to pull the video clip from YouTube in an attempt to mollify rampaging Islamists. That it's okay to concede the fundamentalist premise that religious belief ought to be entitled to the highest possible degree of social deference—except when Mormons and sundry Christian rubes are concerned.

And, finally, this: That the most "progressive" administration in recent U.S. history will make no principled defense of free speech to a Muslim world that could stand hearing such a defense. After the debut of "The Book of Mormon" musical, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints responded with this statement: "The production may attempt to entertain audiences for an evening but the Book of Mormon as a volume of scripture will change people's lives forever by bringing them closer to Christ."

That was it. The People's Front for the Liberation of Provo will not be gunning for a theater near you. Is it asking too much of religious and political leaders in Muslim communities to adopt a similar attitude?

It needn't be. A principled defense of free speech could start by quoting the Quran: "And it has already come down to you in the Book that when you hear the verses of Allah [recited], they are denied [by them] and ridiculed; so do not sit with them until they enter into another conversation." In this light, the true test of religious conviction is indifference, not susceptibility, to mockery.

The defense could add that a great religion surely cannot be goaded into frenetic mob violence on the slimmest provocation. Yet to watch the images coming out of Benghazi, Cairo, Tunis and Sana'a is to witness some significant portion of a civilization being transformed into Travis Bickle, the character Robert De Niro made unforgettable in Taxi Driver. "You talkin' to me?"

A defense would also point out that an Islamic world that insists on a measure of religious respect needs also to offer that respect in turn. When Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi—the closest thing Sunni Islam has to a pope—praises Hitler for exacting "divine punishment" on the Jews, that respect isn't exactly apparent. Nor has it been especially apparent in the waves of Islamist-instigated pogroms that have swept Egypt's Coptic community in recent years.

Finally, it need be said that the whole purpose of free speech is to protect unpopular, heretical, vulgar and stupid views. So far, the Obama administration's approach to free speech is that it's fine so long as it's cheap and exacts no political price. This is free speech as pizza.

President Obama came to office promising that he would start a new conversation with the Muslim world, one that lectured less and listened more. After nearly four years of listening, we can now hear more clearly where the U.S. stands in the estimation of that world: equally despised but considerably less feared. Just imagine what four more years of instinctive deference will do.

On the bright side, dear liberals, you'll still be able to mock Mormons. They tend not to punch back, which is part of what makes so many of them so successful in life.
Mike W.
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Post by Mike W. »

Murfinator wrote: So let's get this straight: In the consensus view of modern American liberalism, it is hilarious to mock Mormons and Mormonism but outrageous to mock Muslims and Islam.
I'm about as liberal as you want to meet and I wish every newspaper in the world would mock the lower case prophet. Maybe then the hypersensitive would get over it. How can fanatics be madder at the world than already mad at the world. And how many holy sites can there be for one religion?

The defense could add that a great religion surely cannot be goaded into frenetic mob violence on the slimmest provocation.
Any religion with so many adherents who claim said religion gives them not license, but direction to kill/hate/injure/??? anyone who disagrees, is an inferior religion, not a great one. I am emphatically not saying all are bad or want to do those things, but the intolerant nutcases in the western world, aren't even in the same solar system of intolerance and evil as many people who think some guy named Mohamed is the end all, be all.

Liberalism is tolerance, not acceptance of intolerance. Just because it's different doesn't make it bad. Nor does it make it good or even acceptable.
snakebrain
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Post by snakebrain »

To outside eyes it is as bizarre as it is repellent. A single event, book, cartoon, film or teddy bear, which represents nothing but its originator, who may not even be American, sparks lethal outbursts of mass protest. What, to prejudiced Westerners, could better exemplify Muslim backwardness and depravity?
http://www.economist.com/node/21562960? ... c30b6f1709
wkohler
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Post by wkohler »

Murfinator wrote: If you can read this article and not see the blatant hypocisy of the Obama administration and the liberal left you must be deaf, dumb and blind.
You could still be really good a pinball, though, right?
Mike W.
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Post by Mike W. »

wkohler wrote:
Murfinator wrote: If you can read this article and not see the blatant hypocisy of the Obama administration and the liberal left you must be deaf, dumb and blind.
You could still be really good a pinball, though, right?
Who???

Chris, my complements on your musical knowledge, that was before your time. ;)
wkohler
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Post by wkohler »

Mike, where have you been? Music from the mid-sixties through the '80s is essentially all I listen to. I have every Who album through "It's Hard," though only the later ones on vinyl. I used to listen to "Tommy" at least once a week. Since it's been a couple years, I guess I will tonight, too.
Mike W.
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Post by Mike W. »

I knew you were into music on some level and even fondness for vinyl records, but I didn't know exactly what. Kudos though. :up:
davintosh
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Post by davintosh »

Mike W. wrote:Liberalism is tolerance, not acceptance of intolerance...
:hysterical:

You guys crack me up! :hysterical:
Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

