Noob M30B35 Build

[VW+bimmer=bliss]

The reason my new front crank seal had started to leak was due to the fact I pressed it in slightly crooked.

[tig]

In prep for taking care of the oil leaks I'm putting together a parts order. I noticed on RealOEM a "shim" I've never noticed before. Part #3 in this diagram.



PN 11141252897

I don't recall this shim being on either of the two donor motors we pulled apart. The overhaul manual does not mention it. What's the deal?

[tig]

If the front crank seal were leaking, would oil be accumulating in the crank pulley? Makes no sense to me. I'd think oil would just be dripping from the lower timing chain cover, between it and the pulley.

There is definitely oil filling up the crank pulley...and the rest of the front of the engine (except a tad up by the upper timing chain cover, which could be splatter from the pully) is clean.

[athayer187]

The "shim" is probably for replacement seals only - to ensure the seal stays at a different depth than the original. None of the motors I've taken apart have had it either (B35 and a few B34's).

[pleasefixitup]

It is the lower corners of the UPPER timing cover (where they meet the headgasket) which need an extra dab of gasket sealer (permatex)
That spot is prone to leaks on the B34 motor.
The front main seal is kind of annoying to press in. It may go in crooked, I hope you got an extra seal!

The lower timing cover is much more annoying than the upper to re-gasket and seal.
I have a thread somewhere here where I did all of this work. I broke a bolt off in the timing cover and thus did some more work.

[tig]

It is the lower corners of the UPPER timing cover (where they meet the headgasket) which need an extra dab of gasket sealer (permatex)
That spot is prone to leaks on the B34 motor.
The front main seal is kind of annoying to press in. It may go in crooked, I hope you got an extra seal!

The lower timing cover is much more annoying than the upper to re-gasket and seal.
I have a thread somewhere here where I did all of this work. I broke a bolt off in the timing cover and thus did some more work.

Thanks for the tips.

The old B34 had that leak at the lower corner of the upper timing cover. I 'fixed' it with some FIPG externally...amazingly it held.

I'm ordering all new gaskets and seals. When I pull the engine and have a look-see, I'll be prepared to re-do all of it if needed. Sucks, but it's gotta be done.

[tig]

Today Vlad went back on the Dyno at Carb Connection in Kirkland, WA.

The primary goal today was to get the tune right; with the MAF and Miller WAR chip I was running lean and I didn't know enough to really adjust it myself. The secondary goal was for Alex at Carb Connection to educate/train me. The third goal was to see if we could get the 200+rwhp that we expected.

All three goals were met!



I wished I would have known that the dyno didn't pick up all the data during the final runs, but the important parts are there.

203 rear-wheel horsepower and 226 rear-wheel ft-lbs torque.

To recap:

The original B34 that was in Vlad (which is for sale!) put out a respectable 173 rwhp and 188 rwtq. Un-tuned, with a stock 179 ECU and AFM, the B35 put out 196 rwhp/216 rwtq.

I'm quite happy with these numbers and even happier with the way the car is running.

The crappy Miller WAR software makes me jones for a Megasquirt now that I actually know something. The idea that you can tune in real-time is pretty appealing. Maybe that will be a future project.

[Mab1957]

... There's oil coming from the front of the engine.

The weirdest part is the crank pulley is basically FULL OF OIL. There's also some oil up by the bottom of the distributor cover. I need to clean and test some more, but I think there are two problems:

1) Something is leaking up by the timing covers.
2) Somehow the front main seal is leaking into the crank pully?!?!?

The second one is the weirdest to me. Is that even possible?

I obviously made at least two gross mistakes putting it together, maybe three. At this point I'm resigned to pulling the engine out of the car and re-doing all of the seals and gaskets. I thought I was doing the right thing using the gasket stuff I used, but based on prior comments from a few of you (thanks!) I now know I should have used Permatex #3.

It's funny; I'm not even that bummed out about this. I guess there IS a river named De Nile.

My mechanic helped me reseal the Getrag. He used "the right stuff" by permatex (is that #3?) to put a very thin seal at the rear output shaft nut and on the front seal housing. He said it is the "correct shit" to use for applications like what you're encountering. It seems highly unlikely to me that oil could spin out through the threads at the front crank hub, but maybe?? Would a skin of the "correct shit" prevent seepage to the inside of the crank pulley?