I'm not going to bother responding to your later posts in this thread, which simply reiterate your position from an egregiously skewed POV. I feel sorry for you and the amount of hatred you harbor. It's irrational, and I hope you someday get over it.
Murfinator wrote:Tammer- Here you’ve done nothing more than affirm your love of Chicago-style politics: hype and blame. Is it any wonder you’ve chosen the side of an individual like Obama?
I like how moving to Chicago and embracing a wonderful city with a fantastic culture has made me a "lover of Chicago-style politics." Clearly a good way to start your argument.
Murfinator wrote: Having a few Muslim friends also does not make one an expert on Islam, nor a course in World Religions.
Perhaps not, but multiple courses in religious philosophy, extensive reading on personal time, and half a family of Muslims probably makes me more informed than a terrified bigot in the most homogenous state in the nation.
Murfinator wrote: I’d be willing to bet, though I won’t assume as you have, you were born into a Christian home (Catholic or Protestant) but have yet to read the entire Bible cover to cover. Those being the more plausible case how can you claim to understand any religion having failed to take the time to grasp its doctrine much less reading the scriptures? This is the case with many Muslims. Like most Catholics and Protestants they leave the doctrine to the priests, clerics and attend services sporadically therefore attaining only a superficial grasp of the gospel. That may not be the case with you, for all I know you’re a lay minister, but I’m only stating the norm throughout society. Are you arguing this analysis does not at least equally apply to Muslims? The proof is in the new broadcasts where the world is repeatedly treated to displays of angry mobs burning cars, restaurants, flags, homes, throwing anything they can at police and chanting “death to …” Where are similar examples of Christians acting in similar manner in the past 200 years?

This proves there IS a fundamental doctrinal difference between Christianity and Islam.
Your bet is wrong. I have read the Bible cover to cover, as well as the Koran, as well as many texts from other religions. I've done so unburdened by the view that one is right and the others are wrong, allowing me to see the hypocrisy and absurdity in virtually all of them.

Your qualification of "the last 200 years" is certainly convenient. Anyone sufficiently motivated can study history--recent and less so--and find examples of Christian religious violence.

You also have a correlation / causation error. I'll leave it to you to figure out. Hint: read my signature, then look at the macro situation of most of the violent Muslims you see in the news.
Murfinator wrote: Insular? That’s right. Of the twelve years I served active duty I only spent seven years overseas working with and training foreign military and civilian personnel in over a dozen countries.

So what is the background which informs your viewpoints?
It is of great concern to me that you, an unabashed bigot, fear mongerer, and liar, are in a position to train anyone on anything. I suppose you are partially responsible for the news I read regarding the military pushing a blatantly pro-Christian, anti-Muslim agenda, then?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ma ... slam-enemy
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1004/p13s02-lire.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-milita ... FqQ944hOkQ

I'm done with this thread, though I'll point out that, true to form, Matt has applauded hatred while adding no original thoughts. Must be blissful over there. I'm also done with you, Murfinator, as it's clear you do not speak from a position of rationality.

-tammer
Murfinator
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Post by Murfinator »

Tammer: My Chicago quip was a taste of your own assumptive comments (e.g. "skewed POV, hatred, irrational"). Don't like it? Neither do I. You're a victim of the very attributes someone, you?, complained of the Republican party of suffering from. Wasn't it something like "if someone doesn't accept your views they must be irrational". Something like that.

I applaud your attempts at being truly liberal and not 'liberal'. You are an outlier in the company of fools and empty-headed 'do-gooders'. Thanks for the sympathy but it's unrequited. I believe your smart enough to know better yet choose not to.

If all I've accomplished herein was to solidify my skewed point of view and waste your time then it's time well spent. On the more productive front I made ~100 calls to voters in Ohio and Colorado this evening (and installed fuel injectors in a custom rail and sexy B36 ITB's). If their responses are any indication Obama is going to be looking for a job come January. :alright:
1st 5er
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Post by 1st 5er »

Very distasteful...
http://lyrics.wikia.com/Michael_Potts:Hasa_Diga_Eebowai
... but sounds like the cry of some here.
WilNJ
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Post by WilNJ »

davintosh wrote:
Mike W. wrote:Liberalism is tolerance, not acceptance of intolerance...
:hysterical:

You guys crack me up! :hysterical:
Murfinator wrote:truly liberal and not 'liberal'.
Ah, someone who understands the difference.

Murf, I won't say I agree with everything and maybe not even a lot of what you've said here, but I do appreciate that.

And thanks for the WSJ piece. I heard discussion of that last night on local radio but wasn't able to find it.
shagrath
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Post by shagrath »

Murfinator wrote:Wasn't it something like "if someone doesn't accept your views they must be irrational". Something like that.
That's how I feel everytime I comment that I believe in God, creationism (the science of the Big Bang Theory and the expanding universe), and Biblically based viewpoints. I am "irrational". I don't call unbelievers "irrational", or "satanist" or even atheist or agnostic (because of the differences one can't accurately pinpoint on such a forum with little true info into their beliefs).

Such is life I suppose. I still love my car though...
davintosh
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Post by davintosh »

Murfinator wrote:... On the more productive front I made ~100 calls to voters in Ohio and Colorado this evening (and installed fuel injectors in a custom rail and sexy B36 ITB's). If their responses are any indication Obama is going to be looking for a job come January.
Good job, Murf! All indications are that Obama will suffer a staggering defeat in November. The mainstream media is working their tails off to make it look like he's doing well, but if it weren't for their efforts and Ben Bernanke's antics with the Fed, Obama's numbers would be in the gutter. Heck, rumor has it that he's already prepping a new family home in Hawaii; looks like he doesn't even expect to win.

And don't fret too much about Tammer; having him call you names is considered a badge of honor for most people around here.



Back to the original topic of this thread... Whaddya know; the White House has actually accepted the obvious. :facepalm:
"It is self-evident that what happened in Benghazi was a terrorist attack," White House spokesman Jay Carney told reporters travelling with President Barack Obama. "Our embassy was attacked violently and the result was four deaths of American officials."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/ ... YI20120920

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/09/20/the ... ya-attack/
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