BTW that nut was a mo fo to get loose (3/4 drive inpact on a skinny 30mm)
His boat motor

[tig]

Sigh.



I mean, it's not that big of a deal, now that I'm already committed to pulling the engine out again and re-sealing it, but it just hurts knowing I effed up so bad putting it together. At this rate, pretty soon, every seam on the whole damn thing will be leaking oil.

[Kyle in NO]

Is there a gasket in there, or just orange rtv?

[tig]

Is there a gasket in there, or just orange rtv?

Yes, there's a gasket.

[dsmith]

Man, I genuinely feel bad for you. At least your tailshaft nut came loose. I can't seem to get that to happen on my 280.

[tig]

After replacing my fuel filter & fuel pump (out of tank), I've been driving the last two days using a tune that someone (Brody?) created specifically for a build like mine (10:1, N21 Cam, Miller G3 MAF, Headers).

Since the WAR software is so antiquated (but at least supports copy/paste), I created an Excel sheet that would let me visualize the maps better. Top is the tune I created on the dyno that I've been running since. The bottom is the "Tim" tune. As you can see the my fuel map is wonky and we had to retard timing in the 4200-5400 range to get rid of ping.


With "Tim" I still get a very, very slight amount of pinging at about 2000rpm under load (when the engine is basically lugging). Besides that not a peep can be heard and the wideband shows goodness at both P/T and WOT. The car feels GREAT. And with this tune, the slight hesitation I was seeing at 4000rpm is gone (which now makes sense given the retardation we had to do which is now no longer needed due to better fuel flow).

I hereby declare I'm an idiot for not replacing the fuel pump/filter earlier. Live & learn.

(I've also upped the priority of replacing the in-tank pump; I'll get to it asap.)

[Bav3.5]

Great to hear! I'm glad your trouble shooting efforts were successfuI and the tune helped. I wonder what your torque numbers would now be on the dyno.

Tim

[unt0uchable]

Great to hear! I'm glad your trouble shooting efforts were successfuI and the tune helped. I wonder what your torque numbers would now be on the dyno.

Tim

I bet it won't be long before we find out. This thread is still full of win.

[tig]

FWIW, the pinging condition is still not completely resolved. I have found that I STILL have to up the fuel (165) in that 1800-2600 range to avoid pinging with partial throttle under load. We went to dinner Sunday night with both my wife & daughter in the car and the additional weight made it more pronounced. I've since been able to replicate it by choosing a taller gear on hills.

I'm going to put in a Walbro in-tank pump next.

Signed,

Slightly frustrated in Seattle.

[Kyle in NO]

If you haven't noticed the Miller tuning sucks. Can you pull out some timing below 2500rpm?

[Mike W.]

Is there a gasket in there, or just orange rtv?

Yes, there's a gasket.

A little late but in case you are going to but haven't done it yet. You want a paper gasket, not cork, and Permatex #3, not RTV. RTV is rarely the correct product for the job, it's misused 99%+ of the time and just makes a mess. Paper gasket, not cork.

[tig]

Is there a gasket in there, or just orange rtv?

Yes, there's a gasket.

A little late but in case you are going to but haven't done it yet. You want a paper gasket, not cork, and Permatex #3, not RTV. RTV is rarely the correct product for the job, it's misused 99%+ of the time and just makes a mess. Paper gasket, not cork.

Actually, thanks. I have a second cork gasket and was planning on using P#3 if I choose to actually pull the engine. For now, I tightened all the pan bolts and it's not leaking anymore. However the rear seal still is. When I pull the tranny to fix that I will decide whether to pull the engine too.

[trevmmeister]

I dream that one day I too can talk about pulling an engine from a car as though it is no bigger a task than buying groceries...

[Mike W.]

I dream that one day I too can talk about pulling an engine from a car as though it is no bigger a task than buying groceries...

I've done dozens on all sorts of cars and I don't talk about it that way. Nor think about it. A head maybe, an engine, no way.

[tig]

I dream that one day I too can talk about pulling an engine from a car as though it is no bigger a task than buying groceries...

I've done dozens on all sorts of cars and I don't talk about it that way. Nor think about it. A head maybe, an engine, no way.

I'm just delusional and in denial.

[tig]

Tonight I replaced the in-tank pump with the Airtext unit I bought on Amazon ($98.21).

I have also purchased a Walbro GSS340 255lhp pump and adapter kit and I plan on using the OE pump hanger assembly to adapt it. I wanted to try a more standard setup first, to see if it had any impact on fuel flow and my knocking problem. Here's the Airtext kit next to the Walbro and it's kit:



Step 1 is to unplug the connectors and hoses from the top of the pump assembly in the trunk.


Next I wanted to replace the hoses since I believe they were original. Someone suggested that you could pull the new ones by tying them to the old. I decided a few zip ties would work well. I didn't know whether it was better to pull from the trunk or below; I just decided to pull from the trunk.



To reduce chance of a snag, I wrapped with some electrical tape.


I started pulling, but found I had to go back under the car and "push rope" every 6-8" or so to keep it from binding.


Ta-da:


Didn't know this, but to remove the pump assembly you have to remove the fuel level sensor first.


I was sort expecting the filter to look awful. Pretty damn clean!


I used my endoscope to look around in the tank. I didn't want to put it in too far... you know the whole electricity near gas thing... but it shows that the inside of this tank is damn clean. I've never looked in a fuel tank before so I don't have much to compare it too, but that looks pretty nice to me. Note I ran the car down to the point where the fuel warning light was on before doing this job.
Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O83oa4amAyM

Connected up the new hoses up top and down below, after cutting to the right length. You don't actually have to remove the main pump completely to do this job. You can release it and the filter in their little bracket and then pop the cap off the inlet end to access the hose.


FWIW, the OE pump is on the right. It is slightly taller than the Airtex pump (maybe 5-7mm?). This means the Airtext will die on you when very low on gas before the OE pump will.


When I get some more time I will build the Walbro setup. The trick is (apparently) shortening the tube on the hanger and building a reducer to the pump outlet that will hold the pressure.


Went for a quick drive to get gas (praying I didn't run out on the way). On the way back home I did some testing and I THINK the pinging may be better, but I didn't drive enough to really be able to test it. Tomorrow...

[Kyle in NO]

If you haven't noticed the Miller tuning sucks. Can you pull out some timing below 2500rpm?

Your pinging issue is going to be directly related to your tuning. M30 engines don't ping at low rpm unless timing is off.

[tig]

If you haven't noticed the Miller tuning sucks. Can you pull out some timing below 2500rpm?

Your pinging issue is going to be directly related to your tuning. M30 engines don't ping at low rpm unless timing is off.

Wish someone had pointed this out earlier.

After replacing the fuel pumps and testing more I was still getting pinging.

Yesterday I backed off timing in the 1800-3000 range by, first 10% and then 5%. At 10% I'm pretty confident all pinging is gone. At 5% I can just barely get it to knock right below 2000. I'm going to tweak that spot just a little and should be good to go.

Note, that I had thought I fixed this before with more fuel, so don't be surprised if I come back still frustrated.

[tig]

So far so good. I tweaked it this morning to remove a bit of timing at 1800rpm and think it's now nailed. Here's how this tweaked map compares to the map that works on Tim's car.



Area with bold numbers is where my map now differs.

It's nice being able to chug around in this low RPM range and not be petrified of knock. Previously I was constantly having to stir the gears to avoid that region. I actually didn't realize how used to doing it I had gotten!

[trevmmeister]

Incase you ever sell Vlad, I call dibs.

[Kyle in NO]

Incase you ever sell Vlad, I call dibs.

I doubt that.

[turbodan]

Those are ignition advance angles right? In degrees? No offset? 50+ degrees in the mid load range is a hell of a lot.

[tig]

Those are ignition advance angles right? In degrees? No offset? 50+ degrees in the mid load range is a hell of a lot.

From the WAR manual:

Ignition is displayed in the GUI as actual timing in degrees. If it says 14, you are running
14 degrees of timing BTDC (advance).
If it says -14, you are running 14 degrees of timing ATDC (extremely retarded timing)